XD45 GAP

[molonlabetn]

The peak pressure depends on the powder you use... most manufacturers use fast powder to attain pressure, and fillers to make case volume. A proper load has the burn-rate and powder charge balanced to get the desired performance. I'm in no position to tell manufacturers what they can and can't do, but obviously there are more than a few folks who load ammo for a living who can beat the pants off of the nominal loads listed with regularity, without compromising the safety factor of the cartridge itself. They do it with other calibers, too.

For instance, Mike McNett of Double-Tap tests his ammo in Glocks, of all things... I've yet to hear of any kBs.

Cor-Bon, Double-Tap and Buffalo Bore all exceed the nominal velocities with their ammunition... and all of those products are in wide enough circulation that we would have heard about kBs.

[The Rabbi]

I dont know any depts that use Buffalo Bore, Double Tap or even Cor Bon. I've seen Buffalo Bore in one shop (mine) so I dont know how much circulation it gets.

And I figure that the major ammo makers developed the rounds and the bullets so they must know something about effective loadings for them.

[molonlabetn]

I dont know any depts that use Buffalo Bore, Double Tap or even Cor Bon. I've seen Buffalo Bore in one shop (mine) so I dont know how much circulation it gets.

And I figure that the major ammo makers developed the rounds and the bullets so they must know something about effective loadings for them.

BB & DT are primarily Internet order sites. But they are available and sold nationally... Of course Cor-Bon is. I have no idea how to research what departments carry what. THP uses Speer Gold-Dot LE loads (which are indeed loaded hotter than regular GD).

It's not a matter of if they can load a given cartridge hotter, safely... it's a matter of if they will, and sell it to the general public.

Also... if the original loadings for certain calibers met the full potential for their application, when initially designed, there would have been no point to developing +p and +p+ loads for them... speaking of 9mm, .38spl, and .45acp specifically.

[Marswolf]

I'd be interested to find out the lengths of the test barrels, though. Most .45GAP tests specify 4" barrel, and the ACP 5".

Federal uses a 5" barrel for both according to their Ballistics Catalog.

[DaveTN]

It's not a matter of if they can load a given cartridge hotter, safely... it's a matter of if they will, and sell it to the general public.

Who makes an “LE†round that the general public can’t buy a local gun shop?

[molonlabetn]

Who makes an “LE” round that the general public can’t buy a local gun shop?

Several of the big names. Speer (Gold-Dot LE), Winchester (Ranger), Hornady (TAP LE), Federal (LE HST), etc... It's stuff that one can get on the internet of course, if you know where to look, but not at any gun-shop I've ever been in. It is marked and usually sold as LE proprietary.

[Marswolf]

I have an old box of Rangers that say "law enforcement ammunition", not "law enforcement only" like the newer boxes.

The reality is that the markings have no legal consequence. Lots of shops will sell you "LE ammo". I see it as more of a marketing tactic to sell ammunition to LEOs.

[The Rabbi]

Actually Hornady makes a line of LE TAP. The difference is that the cases are not coated like the commercial version. This is to save money because LE depts are stingy/underfunded. So the commercial ammo is actually better than the LE stuff.

With Winchester, you can get the LE stuff. I have some 9mm in the shop now.

[Guest Big Mike]

Thanks again, guys.....but my head is spinning! You guys know way too much. But I AM glad I found this site.

[DaveTN]

The reality is that the markings have no legal consequence. Lots of shops will sell you "LE ammo". I see it as more of a marketing tactic to sell ammunition to LEOs.

You are correct; it is a marketing ploy for most. Only the target is not Law Enforcement; the target is the general public that thinks they are buying something “specialâ€.

Others have ‘LE Only†ammo that is sold in bulk and doesn’t have the fancy boxes or is being sold in states that have limitations on ammo.

[The Rabbi]

Thanks again, guys.....but my head is spinning! You guys know way too much. But I AM glad I found this site.

No, we only sound like we know something.

But the short answer is, yes you can pick up a .45gap pistol for much less than a .45 acp or .40S&W but you will probably end up spending the savings for ammo down the road. But the .45gap is a perfectly good serviceable cartridge.

[molonlabetn]

...You guys know way too much...

We've gotcha fooled...

[Guest Mugster]

The peak pressure depends on the powder you use... most manufacturers use fast powder to attain pressure, and fillers to make case volume. A proper load has the burn-rate and powder charge balanced to get the desired performance. I'm in no position to tell manufacturers what they can and can't do, but obviously there are more than a few folks who load ammo for a living who can beat the pants off of the nominal loads listed with regularity, without compromising the safety factor of the cartridge itself. They do it with other calibers, too.

For instance, Mike McNett of Double-Tap tests his ammo in Glocks, of all things... I've yet to hear of any kBs.

Cor-Bon, Double-Tap and Buffalo Bore all exceed the nominal velocities with their ammunition... and all of those products are in wide enough circulation that we would have heard about kBs.

Or at least they claim some performance number. When you talk velocity it should be the average of some number of rounds, not the highest single shot you record, as I somehow suspect these might be...or from a test barrel that shoots faster. I've never heard of double tap ammo or anyone named Mike McNett. If they were published results in guns and ammo from guys like Bob Milek or Mike Venturino, I might start believing.

For example, the federal power shok stuff in 230gr is listed quite high in their documentation and on the side of the box velocity wise. The 2 boxes i've tested of the 230 gr .45acp ammo averaged somewhere around 815 fps and i've seen lows of 750 with massive standard deviation. The stuff i've looked at, and admittedly it is not enough of a sample size to prove anything, just flat sucks.

So i'll buy a box of this stuff and see what they got in a few weeks, or if you have a few rounds, i'll be happy to let you shoot them through my chrono if you live anywhere near murfreesboro. I usually shoot at a range down in manchester. I'll probably be out friday afternoon working on .223 stuff.

There is no way a mass maker can beat a reloader in terms of velocity. I can load up in quarter grain increments until my primers start backing out and my brass starts splitting and hand tune for my pistol...if i ignore published maximums. A commercial maker has to make everyone's pistol happy.

[Guest xd45]

Glock created the 45GAP to reduce grip size due to polymer mag,s.XD uses stainless mag's that are thinner than polymer thus solving the problem.I have the XD45-compact(acp) it fits my medium sized hands perfectly with compact(10 rnd.) or full-size(13 rnd.) mag's.

[Marswolf]

You are correct; it is a marketing ploy for most. Only the target is not Law Enforcement; the target is the general public that thinks they are buying something “special”.

I'd say you are correct Dave. There are an awful lot of guns and ammo sold because, "it like what the cops use."

But LE gear is governed by a lot of factors. As Rabbi pointed out, cost is a major factor, whether the department is paying the bill or the individual officer is doing so. Just because the cops (or the military) use something, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best.

A lot of gun related marketing is based on smoke and mirrors with a hefty helping of P. T. Barnum thrown in for good measure.

[molonlabetn]

You are correct; it is a marketing ploy for most. Only the target is not Law Enforcement; the target is the general public that thinks they are buying something “specialâ€.

Others have ‘LE Only†ammo that is sold in bulk and doesn’t have the fancy boxes or is being sold in states that have limitations on ammo.

In most cases, this is indeed correct... It is simply re-boxed in larger quantities, perhaps with a slightly hotter charge of gunpowder, but the bullets and general performance is similar. Only the name and stock number are changed. But on the other side of the coin is FN, and their obsession with keeping 5.7x28 SS190 ammo out of the hands of 'commoners'. Some companies do sell watered down cartridges to the general public.

[Marswolf]

But on the other side of the coin is FN, and their obsession with keeping 5.7x28 SS190 ammo out of the hands of 'commoners'.

That really bugs your ass doesn't it?

[molonlabetn]

That really bugs your ass doesn't it?

Keeps me up at night, man... If only SS190 was available, all would be well with the world, peace would reign, and FN products would fall from the heavens into our laps.

[Guest TN.Frank]

So just pick up some of the hot Cezch 7.62x25mm ammo and a CZ-52, that combo will burn thru IIIa Kevlar like a warm knife thru hot butter.

[molonlabetn]

So just pick up some of the hot Cezch 7.62x25mm ammo and a CZ-52, that combo will burn thru IIIa Kevlar like a warm knife thru hot butter.

I need that caliber in my arsenal... But I'm leaning more towards a real Tokarev TT-33. From the ones I've handled, between the two, I liked the Toks better, for the ergonomics, action design, trigger, and controls.

[Marswolf]

If only SS190 was available

Remind me to tell you sometime what happens if you fill the bullet tip void of a SS192 "Hollow Point" with polymer.

[molonlabetn]

Remind me to tell you sometime what happens if you fill the bullet tip void of a SS192 "Hollow Point" with polymer.

Or perhaps reload some 62gr penetrator projectiles from SS109 (which would likely end up beng very slow and high pressure)... Or even load some light FMJ projectiles.

It chaps my ass that they won't provide effective ammo, not that it can't be accomplished on one's own.

Oh well...

[Guest TN.Frank]

The Tok is a nicer size but the CZ-52 is a lot stronger action. Too bad we can't get a modern DA semi in 7.62x25mm, with good HP ammo it'd be the bomb.

[molonlabetn]

The Tok is a nicer size but the CZ-52 is a lot stronger action. Too bad we can't get a modern DA semi in 7.62x25mm, with good HP ammo it'd be the bomb.

Kinda like .357sig ... (except for the fact that the commies never produced billions of rounds of .357sig which they are now willing to sell for next-to-nothing)

[dcloudy777]

Another hot little number available for the CZ-52s... I keep meaning to get one for mine...

http://www.reedsammo.com/Page.html

DanO