Ak-47 input

[Guest benchpresspower]

Looking at possibly in the next year or so investing in an AK. I would like to get something close to an original Kalashnikov but still around the 500 or 600 price tag with wooden stock and forearm. There are so many variations out there I am confused as heck. I want something quality but not something that is gonna break the bank either.

All input is appreciated.

[nightrunner]

I have researched this also as i am curious myself, and the common answer is a converted saiga

[Guest Revelator]

You could get a Saiga, convert it, add wood furniture (they come with plastic) and probably stay in the budget. At the Saiga forum website a lot of folks post pictures of their converted Saigas; that's a good place to see what they look like. Another option might be an Arsenal but those cost more.

[Westwindmike]

I've had good luck with the Romanian SAR-1's. Not so much with the WASR's.

[Trekbike]

Looking at possibly in the next year or so investing in an AK. I would like to get something close to an original Kalashnikov but still around the 500 or 600 price tag with wooden stock and forearm. There are so many variations out there I am confused as heck. I want something quality but not something that is gonna break the bank either.

All input is appreciated.

In looking at your post I picked up the following points.

1. Not ready to purchase right now.
   
2. You want quality but not more than $500 - $600.
   
3. Wants wooden stocks
   

As the others have mentioned converting a Saiga is hard to beat. Your price is do able if you shop carefully.

Saiga's have the quality for sure compared to the Romanian WASR's and even higher end AK's IMO. Just in case you are not aware, Saiga's are produced in Russia from new parts. Many other ones are built from parts kits with questionable background as far as quality.

The good or bad point (depending on if you like to work on guns), is the actually conversion. It is easily converted if you are somewhat handy but you have to watch all the 922r compliance items. There is a ton of info out there on the Saiga forum. From understanding the compliance law, parts used to convert, several suppliers/vendors are on the site as well, and how to convert.

Honestly I don't know, but i assume there are US makers of wood kits but most people use the Tapco stuff. Again, due to 922r it's pretty much a bet you will have to go a US maker for the wood stocks.

So in summary I think you probably picked up on my preference for Saiga's. Again that's based on you mentioning twice you want quality.

Some folks have bought WASR's and have been satisified but I was not at all impressed with them IMO.

[Guest benchpresspower]

In looking at your post I picked up the following points.

1. Not ready to purchase right now.
   
2. You want quality but not more than $500 - $600.
   
3. Wants wooden stocks
   

As the others have mentioned converting a Saiga is hard to beat. Your price is do able if you shop carefully.

Saiga's have the quality for sure compared to the Romanian WASR's and even higher end AK's IMO. Just in case you are not aware, Saiga's are produced in Russia from new parts. Many other ones are built from parts kits with questionable background as far as quality.

The good or bad point (depending on if you like to work on guns), is the actually conversion. It is easily converted if you are somewhat handy but you have to watch all the 922r compliance items. There is a ton of info out there on the Saiga forum. From understanding the compliance law, parts used to convert, several suppliers/vendors are on the site as well, and how to convert.

Honestly I don't know, but i assume there are US makers of wood kits but most people use the Tapco stuff. Again, due to 922r it's pretty much a bet you will have to go a US maker for the wood stocks.

So in summary I think you probably picked up on my preference for Saiga's. Again that's based on you mentioning twice you want quality.

Some folks have bought WASR's and have been satisified but I was not at all impressed with them IMO.

Definitely something to look into. Just looking over gunbroker boggles my mind. Seeing quite a few SAIGA's and Romanian WASR's but running across Yugo and Norinco as well. I appreciate all your help folks.

[Guest benchpresspower]

Definitely right about not looking to purchase now. Just finished paying off a GSG-5.

[Guest grimel]

Unless you go the Saiga conversion route, an "original" AK won't happen for $600 or less. The only way to go wrong is to buy a random CAI assembled WASR off the rack.

If you go SAIGA, pick your parts carefully and you can use the wood furniture from any maker (romanian wood is easy to find reasonably priced). You'd need a trigger group (Tapco G2 single hook - 3 parts), US made piston (1 part), and something else or two depending on what you want (flash hider/muzzle brake, etc).

It's easier to add US buttstock, pistol grip, & G2 trigger and be done with it.

[Guest 5Legion]

Watch gunbroker for a converted saiga ... +1 on those. I've owned several types (Rom, Bulg) and shot many types (Chi, Russian, Yugo). IMO for your $ the saiga are your best bet, for the $, and say "made in Russian" on them which is neat.

5L

[Guest Rupertus]

I've been interested in AK's lately and, like you said, there are a ton of variations out there. I have read a bunch on AR15.com in their AK-47 forum and it's pretty informative so far.

I'd like to go with a Russian AK or maybe Bulgarian, but they get a little pricey. Although I'm very tempted to buy an AK, I'll probably go with the same firepower in an M1A just to stay true to the USA (I'll probably go with neither unless I hit the Lotto).

[Smith]

The Bulgarians are very good and you can get them for less than $500 ATM. Saiga's are the way to go if you want the joy of doing it yourself. If not Arsenals have come way down and they are using Saiga's now and will be in your budget.

[mike_f]

If not Arsenals have come way down and they are using Saiga's now and will be in your budget.

+1 The Saiga Legions currently being sold by Arsenal through KVAR and other distributors are the best deal in AKs right now. It's a genuine Izhmash made Russian AK already set up in "normal" AK configuration that accepts regular 7.62 AK mags.

They are currently selling them for $549. You can pick up a used wood stock set later if you want.

K-VAR Corporation :: Rifles & Shotguns :: SGL21 Series – 7.62x39 Caliber Russian Stamped Receiver AK-47 Variant Rifles :: SGL21-61

[Smith]

+1 The Saiga Legions currently being sold by Arsenal through KVAR and other distributors are the best deal in AKs right now. It's a genuine Izhmash made Russian AK already set up in "normal" AK configuration that accepts regular 7.62 AK mags.

They are currently selling them for $549. You can pick up a used wood stock set later if you want.

K-VAR Corporation :: Rifles & Shotguns :: SGL21 Series – 7.62x39 Caliber Russian Stamped Receiver AK-47 Variant Rifles :: SGL21-61

That's the best thing going right now. You can't convert to that extent for nearly that price. Plus they have the dimples, most Saiga's do not, and you might even get one with the third "x". If that matters to you.

[Guest benchpresspower]

+1 The Saiga Legions currently being sold by Arsenal through KVAR and other distributors are the best deal in AKs right now. It's a genuine Izhmash made Russian AK already set up in "normal" AK configuration that accepts regular 7.62 AK mags.

They are currently selling them for $549. You can pick up a used wood stock set later if you want.

K-VAR Corporation :: Rifles & Shotguns :: SGL21 Series – 7.62x39 Caliber Russian Stamped Receiver AK-47 Variant Rifles :: SGL21-61

That right there is perfect. I assume that basically any wood stock set would fit?

[turkeydad]

another option that hasnt been mentioned yet are the egyptian maadi's. . .theye were made on soviet equipment and are as close to a true russian ak 47 as you can get. . the maadi arm imported by intrac of knoxville is very good as well as the ones imported by pars international. . you have to be carefull though and not get one labeled as misr 90 or misr 10 from century as they are cobbled up crap i have a maadi arm its awesome

[mike_f]

That right there is perfect. I assume that basically any wood stock set would fit?

Any European AKM or even AK-74 stock set should fit it. You will probably have to do some minor adjustment - as nearly all AK stock sets need.

One thing to be careful of is that stock sets from stamped receiver Chinese rifles or any stamped receiver rifle with 1.6mm thick receiver steel (old Armory USA receivered rifles and some of the current rifles sold by TGI) will be too loose. The European pattern AKMs and AK-74s use 1.0mm thick receiver steel. The stock sets have to be trimmed down more to fit the 1.6mm steel receivers so they rattle around a bit when installed on a 1.0mm receiver.

Other than not being as pretty as wood, the polymer stock sets on the Arsenal rifles (and sold separately from KVAR) are superb. They are virtually identical to the Soviet/Russian stocks - except they actually have a more uniform color and finish than the originals. They also have an excellent polished stainless steel heat shield in the lower handguard that keeps the lower handguard cooler long than any other handguard I've used.

Edited December 6, 2009 by mike_f

[Guest benchpresspower]

If I did choose to go with a WASR can the piston and trigger group be changed out (to elminate any guesswork as to the quality) as well?

[Guest MinorKey]

it may nor be a popular, but in that price range, i have both the WASR and a Norinco MAK90 and i find the quality and overall accuracy and feel of the Norinco to be HIGHLY superior. from what i can tell the longevity of the Norinco is also a great asset. some of these were banned due to an extra rivet location that made it really easy to convert to full auto but the one i have is not that way. Many photos on the internet to help you determine the difference.

just my $0.02

[mike_f]

If I did choose to go with a WASR can the piston and trigger group be changed out (to elminate any guesswork as to the quality) as well?

Yes, those items can be changed out if you want (try them first to see if they need it or not though). The fire control group (FCG) is relatively easy to switch out. If you did that I would suggest going with a retaining plate for the FCG vs. the wire that comes on most AKs (much easier to install/remove than the wire). The gas piston is a little more difficult, but certainly a doable DIY job. Have there been problems with WASR gas pistons?

If you're thinking about getting a WASR and swapping out parts right away, you might want to add up the cost of all of that and compare it to the cost of an Arsenal rifle that is good to go right out of the box. I would guess that the Arsenal rifles will also retain their value much more than a WASR if you ever want to sell it in the future.

[Guest TwoLaneBlackTop]

Best "cheap AK" with the traditional pistol grip configuration and 45 degree gas block are the late 2002-2003 Romanian SAR-1, these are a state arsenal made AK, much better than a WASR in my opinion. Pick them up for $400 to $500 fairly easy. If you don't mind the 90 degree gas block the new SLG-21 seem to be a good choice.

If you don't mind a "thumb-hole" stock the MAK-90 is the overall best for the money by far. China actually makes something right but we can no longer import it.... oh well.

Edited December 7, 2009 by TwoLaneBlackTop

[Guest TwoLaneBlackTop]

Another rifle(s) many overlook but can be a great stamped AK are the Maadi from the early 90's. The Maadi rifles imported by PARS and ACC/INTRAC are just like the highly desirable Steyr Maadi (that are worth $1500 + these days) except...... The bayonet lug, no threaded muzzle break (on some) and the ugly thumb-hole stock, and the finish is typically not as "pretty". The Maadi state arsenal in Egypt was set up by the Russians and brought to Egypt, so the rifles are true Russian pattern built on Russian tooling, and are about as close to a real Russian AKM as most will ever get.

The PARS guns had the muzzle turned down and the bayonet lug ears ground off, the INTRAC guns has the ears ground down but only had a muzzle nut tack welded onto the muzzle and it takes a few seconds to remove it, thus exposing the intact threads and the installed muzzle brake plunger. Some of the ACC guns have little to no grinding on the bayonet lug and you might still be able to attach a bayonet. The fit and finish was however typically better on the PARS guns though. With a few US parts, and a Egyptian butt-stock and grip you could have a rifle that would be as close as you will get to a real Russian factory built Izmash, or Tula made AK. Some of these rifles have the Y axis stamp where the pin would have been for the sear, the rifles with the stamping are more desirable because they "look" closer to the part of the real deal.

Don't waste any time with the century imported Maadi rifles! The century imported MISR-90 are among the worst AK ever, they were built with a mix of Egyptian and Chinese parts, the Chinese parts came from MAK-90 that had to be destroyed as they were caught in bonded warehouses when their importation was banned. Egyptian AK are good, Chinese AK are good but they are different pattern AK rifles and when you mix and match some crucial components the results are often poor to say the least. The early Century MISR rifles (not the 90 version) can be okay but most are of much poorer quality than the PARS and INTRAC guns.

The PARS and INTRAC Maadi are perhaps the most under-rated AK in my opinion.

Edited December 8, 2009 by TwoLaneBlackTop

[Humble]

Please excuse a tiny threadjack? I am learning about the AKs, and one thing that comes up is the stamped receiver versus milled.

I believe the milled receiver is rarer, generally better, and more $?

If I have a choice, what value should I place on a milled receiver?

Thanks! Great thread. ;-)

[Guest TwoLaneBlackTop]

Please excuse a tiny threadjack? I am learning about the AKs, and one thing that comes up is the stamped receiver versus milled.

I believe the milled receiver is rarer, generally better, and more $?

If I have a choice, what value should I place on a milled receiver?

Thanks! Great thread. ;-)

Milled receiver is just that, a receiver milled from a solid forging of steel. Most of the milled receiver rifles you will see use a pinned in place barrel, but every now and then you will run across a screw in barrel. I could document all the various models of milled AK that have been sold in the states but I don't have time to do such right now.

Stamped receiver guns have a receiver that is made of 1mm thick or in the case of most Yugo guns and the RPK based AK 1.6mm steel. The front and rear are held together with steel trunnions riveted in place and there are reinforcement pins in the center.

The first type 1 AK was a stamped receiver but very few were built due to tooling and metallurgy technology not being ready yet in the Soviet union at the time, the type 2 and type 3 AK47 are the milled receiver guns most commonly associated with the early AK47 pattern. In 1959 the AKM the stamped version (M for Modified) was introduced and this is by far the most common version of the AK.

I have a milled gun, and several stamped guns. The milled receiver is better, but it also cost more. Is it worth the extra cost? Typically no unless you really like the AK design and have several of them already. The stamped variety has been proven to be a great design that is cheaper to make, and has a serivce record that is longer and every bit as good as it's milled counterpart.

[Humble]

Thanks, TwoLane... good info.

[Smith]

Milled receiver is just that, a receiver milled from a solid forging of steel. Most of the milled receiver rifles you will see use a pinned in place barrel, but every now and then you will run across a screw in barrel. I could document all the various models of milled AK that have been sold in the states but I don't have time to do such right now.

Stamped receiver guns have a receiver that is made of 1mm thick or in the case of most Yugo guns and the RPK based AK 1.6mm steel. The front and rear are held together with steel trunnions riveted in place and there are reinforcement pins in the center.

The first type 1 AK was a stamped receiver but very few were built due to tooling and metallurgy technology not being ready yet in the Soviet union at the time, the type 2 and type 3 AK47 are the milled receiver guns most commonly associated with the early AK47 pattern. In 1959 the AKM the stamped version (M for Modified) was introduced and this is by far the most common version of the AK.

I have a milled gun, and several stamped guns. The milled receiver is better, but it also cost more. Is it worth the extra cost? Typically no unless you really like the AK design and have several of them already. The stamped variety has been proven to be a great design that is cheaper to make, and has a serivce record that is longer and every bit as good as it's milled counterpart.

I will also add that while the milled receiver is a more desirable collector item, they do have a tendency to crack where the barrel and receiver join up. They are also heavier.