ETSU Students Protest For Campus Carry

[Marswolf]

Update on this story:

ETSU has now decided the students may carry their holsters

http://www.johnsoncitypress.com/Detail.php?Cat=HOMEPAGE&ID=60440

Will ETSU students have to holster their planned rally?

Jay Adkins, vice president of ETSU’s marksmanship club, stands with an empty holster. The university is reconsidering the decision to ban the “empty holster†demonstration. (Lee Talbert / Johnson City Press)

By Sam Watson

Press Education Writer

swatson@johnsoncitypress.com

An “empty holster†demonstration to promote campus firearm possession is getting a second look from East Tennessee State University administrators after they initially warned a student club that participation could result in discipline.

“I was real happy to hear that they’re reconsidering that,†Jay Adkins, a vice president in ETSU’s Marksmanship Club, said Monday. “I was surprised at the reaction that I got, because right off the bat, it was a reaction of, ‘No, this can’t be done. It’s inappropriate.’â€

Club members had approached administrators about their intentions to don empty holsters for a national event organized by Students for Concealed Carry on Campus to support legislation that would allow permit holders to carry concealed handguns on college campuses.

On its Web site, the national group cites last spring’s deadly Virginia Tech rampage and the 1999 Columbine High School massacre as reasons for the movement.

“After such tragedies as Columbine and Virginia Tech, it is abundantly clear that the only way to stop mass murderers is to have responsible citizens in the classroom and on campuses able to carry their licensed handguns,†the site states.

Opponents, including the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, argue that allowing concealed firearms on campuses would dramatically increase gun violence risks to college students.

ETSU administrators originally shot down the idea of local participation in the empty holster demonstration, informing Adkins that any student seen wearing an empty holster on the campus would face discipline for disorderly conduct. Anyone who refused to remove a holster would face further sanctions for failing to cooperate with institutional officials.

In an e-mail to Adkins dated Wednesday, ETSU Associate Vice President for Student Affairs and Dean of Students Joe Sherlin also noted deaths on other campuses as reason for the administration’s position.

“Particularly in light of recent campus shootings, wearing a firearm holster on the campus can be intimidating and unreasonably disturbing to others and can create a disruption to campus activities,†Sherlin wrote.

But on Friday, Sherlin said administrators were re-evaluating the original ruling and doing more research for a final determination. Attorneys at ETSU and its governing body, the Tennessee Board of Regents, were involved.

“That was our initial response out of the box, but we continue to gather information on it and are in consultation with legal counsel on it even further, and we have decided that we need to take a look at it,†Sherlin said.

Sherlin said the administration’s main concern was how others might react to seeing empty holsters at ETSU.

“There’s a potential to create disturbance on the campus,†he said. “We have individuals coming in and out of campus. It’s a possibility that they could be disturbed by someone in a holster. They would not know if they have a firearm, and that could create a disruption.â€

Regardless of the administration’s decision about the empty holster demonstration, Sherlin said, club members would be free to use other methods to express themselves on the issue.

“The request to have the protest has never been in question,†Sherlin said. “They’re free to protest on the campus and make their cause known, distribute literature. The only issue that’s in question is the request to use empty firearm holsters.

“Freedom of speech is a key to a university as a marketplace of ideas. It happens all the time, and that’s part of what we’re about.â€

Adkins characterized his intentions in approaching the administration as a courtesy rather than a request.

“I didn’t feel that we really required permission, but I wanted to be up front,†Adkins said. “If somebody were to have concerns, we wanted the administration (and) we wanted campus safety to know what was going on so that things couldn’t get escalated unnecessarily.â€

Although he spoke of that potential for escalation, Adkins said he did not consider the administration’s concerns about disruption legitimate, given the Marksmanship Club’s intentions of publicizing the empty holster campaign.

“We were going to have flyers all over campus,†Adkins said. “We were going to be getting the word out that this was going to be happening. So, this was not going to be just students showing up one day with holsters.â€

He dismissed the notion that students, employees and campus safety officers would have difficulty differentiating between an empty holster and a real threat.

“I would think if someone saw a holster, they would look and see there’s not a gun in there,†he said. “If it’s not in the holster, it would be in your hand. If they see a gun in your hand, that’s going to raise an alarm.â€

Adkins had a similar take on how people on campus would differentiate between someone carrying a weapon for protection and someone with harmful intent, saying campuses would be no different than shopping malls and other locations where permit holders can legally carry firearms.

“We just want our rights to extend on the campus just like all of our other rights do,†Adkins said.

[Mark@Sea]

Campus hysterics, trying hard to bubblewrap the apparently never-to-be-allowed-to-mature, barring the way of those who strive for responsibility. Good for you, Mr. Adkins!

By the way, can the campus legally bar the wearing of empty holsters?

[Guest Phantom6]

IMHO that Jay Adkins boy is a pretty sharp character. If the school is going to ban holsters, what are they going to ban next? Pants? I carry a pistol in my pants pocket quite often and if folks knew that, they might get upset if they saw me in a pair of pants. Of course it could be worse. I could favor Mars' favorite deep cover garment- Thunderwear. Boy that would make them reconsider that pants ban thing. "Alright folks, check your drawers at the gate please.":eek:

ETSU, don't "strip" the students of their right to protest peacefully even if you won't let them protect themselves!

[Marswolf]

By the way, can the campus legally bar the wearing of empty holsters?

Apparently after some discussion the administrators decided that would be a violation of the students free speech rights. So I guess the answer is "no."

[saintsfanbrian]

Good for ETSU. I wonder if Memphis State er University of Memphis would do this. I reckon not.

[creeky]

It would be nice if a majority of the campuses would all protest on the same day.

[Guest db99wj]

Good for ETSU. I wonder if Memphis State er University of Memphis would do this. I reckon not.

Check out this thread on XDtalk. It is all about this grassroots effort.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48328&highlight=holster

Page 3 has a list of schools that are active in this.

[saintsfanbrian]

Well, I was wrong. I can't believe it. Though considering it's location in this city and the fact that a young man was recently murdered on campus it only makes sense.

[Guest db99wj]

I know, I was shocked that the UofM was on there.

[Tim Nunan]

Since there is is this kind of support for handguns at ETSU not to mention that fact that there is a markmanship club one does wonder why a TFA chapter couldn't be maintained in the Tri-Cities. Could it be that those that attempted it just didn't stick with it nor attempt to reach all the potential members?

[Westwindmike]

But I'm not wearing a gun holster. This is my new cell phone holster.

[Marswolf]

Since there is is this kind of support for handguns at ETSU not to mention that fact that there is a markmanship club one does wonder why a TFA chapter couldn't be maintained in the Tri-Cities. Could it be that those that attempted it just didn't stick with it nor attempt to reach all the potential members?

Tim, all of the above. But you were involved in that effort. You know what happened.

I tried to get involved in starting a chapter in the Tri-Cities, but the guy who was working on it never found time for us to get together. Guess he wanted to do it by himself. Except for a bit of PM between us, the story is pretty much on the TFA board.

IMHO, he picked a bad location and, to be fair to him, I don't think he had enough free time to work on it properly. A few posters in gun shops and club houses would have helped and there are a lot of ways to get free publicity that were not approached.

[SkWaShDeM]

Funny... not a day goes by when I'm not wearing an empty holster on campus... Since I'm one of the people who asked the higher ups at Campus Safety what their policies were about carrying to and from the school. You can check it in at the Campus Safety Office and they'll store it in the safe for you until you come back to get it. (Same place they store firearms for on-campus residents who want to make use of the service.) Or they'll tell you that you can follow the peaceable journey laws and leave it unloaded in your vehicle, with the ammo separated from the weapon.

Nobody's ever given me any funny looks when my holster was accidentally exposed as I went through classes.

[molonlabetn]

I carried a holster every time I was at MTSU after I started carrying.

Obviously this will have more influence if the holsters are carried 'openly'...

[Tim Nunan]

Tim, all of the above. But you were involved in that effort. You know what happened.

I tried to get involved in starting a chapter in the Tri-Cities, but the guy who was working on it never found time for us to get together. Guess he wanted to do it by himself. Except for a bit of PM between us, the story is pretty much on the TFA board.

IMHO, he picked a bad location and, to be fair to him, I don't think he had enough free time to work on it properly. A few posters in gun shops and club houses would have helped and there are a lot of ways to get free publicity that were not approached.

So after all the passing months/years no one else could have stepped up and taken charge? Nashville chapter has at least tried to continue the effort.

[Marswolf]

So after all the passing months/years no one else could have stepped up and taken charge? Nashville chapter has at least tried to continue the effort.

Well, I don't know about no one else, but I decided to take a more direct approach and get to know the lawmakers. With the mysterious cloak of secrecy prevalent at the TFA, I'm not even sure I'd join these days. Oooo, can't divulge the constitution except on the third full moon of the year at midnight and then only if you show up in person.

[bteague2]

Here's a message they sent out to students over facebook:

Dealing With the MediaTo members of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus Empty Holster Protest

Scott Lewis

Today at 1:32am

Reply

“Talk low, talk slow, and don't say too much.†-- John Wayne

Attention Empty Holster Protestors:

Because many of you may find yourselves speaking to reporters over the next couple of weeks, here are a few basic tips for dealing with the media:

1. You need to be more knowledgeable about the issue than the person to whom you're speaking. If a reporter asks you whether or not you think citizens of Vermont should be allowed to carry concealed handguns on college campuses, and you find yourself thinking, “What’s so special about Vermont?†you're in trouble. Even if you've reviewed these pages before, review the SCCC FAQ and Answers pages.

http://www.concealedcampus<wbr>.org/faq.htm

http://www.concealedcampus<wbr>.org/arguments.htm

Then look at www.gunfacts.info and www.hangunlaws.us.

2. Stay on Topic. Don't get sidetracked onto issues of Constitutionality, concealed carry by teachers at high schools, assault weapons, political candidates, etc.

3. Once you've answered a question, shut up and wait for the next question. If you feel that you've adequately answered a question—even if you're worried it wasn't the most eloquent answer—stop talking. Don't feel that you have to say something just because the person doing the interview isn't talking. He or she will let you speak as long as you want. The more you say, beyond what you intended to say, the greater the risk that you'll stick your foot in your mouth.

4. Don't give highly controversial answers. It’s okay to mention the Second Amendment, but it’s not okay to use it as the crux of your argument. There are too many varying viewpoints on the second amendment for it to be an effectively persuasive answer. Also, don't focus on the notion that more guns lead to less crime. That type of controversial answer leads to a “he said/she said†scenario where nobody listening is really convinced of anything.

For example, instead of emphasizing that guns “make us safer†(a highly controversial notion), emphasize that guns “even the odds†(a less controversial notion). Instead of saying, “Campuses will be safer if students and faculty have the means to defend themselves,†say, “A person intent on committing a Virginia Tech-style massacre has less chance of succeeding if his or her potential victims have the means to defend themselves.â€

5. Keep your cool at all times. If the person conducting the interview is asking biased or “loaded†questions, stay calm, think through each question, identify the question’s flaws, point out why the question is misleading, restate the question in a less biased fashion, and then answer the restated question.

For example, if the interviewer asks, “Don't you think students feel safer knowing that there are no guns on campus?†you should immediately recognize two flaws in that statement. First, the question asks whether or not students FEEL safer, not whether or not students ARE safer. Second, the question mistakenly assumes that there are no guns on campus, simply because the rules say guns aren't allowed. I would reply, “You mistakenly assume that those ‘gun free zone’ signs actually mean there are no guns on campus. How is anyone supposed to know for sure whether or not there are guns on a college campus? I'm sure all of those students at Virginia Tech felt pretty safe, prior to the massacre. To be perfectly honest, I'm much more concerned with people BEING safe than FEELING safe.â€

If the interviewer’s questions turn into a personal attack, be the bigger person--Politely but firmly state your belief that the current line of questioning is antagonistic and unproductive, and respectfully ask that the conversation return to the facts of the issue at hand.

6. Stick to the facts. Don't get sidetracked by emotion—yours or the interviewer’s. Questions and comments about the families of victims, as well as other such emotional rhetoric, have no place in an intelligent discussion of the facts.

7. Don't use inflammatory terms. Don't speak derogatively about any political figure, political party, or political ideology. Using terms like “liberal agenda†only serves to make more enemies, not win more allies. It’s okay to say you disagree with a specific person or stance, but you must say so in a constructive, positive way.

For example, it doesn't help our cause if you say, “Liberals like Barack Obama want to see honest citizens left defenseless against violent crime.†But it doesn't hurt to say, “I feel that politicians who support stricter gun control are focusing on the symptom, not the disease.â€

8. Don't give in to “what if†scenarios. Don't let the interviewer spend the entire interview playing the “what if†game. If he or she keeps asking “what if†this happened and “what if†that happened, simply point out that there are an infinite number of possible scenarios, none of which prove anything, in and of themselves. Likewise, don't try to make your own case with “what if†scenarios.

9. Speak like an educated adult. Use proper grammar, speak in complete sentences, and avoid slang and colloquialisms, as much as possible.

10. Relax, breathe, think, and speak. Before you answer any question, relax, breathe, think, and speak—in that order.

If a media representative stops you and asks if you'd be willing to answer some questions, feel free to do so. However, if you receive an email or phone call from someone wanting to set up an interview, please direct that person to either your campus leader or me. We want to make sure each campus presents a unified front. It's hard to do that if people are arranging interviews that we don't know about.

W. Scott Lewis

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus

Media Coordinator

(512) 925-5088 Voice

(512) 284-8973 Fax

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[Guest db99wj]

The top two links in point number 1 are great, not only for campus carry but they apply to our reasoning behind the law changing so that we can carry into resturants, parks, etc.

[creeky]

It's written very well. Sharp guy.

[Marswolf]

There is an art to doing effective interviews. This is a pretty good primer.

[Tim Nunan]

Well, I don't know about no one else, but I decided to take a more direct approach and get to know the lawmakers. With the mysterious cloak of secrecy prevalent at the TFA, I'm not even sure I'd join these days. Oooo, can't divulge the constitution except on the third full moon of the year at midnight and then only if you show up in person.

Heh

[Guest StudentsRightsAdvocate]

Here on Vanderbilt, the administration expressed concerns someone (the guy I was meeting with actually figured it would be a professor, lol) would freak out if they saw a holster and call our police dept. which would cause a campuswide lockdown until the threat or lack thereof was ascertained and dealt with.

I, of course, made it clear that if I had had time to do significantly penetrative advertising about the event, I would expect to be able to carry an empty holster unmolested, but since I didn't really get on board with this effort until, say, last Friday, I would accept that our fledgling group would wear our holsters on an area of campus in front of the dining hall where groups often reserve space and do awareness campaigns/fundraisers/whatever, where we would be handing out flyers and handouts and there would be a much lower chance of a potential freakout.

I feel kinda a like a punk for agreeing to this, but I'm only one man and I don't even have a group here on Vanderbilt's campus officially, or, really unofficially, yet, so I figured, hey. They're offering us seed money, help getting reserved space on The Wall and free Table reservations for that week AND they're helping me set up a concealed carry debate/forum sometime in November. Better to go with the flow, for now.

Speaking of which, do we have any TGO representatives that would like to be a part of a panel discussion about concealed carry on campuses or, I guess, concealed carry in general?

Thanks, guys.

[Guest 270win]

University campuses claim to respect rights, such as the freedom of speech. The reality is most universities respect the rights that the university agrees with and also a certain viewpoint. If you want to have an antiwar rally, peace march for the rights of those who seem to be 'disadvantaged' or 'discriminated', then sure you can have your freedom of speech.

I was very lucky that i went to college in Arkansas, and having a long gun, even loaded, on a college campus is not a crime. Criminally, i would have gotten in more trouble with an over length knife than a shotgun in a vehicle. Most of the campus police were well aware that people hunted...and even had concealed handgun licenses (you may have loaded handguns in cars when parked at schools in Arkansas). The problem is when some silly dean finds out you are well on your way to a judicial board hearing for breaking their policies. This is how ETSU is getting away with regulating students who want to carry a holster when they protest. The students are in no way legal for carrying empty holsters in Tennessee. The university doesn't like it, so they give you a hard time.

When i was in college a short time ago, a sex offender lived in the same dorm i did. It came to the attention to a police department 100 miles away that he did not register in Fayetteville, Arkansas as a sex offender with the Fayetteville or University Police. The guy was a little off anyway...but when guys found out of course they would have done about anything (a good butt kicking) to get him to depart where we lived. Low and behold out of town police came, picked him up, booked him, and got the nutcase registered with Fayetteville. By the way, the Conway, AR police found a sword, over length knives, and even one of those middle ages Mace (spiked ball) in his room. What did he get for breaking all sorts of laws? He was placed in MARRIED student housing where there are kids in order to protect him from angry students in his old dorm. If the administration found the rifle in my car on campus, i highly doubt i would have been taken care of like the pervert. Universities are run by some real bright lightbulbs who have no idea who really needs to be protected!

[Guest NELSON]

I think it is great that students are trying to actually get changes made. I am in Kentucky and I had a really big problem when someone asked me to wear an empty holster to class next week. In Kentucky the school does have policy banning weapons on campus, however state law also says the same. I am kind of worried if students do wear holsters and get interviews and make complete asses of themselves.

+1 for the links and being educated before you decide to "protest". Just make sure you are protesting to the right people.

[Marswolf]

I'm really impressed that these students have been able to pull this off. In our area, the initial denial of letting them carry empty holsters actually go them TV publicity when the university relented.