BATFE ACKNOWLEDGES A NATIONWIDE DATABASE OF GUN OWNERS

[Guest HexHead]

Of course some of the guns that had 4473's filled out on them will have been sold to someone else, but the person who bought them will still be known to be a gun owner.

Not when it's a private sale with no paper trail and a cash transaction. I don't even ask what their name is, I don't want to know.

1. Are you legally allowed to buy a gun?

2. Show me a TN drivers license, I just want to see the pic on it to make sure it's you. You can cover your name and address with your thumb if you want.

3. You give me cash

4. I give you gun.

[USMCJG]

Not when it's a private sale with no paper trail and a cash transaction. I don't even ask what their name is, I don't want to know.

1. Are you legally allowed to buy a gun?

2. Show me a TN drivers license, I just want to see the pic on it to make sure it's you. You can cover your name and address with your thumb if you want.

3. You give me cash

4. I give you gun.

I know. I was only referring to sales that require you to fill out a 4473. If you buy ALL of your firearms through private sales you may be able to avoid the inevitable national registry.

[Chief07]

The New Jersey Democratic State Committee - The Democratic Party of New Jersey

<!--StartFragment -->"E-trace is a nationwide database maintained by the ATF that lists

a firearm's first purchaser, date of purchase and the retailer from

which it was purchased. The information is compiled from police

records of gun purchases provided by local departments, but until

today was only accessible by the ATF and the police department that

provided it." Read all of this article from August 2007 -

Governor Announces Historic Partnership with ATF to Trace Illegal Firearms

First off, Corzine was voted out of office last Tuesday!

A**H*LE piece of

NJ firearm laws are probably the most restrictive in the country. (that's why I'm leaving).

Second - Im not sure it is legal to share this information the way they are doing. The way I read it, is information is only to be used in a investigation by the court and people involved only. Not the state.

But NJ breaks it's own laws on a daily basis.

They don't call it the Soprano state for nothing.

They also passed the one gun a month law that is stupid. "Criminals don't care about laws". NJ is so anti-gun it makes me sick.

I'll be in America real soon!

[deafdogdief]

Is this not defined as 'documentation' which is illegal?

[redfsr]

That report is not accurate. Etrace is an online database used to submit data from firearms recovered in crimes, abandoned, etc. to be traced. The ATF does not have a magical database to pull this info from. The ATF calls the manufacture who tells the ATF the distributer the gun went to and ultimately the ATF learns which FFL sold the gun. From there, the FFL looks in their A&D books and 4473s to find the original purchaser.

Etrace used to only be accessible by ATF. All other agencies used to have to submit the form by fax or email and now there is a website where the trace request can be submitted.

Once a gun has been traced, that information is kept in the database.

There is nothing illegal about that and nothing to worry about for law abiding, responsible gun owners.

Edited November 7, 2009 by redfsr

[redfsr]

Ok, I take my comment back about the report not being accurate. I read the link. The report is accurate. The interpretation by those upset is not accurate. It is simply a tool to trace where a gun came from that is involved in an investigation by the means I described above and in that link.

That tracing system has been around since licensed dealers were required to maintain the 4473s and A&D records.

If someone close to you was murdered and the murder weapon was recovered do you think there shouldn't be a way to trace where the gun came from? If multiple convicted gang banger shoots you with a brand new Glock 22, should the police not be able to trace the weapon to see where it came from? Many times, stolen street guns get back to their rightful owners because they didn't know the serial # of the gun to give to the police so it could be entered into NCIC but tracing it reveals the owner had it stolen during a burglary.

Edited November 7, 2009 by redfsr

[Guest jimdigriz]

That tracing system has been around since licensed dealers were required to maintain the 4473s and A&D records.

The form 4473 IS the problem. It might be less of a big deal if the FFL did not have to turn the forms over to the BATFE when they went out of business.

If someone close to you was murdered and the murder weapon was recovered do you think there shouldn't be a way to trace where the gun came from?

No, there shouldn't. Less and less privacy, and more and more police power, will always enable police to solve more crimes, but there are some prices we must pay - including having some unsolved murders - in order to be a free people.

Edited November 7, 2009 by jimdigriz

[robin48]

Anybody care to email me plans for a good tinfoil hat? maybe we should make these things out of something more sturdy.

I prefer to use the Reynolds Wrap Heavy Duty. It blocks out government brainwashing attempts, and alien communication attempts, and it is also a zombie repellant, although there are signs some zombies are becoming immune.

[TNrifleman]

Guys (redfsr) is exactly right with his comments, its only used for recovered crime guns, which most have been stolen or sold a dozen times since the original owner. Its nothing to worry about.

[Guest jimdigriz]

Guys (redfsr) is exactly right with his comments, its only used for recovered crime guns, which most have been stolen or sold a dozen times since the original owner. Its nothing to worry about.

The government has abused its powers too many times for it to be trusted with such information. Besides, how can anyone trust the BATFE, after their clusterf***s of the early 90s?

I wonder if the people of the U.K. were repeatedly counseled that "its nothing to worry about" prior to their guns being taken away.

[TNTitan]

I can see clearly now.....the rain has gone. Thanks TnTitan. I'd call you TT, but that would just rapidly degrade your nickname into something you might not like for every future TGO event.

for short!

[Guest Traumaslave]

Guys (redfsr) is exactly right with his comments, its only used for recovered crime guns, which most have been stolen or sold a dozen times since the original owner. Its nothing to worry about.

But, someone give me "FIRST HAND" credible info that they have had a firearm returned to them .

[redfsr]

First hand info...... I've returned guns myself after learning they were reported stolen even though the serial number was not provided. Oh yeah, after the ATF traced them for me.

Edited November 7, 2009 by redfsr

[USMCJG]

First hand info...... I've returned guns myself after learning they were reported stolen even though the serial number was not provided. Oh yeah, after the ATF traced them for me.

And how many of those ever made it back to their rightful owners?

[deafdogdief]

Anybody care to email me plans for a good tinfoil hat? maybe we should make these things out of something more sturdy.

,

Edited November 7, 2009 by deafdogdief
Better not say what I was thinking.

[deafdogdief]

I'm sure AG Holder will gets right on it.

Right after ACORN gets dissolved.

[deafdogdief]

First off, Corzine was voted out of office last Tuesday!

A**H*LE piece of

NJ firearm laws are probably the most restrictive in the country. (that's why I'm leaving).

Second - Im not sure it is legal to share this information the way they are doing. The way I read it, is information is only to be used in a investigation by the court and people involved only. Not the state.

But NJ breaks it's own laws on a daily basis.

They don't call it the Soprano state for nothing.

They also passed the one gun a month law that is stupid. "Criminals don't care about laws". NJ is so anti-gun it makes me sick.

I'll be in America real soon!

Try New York State. That's one of the reasons why I left. All handguns have to be registered on your permit. In my county one had to appear before a judge and prove why s/he needed one and then graduate from an open carry to concealed carry. You were not allowed to take a handgun out of a store case unless you already possessed a permit. Not to mention the prohibitive price. This was a while ago and I'm sure it's not much better now.

[Guest Gun Geek]

I prefer to use the Reynolds Wrap Heavy Duty. It blocks out government brainwashing attempts, and alien communication attempts, and it is also a zombie repellant, although there are signs some zombies are becoming immune.

Wierd I pick up radio signals when I use it. Sometimes alien transmissions. Of course its like listening to a radio at least its not being beamed directly into my brain.

But, someone give me "FIRST HAND" credible info that they have had a firearm returned to them .

First hand, no but I have hear of only ONE case.

[DaveTN]

But, someone give me "FIRST HAND" credible info that they have had a firearm returned to them .

I’ve recovered many stolen firearms that were returned to their rightful owners.

All too often when the owners report a firearm theft they don’t know the serial number, or get it wrong. But if they get it right, the numbers were entered in LEADS (back then) and if the gun passed through the hands of cops; it got a hit.

I have recovered stolen guns on everything from family fights to traffic stops.

I have absolutely no care whatsoever if the Feds have my gun purchase information. At least I know they aren’t going to allow a newspaper to print my name and address like the state of Tennessee does.

[Chief07]

Try New York State. That's one of the reasons why I left. All handguns have to be registered on your permit. In my county one had to appear before a judge and prove why s/he needed one and then graduate from an open carry to concealed carry. You were not allowed to take a handgun out of a store case unless you already possessed a permit. Not to mention the prohibitive price. This was a while ago and I'm sure it's not much better now.

Yea I guess NY is bad too.

But did you know in NJ you need a seperate pistol permit for a BB pistol?

Talk about dumb.

And oh ya, Sling shots are now baned under the latest gun legelsation.

The one gun month is a joke, I usually takes 3-6 months to get your paperwork back from the powers that be.

And a carry permit is out of the question. Only a state judge can issue one. (That ain't gonna happan).

Yes sir Tennessee looks good to me!

[deafdogdief]

Yea I guess NY is bad too.

But did you know in NJ you need a seperate pistol permit for a BB pistol?

Talk about dumb.

And oh ya, Sling shots are now baned under the latest gun legelsation.

The one gun month is a joke, I usually takes 3-6 months to get your paperwork back from the powers that be.

And a carry permit is out of the question. Only a state judge can issue one. (That ain't gonna happan).

Yes sir Tennessee looks good to me!

Agreed! TN looks good to me as well. Do you think the most recent election for Governor will change any of this?

[res308]

I was following up on a case one time and called the Arrogant Tin-pan Fornicators to ask about a feller involved. Was checking to see if they kept a record of firearms and their owners. I got a long, drawn out denial of such from the woman on the other end of the line. "Everyone thinks we (ATF) keeps this massive data-base of firearms purchases and we do not."

Now, of course I'm shocked to find out they lied!

[fizik]

Gun registration at its best! I always figured they was keeping that stuff somewhere..To much paperwork to throw away and not save when buying a gun...Oh well,if they want them,they can have them back,starting with the bullets,one at a time!

Agreed, this is nauseating. I thought 4473s had to be destroyed by the BATFE after 7 years or some such thing.

[redfsr]

I was following up on a case one time and called the Arrogant Tin-pan Fornicators to ask about a feller involved. Was checking to see if they kept a record of firearms and their owners. I got a long, drawn out denial of such from the woman on the other end of the line. "Everyone thinks we (ATF) keeps this massive data-base of firearms purchases and we do not."

Now, of course I'm shocked to find out they lied!

They don't. What part of the tracing process do you not understand? They don't have a database. They can't pull up Johnny Dope and tell anyone, including themselves what firearms Johnny Dope has. If Johnny Dope has a gun turn up in a crime, they trace the gun by first contacting the manufacturer. They can't begin tracing a gun without the make, model, caliber and serial #.

Stop speculating and get the facts straight.

I am a pro-gun patriot that would die for this country and my rights as a free citizen, yet I support the ATF and their mission. They do more for the community than most of you realize by keeping violent felons off the streets than your state does. They take the worst ones that TN chooses to keep letting out and put them behind bars for a long sentence to serve.

I've met many ATF agents (am close friends with some) and don't know of any one of them that are anti-gun. In fact, most are gun collectors themselves and will tell you to spend your last dollar on a gun if you want. Their main mission is combating violent crime and if you aren't a violent felon, gang member, dealing drugs, dealing firearms without a license or illegally dealing firearms to prohibited persons, you shouldn't be in fear of them. Like I've said before, hate on the politicians that are being elected and appointed. I know some of them don't even support some of the NFA regulations but politicians made the rules.

Edited November 9, 2009 by redfsr

[redfsr]

And how many of those ever made it back to their rightful owners?

Did you not read what I said? I returned them to their rightful owners.