Where Will The Population Flee?

[Jamie Jackson]

Good Thread!

It's also good to hear/read some local & regional perspectives on the possible scenarios, and thoughts on "What to do if...?"

It's tough.

We have all of the commitments and responsibilities of every day living in front of us.

Most of us have families that we must provide for and care for...short term and long term.

Tin Foil Hat / Conspiracies?

I agree that the MSM has way too much mis-direction and B.S. content to be very useful. You really have to look closely to see or hear truly worthwhile information.

But I think we all agree: Times are more perilous than they were. We (collectively) have shirked our duties and responsibilities thus allowing a group of incompetents to run our Great Country and they are rapidly bankrupting us all.

Interesting Times, Indeed.

We have to do the best we can to care for those we love, and to make the best sustainable lives for them and ourselves that we can.

Prepping is a means to that end.

"Game Planning" and working several alternatives to various SHTF situations is another means. Redundancy helps, in all areas of our Preps.

I don't think the "Black Helicopters" are circling. I don't think the "Gubbermint" is planning on raiding my home and taking my food and guns.

But the incompetence I'm witnessing on Federal and State levels reinforce to me that providing for myself and my family is more of a challenge daily, and of a greater necessity than I ever would have thought.

Naive? Maybe...

I greatly appreciate the contributions by all of this thread.

Reading the well thought replies, "What if's", and suggestions makes me glad I chose this part of the country to make my home.

There's a lot of like minded, sensible, and preparedness minded folks around and about.

That's a "Good Thing".

Regards,

Prag

FWIW: I find Frugal's forum and Rawles Survivalblog useful.

I do occasion WSHTF and a few other, but read more than post.

Life is a learning situation.

Just my $.02 worth.

[raydog1]

Did anyone see Apocolypse Man on History Channel last weekend? He actually suggests going to the city center, but being very careful and selective about what you look for there.

Apocalypse Man

[Krull]

Did anyone see Apocolypse Man on History Channel last weekend? He actually suggests going to the city center, but being very careful and selective about what you look for there.

Apocalypse Man

And kick it with the zombies? No thanks I saw "I am Legend"

[MCSCOTT]

And kick it with the zombies? No thanks I saw "I am Legend"

I agree. No city living for me in a SHTF situation. I always kinda like the thought of having a whole city like that to myself though. It seemed to drive him crazy not having anyone to talk to, but I think I would do pretty good. Reguardless of how long all of my posts are on internet forums, in real life I really don't like talking to people much.

[Jamie Jackson]

Did anyone see Apocolypse Man on History Channel last weekend? He actually suggests going to the city center, but being very careful and selective about what you look for there.

I watched some of it.

I understand the concept within the parameters he prefaced. But Man, talk about Ninja Skills.

I realize he's Force Recon. I'd kill myself trying some of the feats he pulled.

If after a total TEOTWAWKI situation, I guess I could understand scavenging where I could... especially in regards to medications needed for those I care for.

For myself, I think I would want to be far away form a major city.

I found The History Channel's After Armageddon : Flu Pandemic more interesting...even if I did yell at the TV a time or two.

[Oh Shoot]

Did anyone see Apocolypse Man on History Channel last weekend? He actually suggests going to the city center, but being very careful and selective about what you look for there.

Apocalypse Man

Most of it was rambo fantasy, I thought.

One small example: leave a tall building covertly by shinnying down interior elevator cables.

Sure, everybody could safely do that.

Right.

- OS

[Mike.357]

the biggest farce of that show was no guns involved.

surely Rudy Reyes would have a gun.

[raydog1]

the biggest farce of that show was no guns involved.

surely Rudy Reyes would have a gun.

A friend of mine suggested the show after we discussed survivalist theories and that was my main complaint about the show to her.

He scavenges a building for steel wool, but doesn't even think about checking out the gun shop (probably right next door) for a shotgun or three??? Clearing buildings armed only with a flashlight? The Force is obviously stronger with him than with me.

However, the History Channel's core demographic may not be greatly populated with gun owners. So maybe it was a network decision to leave out firearms.

[raydog1]

Most of it was rambo fantasy, I thought.

One small example: leave a tall building covertly by shinnying down interior elevator cables.

Sure, everybody could safely do that.

Right.

- OS

Agreed. Thirtysomething year old Force Recon Soldier. No problem. Fortysomething year old couch potato. . . eh prolly not.

[Magiccarpetrides]

Agreed. Thirtysomething year old Force Recon Soldier. No problem. Fortysomething year old couch potato. . . eh prolly not.

heck 25yr old couch potato(me)...definitely not lol.

[Mike.357]

However, the History Channel's core demographic may not be greatly populated with gun owners. So maybe it was a network decision to leave out firearms.

I doubt that. History Channel shows lots of programming featuring firearms.

[trblmkr13]

I would guess History channel's core audience is veterans and gun owners, Liberals don't care about history unless they are trying to rewrite it

[raydog1]

You guys are probably right. Definitely seems strange that weapons were never mentioned once. A mystery for sure.

[Guest Dragonman]

HC might be trying to recruit a new audience. Their programming tastes sure have changed the last few years. I watched an episode of Survivor man just for sh*ts and giggles and wasn't too terribly impressed. Couple good ideas on there but saw some pretty far out stuff too. Like his scenario where he was talking about traversing a raised bridge because the locals raised the bridge to keep the unwashed masses out. Guess the writers didn't think there would probably be folks pulling guard duty.

Most of the posts here have some good points to ponder that some haven't thought of. I find it very humorous that for the longest time "survivalists" were laughed at and now the PC crowd has coined the term "preppers" and it's okay to plan ahead again (no offense to folks here just making an observation about society as a whole). Guess the combination of the current administrations determination to turn America into a third world country and natural disasters like Katrina have made folks stop and ponder a few points.

[JAB]

I found The History Channel's After Armageddon : Flu Pandemic more interesting...even if I did yell at the TV a time or two.

You mean like when his wife shot the guy at the warehouse, dropped the revolver and they proceeded to leave both the revolver (their only firearm) and the now-available (belonged to the newly dead guy) battle rifle lying there? Or maybe the part where the dad took the shotgun away from the little girl who was trying to shoot his son - but in the next scene he didn't have a shotgun (what, did he just give it back?)

My favorite 'that was stupid' part was how the dad died at the end as the result of an infection from a very small wound. In the scenes near the end (shortly before the dad died), talking about the food supply the folks would need, the narrarator went into detail as to how they would have to grow a lot of root vegetables - potatoes and so on - in order to have the energy to do all the work needed. Irish potatoes contain iodine (that is why they turn a reddish brown when exposed to air.) If no antibiotic rub or medicine is available, you can slice a cleaned potato and use the cut part to cover the wound, effectively putting a weak iodine on it. Better yet, they also made a big deal about how the community pretty quickly started distilling white lightning. Hmmm...there is a general name for that stuff and other drinks like it. Ah, yes - alcohol! That stuff makes a pretty good antiseptic. There was no reason the dad (supposedly a paramedic, at that) should have gotten a fatal infection in what was, essentially, a scratch.

Edited January 26, 2010 by JAB

[Oh Shoot]

... Ah, yes - alcohol! That stuff makes a pretty good antiseptic. There was no reason the dad (supposedly a paramedic, at that) should have gotten a fatal infection in what was, essentially, a scratch.

Well, there's ultimately no guarantee of preventing all infections in a wound, large or small, with alcohol or anything else.

People die daily from staph and strep even with the best antibiotics medicines have.

Thought that part was a good reminder that many of the small things we don't think much about now would become major factors in EOTWAWKI. Dental problems are another. Back in Woodland Period, oral infections were a common killer right up there with childbirth and warfare for native Americans.

I agree with what seemed to be idiotic behavior on their parts re not picking up guns and whatnot, but then again, in the early shock period of a big breakdown, folks aren't exactly going to be thinking on all cylinders, especially those who have no previous experience with firearms or even a minimal mindset regarding physical aggression. 'Course, screenwriter could have merely dropped the continuity ball, too.

- OS

[JAB]

Well, there's ultimately no guarantee of preventing all infections in a wound, large or small, with alcohol or anything else.

People die daily from staph and strep even with the best antibiotics medicines have.

- OS

True. My point was more that those alternate antiseptics weren't even mentioned, as if they weren't even considered. The potato thing is understandable - not sure how many folks would know about that - but the alchohol thing is pretty obvious. I guess it bugged me that the 'paramedic' didn't even think to try it even though he had the wherewithal to have some homeopathic remedies on hand. Given that he had mint leaves to use to help clear congestion, you'd have thought that he would have the forethought to keep a supply of alchohol on-hand specifically for use as an antiseptic.

[Oh Shoot]

True. My point was more that those alternate antiseptics weren't even mentioned, as if they weren't even considered. The potato thing is understandable - not sure how many folks would know about that - but the alchohol thing is pretty obvious. I guess it bugged me that the 'paramedic' didn't even think to try it even though he had the wherewithal to have some homeopathic remedies on hand. Given that he had mint leaves to use to help clear congestion, you'd have thought that he would have the forethought to keep a supply of alchohol on-hand specifically for use as an antiseptic.

All plenty valid.

Mainly, it's hard to say whether this stuff was a screenplay logic lapse, or a clumsy on purpose omission just to make the point.

- OS

[JAB]

All plenty valid.

Mainly, it's hard to say whether this stuff was a screenplay logic lapse, or a clumsy on purpose omission just to make the point.

- OS

Could have been either. I guess I just found it ironic since all through the show they kept saying that survivors will be people who can 'think outside the box' or come up with solutions that other people might not - then one of the main characters dies as a result of an infection without even trying a pretty obvious 'alternate antiseptic.'

I do think that they did a good job conveying the idea that, if society were to break down to such a level, it would pretty quickly be every person/family/small group for themselves. Even when he stopped to help the injured guy (okay, it was a little cheesy that the same guy later showed up and gave them a ride) the dad didn't spend a whole lot of time/effort. He bandaged the wound, gave him a little medicine and some water then left the injured guy there, alone, with a, "Good luck."

I also like how they pointed out that, while our technology might be set back to 1800s level or so, we would be a bit of a 'hybrid' society. In other words, the discoveries that had been made since the 1800s - and the knowledge that goes along with them - would still exist. In their scenario, the experts might be wiped out but textbooks containing and explaining such knowledge would still exist - as would technical manuals, etc. Society wouldn't need to reinvent the wheel, simply get back to the point that the time/resources were available to utilize that knowledge.

Edited January 26, 2010 by JAB

[Guest forrestcav]

SKILLS!!!!! research old skills. learn a non electric trade. I'm an EMT,& horseshoer. But I can also forge, frame, plumb, wire, and farm. Take a lesson from how the amish live, simply. I believe the "takers" will prey on others in the cities then spread out. Protect you and yours at all costs. I live 70 miles south of nashville, but near the interstate, the cut at around mile 92 is another choke point that could be come inpassable.

If you have rural land then look into getting a well and a wellbucket, they're long and narrow to fit in the small diameter pipe.

Garden seeds, non hybrid, herloom varities, order them, learn how to save them from year to year. the GMO and hybrids will be worthless after the first year.

First-aid, learn it, then relearn it again and again. if nothing else read the Boy Scout Handbook.

just a few of my thoughts on the subject, take them for what they're worth.

[Guest ogreabroad]

Something else that no one has mentioned yet... is nuclear fallout. Many parts of this nation would become deadly places to live. Even if it wasnt a natural disaster, many who work at the plants would stay home to protect their families, or possibly die in the aftermath. There has been a bit of talking about hunting in the time after society collapses... but that wouldnt be an option if nuclear reacters were to start melting down... Those of you who are still trying to figure out where they could go in an event like this might want to take that into account. Insofar as meat, Rabbits might be a suitable option. They have relatively short lifespans, and breed quickly.

A google image search on Nuclear Fallout brings up a map that FEMA put together... shows that Southern TN and Eastern TN will be safer in this situation...

ETA... Im still relatively young on my path to preparations... so feel free to point out any problems with my way of thinking... i welcome them, as they will only help me and whoever reads this to open our collective eyes... and a big TY to the OP and all useful contributors... GREAT thread!

Edited February 16, 2010 by ogreabroad

[Oh Shoot]

...ETA... Im still relatively young on my path to preparations... so feel free to point out any problems with my way of thinking.....

You seem to be mixing nuclear power plants and nuclear missiles into the same bag. You say "fallout" but talk only of nuclear plant meltdown.

"Fallout" requires an explosion. A power plant meltdown would irradiate, but would not create the same type of fallout risk pattern as a nuclear bomb/warhead, not to mention the immediate destruction comparison.

At any rate, nuclear plants are designed to be shut down quite quickly and even automatically, and are "hardened" against EMP attack, meaning that they can at least generate enough internal power to cover the fuel rods and shut down. Supposedly failsafe against internal manual intentional sabotage. How well would this work in actuality? Not sure anyone except a double naught seven security cleared expert probably knows.

As far as actual coordinated thermonuclear missile attack and East TN, two words: Oak Ridge (although it's generally considered a secondary target, not primary).

My limited SHTF preps simply don't include nuclear war, except to perhaps break open the case of bourbon and steel myself to blow my brains out when the radiation sickness symptoms become severe.

Many think that rather than nuclear holocaust scenario, the greater likelihood is an EMP event. Two or three correctly placed blasts at the correct altitude = 300 million desperate people plunged into 1870.

Of course, this might also trigger silos and subs around the world to let things rip too, in which case see my above plan.

- OS

Edited February 16, 2010 by OhShoot

[MCSCOTT]

You seem to be mixing nuclear power plants and nuclear missiles into the same bag. You say "fallout" but talk only of nuclear plant meltdown.

"Fallout" requires an explosion. A power plant meltdown would irradiate, but would not create the same type of fallout risk pattern as a nuclear bomb/warhead, not to mention the immediate destruction comparison.

At any rate, nuclear plants are designed to be shut down quite quickly and even automatically, and are "hardened" against EMP attack, meaning that they can at least generate enough internal power to cover the fuel rods and shut down. Supposedly failsafe against internal manual intentional sabotage. How well would this work in actuality? Not sure anyone except a double naught seven security cleared expert probably knows.

As far as actual coordinated thermonuclear missile attack and East TN, two words: Oak Ridge (although it's generally considered a secondary target, not primary).

My limited SHTF preps simply don't include nuclear war, except to perhaps break open the case of bourbon and steel myself to blow my brains out when the radiation sickness symptoms become severe.

Many think that rather than nuclear holocaust scenario, the greater likelihood is an EMP event. Two or three correctly placed blasts at the correct altitude = 300 million desperate people plunged into 1870.

Of course, this might also trigger silos and subs around the world to let things rip too, in which case see my above plan.

- OS

I have to agree with your way of thinking on all of that. Personally I have a decent plan of action, and am decently prepared in a SHTF situation, but I simply do not have the means to plan for every possible scenario such as nuclear war. I know some have them, but I myself do not even have gas masks for other types of chemical warfare. Bottom line is, there are always possible situations where no matter how prepared we are we're not going to make it. I've also looked at other aspects such as the people around me (who are definately not prepared). I am lucky enough to have most of my immediate family close to my area where I can get to them, we can group up, and head to our safe location together. Personally if these close friends and family do not make it through then it wont really matter much to me if I make it or not either. I have the means to cover my own survival, but when you factor in the fact that I also have to cover other people's survival because they refuse to believe anything bad can happen, it puts the ability to prepare for everything way out of reach for me.

All I can hope for is that if a SHTF situation should arise, it begins slow enough that others can at least get partially prepared to help me out with my plans of action. I have to hope that there will be some kind of warning at least a day or more in advance. If not I suppose I will be the drunk crazy guy sittin on my roof shooting at everything that moves until I die.

[Guest ogreabroad]

You seem to be mixing nuclear power plants and nuclear missiles into the same bag. You say "fallout" but talk only of nuclear plant meltdown.

"Fallout" requires an explosion. A power plant meltdown would irradiate, but would not create the same type of fallout risk pattern as a nuclear bomb/warhead, not to mention the immediate destruction comparison.

At any rate, nuclear plants are designed to be shut down quite quickly and even automatically, and are "hardened" against EMP attack, meaning that they can at least generate enough internal power to cover the fuel rods and shut down. Supposedly failsafe against internal manual intentional sabotage. How well would this work in actuality? Not sure anyone except a double naught seven security cleared expert probably knows.

As far as actual coordinated thermonuclear missile attack and East TN, two words: Oak Ridge (although it's generally considered a secondary target, not primary).

My limited SHTF preps simply don't include nuclear war, except to perhaps break open the case of bourbon and steel myself to blow my brains out when the radiation sickness symptoms become severe.

Many think that rather than nuclear holocaust scenario, the greater likelihood is an EMP event. Two or three correctly placed blasts at the correct altitude = 300 million desperate people plunged into 1870.

Of course, this might also trigger silos and subs around the world to let things rip too, in which case see my above plan.

- OS

I am referring to a documentary I saw on the Discovery Channel a while back... cant quite put my finger on the name... Life After Humans or something like that... I remember that they said 6 Months after Humans, the Nuclear Reactors would begin to fail... Now, I know this is purely hypothetical... lots of what ifs. Im sure that SOME of them would be shut down correctly, assuming there were enough knowledgeable people with access... but what about those that werent?

Out of curiosity, I googled a map... and came up with this:

Basically... that Im a JackA$$... lol Just went to the image, and saw that it was a sample fallout pattern for a POTENTIAL nuclear attack on the US, put together by FEMA... thought it was the fallout from nuclear meltdowns of the existing plants...

Go ahead n point n laugh, I know i did... finally thought I had something worthwhile and original to post, and i am now choking on my knee...

[Oh Shoot]

..Life After Humans or something like that... I remember that they said 6 Months after Humans, the Nuclear Reactors would begin to fail... Now, I know this is purely hypothetical... lots of what ifs. Im sure that SOME of them would be shut down correctly, assuming there were enough knowledgeable people with access... but what about those that werent?..

Would take a neutron bomb big enough to wipe out all of us at once, yet not damage infrastructure.

In that case, what's to worry about, eh?

Fascinating series btw, I think I've seen them all.

- OS