Take The Shot?

[The Rabbi]

Yesterday a new customer came in and started chatting. Turns out he works part time as a clerk at Tolivers Pawn in Madison. The store had been robbed the preceding day.

As he told it, he waiting on two female customers when 3 guys came in. One of them had a gun (although it wasnt apparent at the time he was the only one armed) and held it at the boss who was down on the floor.

I've been there a couple of times and I know the counter runs about 20 feet and I assume my customer was at the other end.

The customer was armed with a .32 Tomcat. He considered his options and opted for not drawing the gun, ending up on the floor with a gun to his head. His boss got shot in the arm, the robbers went off and were caught within minutes, with all good recovered.

I sympathize that he was in a tough tough position, outnumbered (as far as he knew), with innocent bystanders around, and his boss in a precarious position.

So let's Mon AM quarterback. What would you do?

[TGO David]

I would have carried a bigger gun, for starters. A .32 caliber handgun is going to just piss someone off unless you get them in the head.

[Im Neero]

With a .32 Tomcat and multiple badguys, I would do just what the guy did, given the circumstances. If I had my .45 on me then it might be different, but it's hard to say without being there.

[Marswolf]

One question. At what point was the boss shot in the arm? At that point I would have considered firing. But I agree, a .32 isn't enough to carry in those situations. Even if hit in the head, the round might not penetrate the cranial vault.

[The Rabbi]

One question. At what point was the boss shot in the arm? At that point I would have considered firing. But I agree, a .32 isn't enough to carry in those situations. Even if hit in the head, the round might not penetrate the cranial vault.

A .32acp should certainly penetrate the skull at that range. But the head is a tough target, small and faster moving than the body.

FWIW, he tells me he now carries his Kimber at work.

[molonlabetn]

To me, it's a choice which depends on how clear of a shot I might have, and how much cover I might be able to give myself. It seems in this situation that there was pretty much equal potential for getting shot whether or not one were to draw, I would personally much rather do my best to keep them far enough away to prevent it from being an easy execution.

There are some situations in which it might not be prudent to draw and fire, and I respect the choice of the person who was there and had to make it for themself... I may or may not have done the same thing. Probably not, especially if the armed person took a shot (as he did).

A .32acp should certainly penetrate the skull at that range. But the head is a tough target, small and faster moving than the body.

FWIW, he tells me he now carries his Kimber at work.

The combination of .32acp and the inaccurate, unreliable Tomcat platform is not conducive to confidence one's likelihood for successful self-defense... It is little better than a contact-distance gun.

Let's see, so the lessons learned in this instance... pocket gun = low confidence, so, a larger pistol chambered for a more powerful cartridge is desirable. This leads me to believe, based on this reaction, that a major portion of this fellow's decision to not shoot was based on what he was armed with... So, it would follow that this fellow would have been more likely to step-up if he had been armed with his Kimber at the time of the encounter... I agree with that, and it serves as a lesson that the most important part of carrying is not only carrying a gun, but carrying a gun which one has confidence in.

[Marswolf]

A .32acp should certainly penetrate the skull at that range.

I have a video of the results of an execution killing. The .32 was fired into the side of the head at point blank but did not penetrate. The next shot, through the left eye did.

[The Rabbi]

I have a video of the results of an execution killing. The .32 was fired into the side of the head at point blank but did not penetrate. The next shot, through the left eye did.

And that proves what exactly? I have heard of 9mm point blank not penetrating a skull. Anything can happen.

[Marswolf]

I have heard of 9mm point blank not penetrating a skull.

I'll bet my life...it happens a lot more with a .32 than a 9mm.

[Mike.357]

Not there so with not knowing what was actually happening it is hard to determine what I would have done. I like to think that once a shot was fired I would figure the executions were on and there was nothing to lose by trying to pull the weapon and use it.

Even a crappy .32 beats a prayer at that point

[saintsfanbrian]

You may love them or you may hate them, but at this distance described I KNOW I could hit the target with my G19, I also have the utmost confidence in my abilities with my Beretta. Since I haven't fired the XD yet I don't know how good I am with it. This is why it is still sitting in the safe.

[The Rabbi]

I know I could hit the target at that distance too, on a range or in competition or training. And if I cant then either I get points down or have to redo it.

In real life it doesnt work that way. I do not know I could hit a moving target with non-threats possibly in the way and a lot distraction in under probably 1 sec. Would I try it? I dont know. I hope never to find out.

[TGO David]

I know I could hit the target at that distance too, on a range or in competition or training. And if I cant then either I get points down or have to redo it.

In real life it doesnt work that way. I do not know I could hit a moving target with non-threats possibly in the way and a lot distraction in under probably 1 sec. Would I try it? I dont know. I hope never to find out.

You should shoot a USPSA match some time. Especially out in Dickson where they tend to have moving targets. It's good "training" for those scenarios.

[Guest Phantom6]

...The combination of .32acp and the inaccurate, unreliable Tomcat platform is not conducive to confidence one's likelihood for successful self-defense... It is little better than a contact-distance gun.

Let's see, so the lessons learned in this instance... pocket gun = low confidence, so, a larger pistol chambered for a more powerful cartridge is desirable...

Based on my own experience with the Beretta Tomcat I would have to strongly disagree with you regarding the accuracy and reliability of the firearm. It is certainly much more than a "contact-distance gun". A head shot is not the shot you want to make with a Tomcat anyway unless you can get the shot placed into the occular cavity area which is certainly do-able within 7-10 yds if you are familiar with the weapon. Anywhere else on the head is a gamble even with larger cal. ammunition. I have seen .38 spcl. strike the back of the skull, travel around it between the skull and the skin and exit the face leaving the victim bloodied and with a terrible headache but up and around in a day or two. I know a former police officer that took 5 rounds that way and is a photographer today. The Tomcat carries 7 (6 & 1) rounds and should be used as a chest thumper or for a pelvic shot. Lots of very important soft tissue and arterial/venous traffic in both areas.

As far as confidence goes, I have very high confidence in my .32 Tomcat and my .32 Seecamp. Of course I practice regularly with them. Yes a larger caliber would be preferable but there are times when you just can't secret something as large as a .38, .40 or .45 away. So with understanding the use for the tool and practice you are covered.

All in all, given the limited information regarding the incident as a whole or the experience of the Tomcat toter in particular, I would say that they guy made the right decision.

[saintsfanbrian]

I guess I should add that since I am not in the situation I don't KNOW how I would react, though I still suspect that your friend did the right thing at least up until the boss was actually shot. All bets were off then because you don't know if the fool is going after you next or not. As long as the gun was being used only as an intimidation factor, let the insurance deal with it. Once it was actually a tool to do harm, do what you have to do and he felt it safest to sit low.

[molonlabetn]

I'm sure that not all Tomcats consistently jam, but all of the ones I have seen fired, and fired myself, did jam repeatedly. And, though I am sure that one could certainly hit a man-sized target at the ranges described with a Tomcat... there is no way that I would put much stock in that platform and that caliber effectively stopping someone who will be returning fire at me in short order, with just a peripheral hit (as opposed to a more powerful caliber which will at least destroy a significant chunk of flesh). Even if I hit them, .32acp is not likely to provide rapid incapacitation without a precise hit on a very soft, vital area... and I find that realistically unlikely in the scenario described.

[The Rabbi]

You should shoot a USPSA match some time. Especially out in Dickson where they tend to have moving targets. It's good "training" for those scenarios.

I shoot IDPA frequently and we often have moving targets. I hate them. (strangely I love steel targets) But those targets move in at least predictable ways. A person doesnt do that.

We had a stage just last week with about 6 targets, one of them moving with 2 non-threats. I ended up losing count and left one target untouched, earning a high point count in the process. It is just very confusing focusing on that much at once. Add in every target moving and a lot of screaming and loud noise and it would be a tough tough situation.

[Guest looneeetunes]

yeah i think a 32 is better than a rock and a slingshot, but to say whether or not i would have drawn is hard to say. the out numbered part is a concern, but the concern i would have had the most was where were the bystanders in relation to the three.i carry a 45 and would have no problem taking on three (in my mind) if i had clear shots. even with that tom kitty i probably would have if i had clear shots.

[Guest looneeetunes]

I guess I should add that since I am not in the situation I don't KNOW how I would react, though I still suspect that your friend did the right thing at least up until the boss was actually shot. All bets were off then because you don't know if the fool is going after you next or not. As long as the gun was being used only as an intimidation factor, let the insurance deal with it. Once it was actually a tool to do harm, do what you have to do and he felt it safest to sit low.

ill have to say i agree totally with this. once a shot is fired i would think it is presumed everyone there has just stepped up 8 or 10 notches on the scale for getting shot. even if i was armed with that sling shot, it would have come out

[Guest jcoyle6]

For all intents and purposes I think he handled the situation fine. But that is only contingent on the fact that the boss man was only shot in the arm. All the victims walked away, the bad guys were apprehended, and nobody died. However, had the BGs shot the boss in the head the question remains should I have gone for my gun and shot first? they are going to kill me next, now go for my gun? Should I draw my gun and keep it hidden and hope for an opening? The triangular distance from me to the armed thug is X feet, the combined distance between armed thug and BG2 and BG3 is X+Y+Z the speed at which I can place 3 Mozambique shots is 7.36 seconds for a stationary target armed thug has his gun against boss' head his trigger only requires 10lbs at the most, his gun has to move >60 degrees POA . . . . . . . . . Those scenarios are seemingly endless. But all that to say this, I can't really comment on how I'd react, but I'd damn sure try. I am just grateful that nobody died.

[Guest GregRN]

It would be hard to pull that weapon out knowing you have to live with the consequences. However, if my life, or my families' lives, were on the line, and I knew they were on the line, all bets are off and you'll have to go ahead and kill me or die trying. If I felt that it was just a robbery and I was going to live, I don't think I would draw. As far as the boss getting shot, he should be armed himself. I'm not his bodyguard, but I'll help if I can without suicide. Knowing that the BG's already had weapons out, there probably wasn't much of a chance of helping the boss at that point. I'm just glad I wasn't there to be forced into that decision. Whatever anyone thinks about it, the guy made the right decision, because he is alive still.

[Guest clutepc]

I have to agree with that one, that really could have gone wrong very fast..

Too many unknowns it sounds like to risk it.

[andersmg]

Not there so with not knowing what was actually happening it is hard to determine what I would have done. I like to think that once a shot was fired I would figure the executions were on and there was nothing to lose by trying to pull the weapon and use it.

Even a crappy .32 beats a prayer at that point

I go with Mike357 on this, I totally agree with him in his dissection of the situation.

[Marswolf]

I had a Tomcat for a while. I don't recall reliability problems. But it was a bit bulky for a BUG, at least for a .32 BUG.

[Guest Hyaloid]

I agree... sounds like in the end everything worked out "ok". Whether or not to draw and shoot depends on where everyone is in the store too... there definitely were alot of variables in this example that make it difficult to assess as a 'keyboard commando'.

In all likelihood, HAD he drawn and fired, MOST criminals will turn tail and run when fired upon, and that *might* have happened here.... but do you want to take that chance when there are innocents around, you are outnumbered, and firing 6+1 of .32? Oh yeah, and you have abot 2-3 seconds to make this life or death decision?

Tough.

Glad they caught the dirt bags though.