UPS......LEARN YOUR POLICY!!!!!!

[Guest Gun Geek]

X-ray? I know Fed-Ex will do it if they suspect a firearm has been shipped ground.

[Oh Shoot]

X-ray? I know Fed-Ex will do it if they suspect a firearm has been shipped ground.

There are no xray machines at FedEx Ground in Knoxville unless they've put them in in the last year or so.

We just opened them.

I opened LOTS of packages when I was delivering, to know whether was worth the risk of leaving package if no one home on residential stops, it is not against policy.

Actually, it's okay to ship long gun FedEx Ground.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

How were the employees finding out that the boxes held firearms? Seems like a sealed box with nothing on it that says "firearm" should be hard to guess. The only thing that might hint at a firearm is if it's going to a gun maker or FFL that has the word "gun" in the shipping address (such as "Buds Guns" or "SIG Firearms")

Matthew

You are right.

At any given terminal, the FFLs become known to the package handlers, as well as drivers. FFL destination packages are much more prone to theft than packages from FFLs, as the destination address jumps out more obviously than the from address.

Any given address can also be tagged in puter system to prompt for special attention, but somebody higher up than sorters/drivers would have to be in on that.

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

Funny...the talk about the laws...how bout the policy of UPS, that is what they are going to follow...according to THEIR POLICY, you must inform (See below in red)...the law has little to do with it...if you dont like that, find another carrier (BTW, pretty much ALL carriers will have very similar policies) ...

Hey, you can't be fined or jailed for breaking UPS/FedEx rules, so I don't much worry about that.

- OS

[raydog1]

I'd like to recommend the UPS store on West End as well. That owner was formerly a FFL and knows his stuff (and he's just as frustrated with all the BS restrictions as we are). He gave me zero hassles and even educated me on do's & don'ts for shipping firearms in the future to avoid problems.

On a side note, I worked at Kinko's in college and left right as they were transitioning to being FedEx Kinkos. Total nightmare. They only gave managers the real training. The rest of us either had to guess or call the support line when we had a question with no manager around. Most of us didn't know jack about the regs. And when in doubt. .. we usually said "Sorry, we can't ship that. K Thanks Goodbye!" So be prepared when dealing with the front line grunt.

[deerslayer]

Hey, you can't be fined or jailed for breaking UPS/FedEx rules, so I don't much worry about that.

- OS

On the other hand, there's no guarantee that you'll get your stuff back, either.

[Oh Shoot]

On the other hand, there's no guarantee that you'll get your stuff back, either.

Getting it BACK, the onus is on whichever FFL that's shipping it back to me.

As far as my shipping it, it's insured, and since the only firearm notification is verbal, who's to prove I didn't "notify".

- OS

[deerslayer]

As far as my shipping it, it's insured, and since the only firearm notification is verbal, who's to prove I didn't "notify".

- OS

Maybe the person you handed it to. UPS/FedEx both reserve the right to open any package. Customer Counter person opens it, finds a handgun? Doubt you'll get it back, but you may get a free extended stay at the crossbar hotel.

[macville]

I just want to point out something.... I've heard that FexEx/UPS only allow overnight service for guns because they don't want the items to be stolen, right? Well, if the item is going through their hands, how does five days via ground vs overnight make a difference? It's still going through their hands, right? Also, if firearms getting stolen is such a big deal, then maybe they need to hire more honest people to work for them? Should I be more worried about other valuable things I ship like my camera gear?

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

Maybe the person you handed it to. UPS/FedEx both reserve the right to open any package. Customer Counter person opens it, finds a handgun? Doubt you'll get it back, but you may get a free extended stay at the crossbar hotel.

It is NOT against federal law to fail to declare a firearm to UPS/FedEx or even to the USPS (long guns only), as long as it is going to a FFL licensee (or to yourself in care of someone else).

I understand that the carrier can open the package (I used to open them myself at FedEx Ground), and you could be "busted" by UPS/FedEx, but that is not a criminal offense of any kind, even if you sent a handgun by another method other than overnight. It seems it may be a criminal offense to send a handgun through USPS to anyone (except for FFL to FFL), but actually not sure if that is a criminal offense or just a violation of P.O. rules.

- OS

[Guest mosinon]

I think it would be better to see OhShoot as a resource rather than as an opponent on this particular thread.

[DaveTN]

It is NOT against federal law to fail to declare a firearm to UPS/FedEx or even to the USPS (long guns only), as long as it is going to a FFL licensee (or to yourself in care of someone else).

Well it would certainly save a lot of problems if you are correct.

However, we would have to believe…

1. The ATF is wrong.

2. All the gun information sites we rely on for information are wrong.

3. Your interpretation of the statute is correct, and has been upheld in court.

4. The statue you are quoting is the statute a person would be charged under and no other statutes exist.

If we have no duty to notify the carrier when shipping to an FFL; then the problem goes away.

This is a question we need an answer to.

If UPS seizes my gun to turn it over to the ATF, or I get charged I don’t want my only defense to be “OhShoot said it was okay.”

[Guest thorn]

The story is somebody shipped a too well insured (or so they thought) firearm through Whites Creek hub and it turned up missing then a claim was filed. That's their reasoning for doing a visual now. Also, somebody there came up with the idea that a copy of the receiving FFL's license be in the package too... I just know who to walk up to when I'm shipping there and never have a problem

[18 U.S.C. 921(a)(32), 922(g)(8) and 925(a)(1)]

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

[Oh Shoot]

Well it would certainly save a lot of problems if you are correct.

However, we would have to believe…

1. The ATF is wrong.

2. All the gun information sites we rely on for information are wrong.

3. Your interpretation of the statute is correct, and has been upheld in court.

4. The statue you are quoting is the statute a person would be charged under and no other statutes exist.

If we have no duty to notify the carrier when shipping to an FFL; then the problem goes away.

This is a question we need an answer to.

If UPS seizes my gun to turn it over to the ATF, or I get charged I don’t want my only defense to be “OhShoot said it was okay.â€

I don't know how to counter any of those statements, because of one major reason:

I can't find any case in which a person has been charged by the ATF for not declaring a shipment to a FFL was a firearm. Not one.

Can you?

- OS

[Oh Shoot]

...

(B8) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?

A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]

Yep.

This is stated everywhere.

However, the statute sections mentioned do NOT say that.

See the exact quotes of those in preceding posts.

- OS

[Guest thorn]

Not sure why you are looking for it in statutes??? If it says it in B8 here ATF Online - ATF P 5300.4 - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (9/05)

Whether or not you can "find any case in which a person has been charged by the ATF for not declaring a shipment to a FFL was a firearm. Not one." wouldn't you be testing this?

[Fallguy]

Getting it BACK, the onus is on whichever FFL that's shipping it back to me.

As far as my shipping it, it's insured, and since the only firearm notification is verbal, who's to prove I didn't "notify".

- OS

While I agree with you on the difference between Fed Ex/UPS policy, what is posted on the ATF site and what the USC, *Title 18-Part I-Chapter 44-§ 922(e) actually says on when notification is required, the USC does say that notification is to be written when it is required and not verbal.

* - US CODE: Title 18,922. Unlawful acts

[Oh Shoot]

Not sure why you are looking for it in statutes??? If it says it in B8 here ATF Online - ATF P 5300.4 - Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (9/05)...

Um..the law IS the statutes.

The ATF is um...well, let's just say they are supposed to enforce the law and not write it.

I can't find "B 8".

If you mean a FAQ, the ATF has played fast and loose with actual law forever.

Their long going statement in some FAQ or other on their site (which I can't find right now) regarding notification to carrier is just wrong, simple as that. It's one of those "everybody knows because ATF says".

At any rate, if you can copy/paste just what you're referring to above, would make it helpful in understanding your point.

- OS

Edited November 12, 2009 by OhShoot

[Oh Shoot]

...

Whether or not you can "find any case in which a person has been charged by the ATF for not declaring a shipment to a FFL was a firearm. Not one." wouldn't you be testing this?

I'm not worried about testing anything.

The couple of times I've had to send a gun back to a manufacturer, I've boxed it up, paid/printed an online UPS sticker, and dropped it at a UPS store.

How about companies that TELL you to claim the gun is "parts" in their shipping instructions?

If it were illegal, don't you think BATF might have had a word with them by now?

- OS

[deerslayer]

I just want to point out something.... I've heard that FexEx/UPS only allow overnight service for guns because they don't want the items to be stolen, right? Well, if the item is going through their hands, how does five days via ground vs overnight make a difference? It's still going through their hands, right? Also, if firearms getting stolen is such a big deal, then maybe they need to hire more honest people to work for them? Should I be more worried about other valuable things I ship like my camera gear?

Matthew

If going overnight, it will pass through fewer destinations, and thus, fewer hands. Also, it will sit around less, as in waiting for a sort to begin. Overnight offers fewer opportunities for the package to get misplaced, stolen, damaged, or the label torn off. As for hiring honest people, UPS/FedEx are lucky to get people that actually show up to work five days a week, much less be honest.

Edited November 13, 2009 by deerslayer

[Oh Shoot]

If going overnight, it will pass through fewer destinations, and thus, fewer hands. Also, it will sit around less, as in waiting for a sort to begin. Overnight offers fewer opportunities for the package to get misplaced, stolen, damaged, or the label torn off. As for hiring honest people, UPS/FedEx are lucky to get people that actually show up to work five days a week, much less be honest.

Yep.

Doubly so at FedEx Ground and Home Delivery. The package handlers aren't even full time employees, just temps who mostly give about 4% of a shyte. On the other hand, once the driver actually gets it, it will likely get better care than through any other service, FedEx Express OR UPS, since contractors are generally held personally financially responsible for damage/lost claims. (FedEx Ground and Home Delivery guys are not employees, but contractors).

Of course, except for actually lost shipments, unless you are a volume company shipper, most all claims for damages are initially denied. That's SOP for all divisions of FredX. In the case of Ground, it's particularly dirty in that regard, as X might eventually pay customer for "market value" of the items if the customer has the tenacity to jump through all the hoops, while taking the full max insured amount from contractor's settlement and pocketing the difference.

- OS

Edited November 13, 2009 by OhShoot

[deerslayer]

Yep.

Doubly so at FedEx Ground and Home Delivery. The package handlers aren't even full time employees, just temps who mostly give about 4% of a shyte. On the other hand, once the driver actually gets it, it will likely get better care than through any other service, FedEx Express OR UPS, since contractors are generally held personally financially responsible for damage/lost claims. (FedEx Ground and Home Delivery guys are not employees, but contractors).

Of course, except for actually lost shipments, unless you are a volume company shipper, most all claims for damages are initially denied. That's SOP for all divisions of FredX. In the case of Ground, it's particularly dirty in that regard, as X might eventually pay customer for "market value" of the items if the customer has the tenacity to jump through all the hoops, while taking the full max insured amount from contractor's settlement and pocketing the difference.

- OS

The whole contractor thing seems like a pretty raw deal. Not knocking you at all, but the FDX Ground guys around here don't seem to "get it."

[Oh Shoot]

The whole contractor thing seems like a pretty raw deal. Not knocking you at all, but the FDX Ground guys around here don't seem to "get it."

Huge scam.

The only "independent contracting" decisions the drivers' have now is where to purchase fuel and who to work on their trucks.

X has paid out untold millions (perhaps billion or more, haven't kept up since I left) in settlements and legal fees over the last decade or so, defending their "contract model" to the bitter end, because they make out like bandits on it. They've had to modify their operations in several states. Terminated all individual contractor's in California rather than admit employee status, etc, etc. I imagine that sooner or later, "all will be one" in the sense of all being employees and all the divisions being branded same.

Largest class action national lawsuit is hopefully finally nearing completion, something like 34 states' individual class suits have been consolidated for fact finding into federal court.

I knew it was dirty when I got in, (although HOW dirty even surprised me) but knew I'd only be in for a few years tops, got what I needed out of it, and sold out. Actually enjoyed the work itself, although was brutal hours and workload to make a decent buck, with X basically determining how much you could make and how much hell they'd put you through to make it. Unlike me, many there are stuck, with huge investments, employees of their own, no way out since they have families to support, yet keep doing more for less, many treading water or failing outright. The Ground division has financially ruined many a life.

Hope to see a little bonus when the suits are all settled.

The Express division is almost as bad, even though they are employees. Since Fred has successfully kept the union out through decades of greasing the right palms in DC, the guys are something like $10/hr less top pay than UPS with much fewer bennies. That's if they "top out", which few are ever allowed to do. I understand the general anti-union bent on TGO, but if ever workers needed one, it is those in the various divisions of FedEx.

FedEx is still classed as an "airline", and protected from unions under the archaic Railway Labor Act, while UPS is a "trucking company". They each of course conduct the same business in the same way.

Only the pilots have a good way to go.

Sigh...this is all just a touch of what goes on in Fred's empire,

Sorry for the hugely off topic rant ... I feel better, was it good for you too?

- OS

Edited November 14, 2009 by OhShoot

[macville]

The Express division is almost as bad, even though they are employees. Since Fred has successfully kept the union out through decades of greasing the right palms in DC, the guys are something like $10/hr less top pay than UPS with much fewer bennies. That's if they "top out", which few are ever allowed to do. I understand the general anti-union bent on TGO, but if ever workers needed one, it is those in the various divisions of FedEx.

The funny thing is I've gotten much better service from FedEx and far more help from FedEx employees than UPS. The only thing that drives me nuts is that FedEx and FedEx Ground are two different companies.

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

The funny thing is I've gotten much better service from FedEx and far more help from FedEx employees than UPS. The only thing that drives me nuts is that FedEx and FedEx Ground are two different companies.

Matthew

Well, it's amazing the dedication to the public the drivers' still maintain, even though all the internal bitterness. One of the hardest things when I left was saying bye to all the folks on the route I had gotten to know and care about.

Also, to confuse matters further, FedEx Home Delivery is a division of Ground, but operate different days than Ground.

Of course with both divisions, many contractor own several routes and hire drivers to cover them, who don't have the same deeply invested interest in service, and there are of course some occasional problems due to that. Matter of fact, FDX has encouraged this multiple route thing, as has helped to put a layer of "hiring" between management and contractor which has lessened FDX culpability in both labor and accident lawsuits.

- OS