Where Will The Population Flee?

[Jonsaiga]

I think the vast majority of folks will be stuck in a state of denial until it is to late. Like the folks after Katrina. They will sit and wait for someone to save them. During this time waiting, they will be consuming what food and water they may have on hand. By the time they pull their head out of the sand and realize help isn't coming they will start to panic and mayhem will ensue. Urban areas will be the worst as fear, panic and desperation spread like wild fire(mob mentality). Smaller communities will fair better if they can pull together.

If your are in one of these smaller communities, and you truly believe a scenario such as this can come to pass, then it would behoove you to get to know your neighbors now. Build friendships now, help each other out where and when you can now, learn who you can come to rely on now, build a real community around you now. Get away from the impersonal, disconnected lifestyle that has tragically become the norm.

No matter how much stuff one manages to squirrel away, food, water, guns, ammo, medical supplies, etc. etc,.....there will be times when you will need help. Who is going to watch/guard your stuff while your out hunting, foraging, gardening or just trying to sleep or if you or a family member gets sick or injured? It sure would be nice to have the option of help.

For those that plan on "running to the hills", do you know how to hunt? Are you hunters now? Have you ever been hunting and came back empty handed? What do you think the odds of harvesting game is when you haven't showered in days, weeks or months and the game is under extreme hunting pressure from the other folks with the same plan? How many times can you afford to expend the energy trying to hunt only to come up empty handed, especially when traversing rough terrain? How good are you at primitive living skills? What are your plans for shelter, fire, water, etc?

Hunting sounds good at first but it eats up a lot of time, energy and is not always productive. If running to the hills is your plan then a better idea would be trapping(game, fowl and fish) and foraging for wild edible plants instead. Traps and snares can hunt 24/7/365. You can forage while checking your sets so you are killing two birds with one stone so to speak. Also, don't just wonder out aimlessly into the wilds. Spend the time scouting different areas to see what resources are available, how accessible the area is, how remote is it(odds of encountering other people there), etc.

A better alternative still would be to try to find friends in those small communities. Help out where and when you can and see about hooking up with them should an event such as this ever come to pass. Get a pull behind camper, start storing food, clothing, tools, needed RX meds, etc. Either store the camper at their place or pull it over there once you decide to bug out. Another option would be to find a couple acres of really remote raw land with plenty of natural resources for sale and buy it out right now. Some of these places, if you hunt around, can be had for a few grand an acre. Then either put a camper or build a small cabin on it and cache a bunch of supplies and tools. Plant fruit and nut trees, berry bushes and other low maintenance edibles on the property. Not only will it provide you with a source of food but will bring in the wildlife too.

As far as what the ideal part of the country to live in goes. we chose the south due to the long growing season. JMHO....OMV.

[Oh Shoot]

I see the significant dependance on meds of various kinds as one of the most troubling aspects of a true "fan" scenarion. ...

Well, one biggie is insulin.

You can't store it for long, even with refrigeration, so you can't really stock up on it for any long term meltdown.

- OS

[Guest KarlS]

Jonsaiga you have many good points. I think some of what you say depends on where you live. City, suburbs, country or wilderness? We ourselves are actively looking for the right place that will give us much of what we'll need and what's missing we'll add. A large enough piece of land that family will tend and watch. Far enough away that fuel consumption may deter some from attempting to reach it. I feel the true masses of people will hang in the cities and suburbs waiting or looking for help. It may take awhile for them to leave the security of the city as supplies dwindle. Hanging on to what you've accumulated will be critical!

Survival and hunting shouldn't be a problem for our family if we can ward off the intruders. I'm very fortunate to have married an AK native who subsisted most of her life in a remote village. She taught our daughters how to live off the land while I taught our sons how to hunt and fish. I'm also taking a different approach to hunting. I'll bring whatever game in I can over bait. Even small amounts of corn will bring deer, bear, turkeys, squirrels, and various birds. Even food scraps and carcasses can act as bait. Yes normal hunting would be time consuming.

The big hangup is still medicine.. Still a problem as prescriptions won't be written so meds will have to be stolen. Pharmacies will be looted. Medications will be past their normal shelf life and as OS mentioned some need refrigeration. What about access to Canadian pharmacies?

[greenego]

For an idea as what could happen get the book "One Second After" by William R. Forstchen. Story takes place in NC after an electromagnetic pulse weapon attack.

[mhm2a]

All of the posts have interesting points and fortunately I feel a pretty good about my plan as long as I can get out of town about 20 minutes to our family farm which has a well and a spring fed pond. We already have some large food plots for deer that are edible for us as well. The pond has been stocked with a variety of fish. There is limited access by road and we would not have to worry about the vast majority of the population knowing where we were. The neighbors are life long residents of the area and have livestock and horses although we do not know them well I think we would all be like minded during a disaster.

My fear would be not being able to get there or being separated from my family (Wife and two kids) when disaster strikes. We have a plan, but my Wife does not take it as seriously as I do. I have an ATV, dirtbike, etc...but I need to travel with atleast 4 people minimum so that leaves only 1 alternative that is capable which is my Jeep and it is slow and not very well protected from the elements (I do not own a top).

I suppose the thing to do would be to wait out the first wave of people leaving and regroup at home. Pack everything we need to survive the journey (supplies for three days to cover 20 miles) and then head out in that direction. The highways are small lesser traveled routes and no interstates so that would work in our favor. There are alternate routes but not without going out of the way a couple of miles. Anyways this thread gives me a lot to think about, but, I think I am way ahead of the average person that I come in contact with day to day which does give me a little peace of mind.

[Guest KarlS]

Anyways this thread gives me a lot to think about, but, I think I am way ahead of the average person that I come in contact with day to day which does give me a little peace of mind.

That was it's intent..To get us thinking ahead. To gather others ideas and make us aware of weak points in our plans. Good luck!

[Magiccarpetrides]

The more time that passes the less I worry about this sort of thing. Funny you think it would be the opposite. I have gas masks, body armor, means to purify a bunch of nasty water, lots of ammo, and some other essentials...the only thing im low on is non-perishable food....I guess it never hurts to be prepared, but these days I kind of just dont worry about it and am seeing a lot of my stuff as a waste of space and effort.

[Guest SUNTZU]

The more time that passes the less I worry about this sort of thing. Funny you think it would be the opposite. I have gas masks, body armor, means to purify a bunch of nasty water, lots of ammo, and some other essentials...the only thing im low on is non-perishable food....I guess it never hurts to be prepared, but these days I kind of just dont worry about it and am seeing a lot of my stuff as a waste of space and effort.

You never know when you might need an old car when the SHTF. Let's roll.

[Magiccarpetrides]

Haha...true, but I get to be the driver...you can be the "gimp" on the front.

[Guest SUNTZU]

Haha...true, but I get to be the driver...you can be the "gimp" on the front.

Lord Humungus kicks ass.

[Brandon]

For an idea as what could happen get the book "One Second After" by William R. Forstchen. Story takes place in NC after an electromagnetic pulse weapon attack.

+1

This is one book that will really get you to thinking. I have heard so many people talk about weapons and ammo when you start talking about preps, but in reality these are a very small part of being prepared.

[Moped]

Weapons and such are nice, but food and water are the basis for all survival. That must be the big Number one most important thing. Not only must you have both, but you must have the means to keep both in steady supply, throughout a crisis.

After that, some sort of shelter is the next most important thing. Shelter provides protection from the elements, animals, and if possible from other men.

Health, medicine and first aid come next. Cleanliness is next to godliness. Disease and infections will kill you faster than just about anything.

Transportation is pretty important too, for hunting, gathering and scavenging. Something we haven't really talked about is scavenging.

Weapons are probably about last on the least. While on weapons, as far as hunting goes, has anyone thought of going primative. In other words using bows and arrows, spears and such. Does anyone know how to make such weapons? Might be a good trick to learn and to use. Just a thought.

[Guest KarlS]

While on weapons, as far as hunting goes, has anyone thought of going primative. In other words using bows and arrows, spears and such. Does anyone know how to make such weapons? Might be a good trick to learn and to use. Just a thought.

I hope it doesn't get to the point that I become a spear chucker! I hadn't thought of primitive weapons but I could see where learning trapping basics would come in handy. Only me but I'm no archer and to make and use a primitive recurve bow may take some time and alot of practice. I do admire the folks that do master the recurve! Silent and deadly!

[Moped]

Really bad joke KarlS. But I understand what you mean. I'm not a master of the recurve either. However all it takes is practice just like shooting. It would probably make sense to not only learn how to shoot them but to get totally into them to the point if you had to, make your on bow and arrows. You would never be unarmed after that.

The reason I bring all this up is not to replace firearms, but to rather to save firearms for a defensive role instead of hunting/defensive role. Firearms are loud, by nature and may draw unwanted attention to the user in a survival situation. Primitive weapons offer a silent alternative for the hunting role.

Besides bows there are also slings, spears, and throwing sticks. I've seen Survivor Man use a throwing stick to bring down a rabbit.

All that said trapping is the way to go in order to supply fresh meat for the table. Not to mention fur for coats and leather for shirts and breeches. But other primitive weapons also have their place.

A good flintlock rifle might be a part of your gear, if you can make powder or lead balls.

[Guest cjr]

I'm not a DR at all... but just knowing the chemical makup of copaxone as primarily a polymer of 4 essential and non essential amino acids, which are readily available seperately as OTC supplements, it would possibly behoove you to consider researching and stocking up on those in lieu of a perscription shortage...

Lysine

Glutamic Acid

Alanine

Tyrosine

Take that for what it's worth... but there are always alternatives. I feel for ya though, and would be right there with ya as far as doing whatever is necessary to ensure the well-being of loved ones.

Thanks for the info Molonlabetn.I didnt think of OTC meds as a substitute,they would be easy to get and no one would have to get hurt.HAHA.

[Guest KarlS]

LOL Moped. It was just the picture I drew in my mind. I agree ,we just may have to know some of the primitive methods. Hard to think we'd have to go there. In my wife's native Alaskan heritage they used spears and bows and arrows all the time. It was mostly marine mammals and fish but it kept them going for hundreds of years. It was an amazing culture that we could learn a great deal from.

I'm sure there are some books out there that we could research on this subject.

[Guest emaho44]

What a great thread!!! I hope it goes on and on and will be checking back frequently for some more good insights and ideas. Thanks to all for the thoughtful, sincere comments.

For myself, I live on the outskirts of a small (5,000) town about 40 miles west of Knoxville. Surrounded by water, but unfortunately close to I-40. I'm older and don't see a bug-out being an option for me, so I'll stick and try to make it at home. I've seen this coming for many years, and wish I'd never left the 80 acres I moved my young family to 40 years ago---big spring, plenty of fertile ground, woods galore. But, that's life. Five years ago, just before I retired, I traded houses (when you still could) and moved into a 900 sq ft earth-sheltered house---basically a concrete box with dirt pushed up around it. It had been gutted and rebuilt after a fire the year before, so I basically have a new home. There's a great south exposure for the big windows in front. It's up on a moderate hill above the street in an older, settled neighborhood. If the power went out (which I expect will happen), I could be comfortable without heat or air by dressing seasonably---furnace went out in December a couple of years ago and I went without heat for 36 hours in 20-degree daytime weather. Inside temp never dropped below 64 degrees. Without air, the highest inside temp has been 78-80. The attached garage has become a great, sheltered storeroom, and I've stashed about 3 months of canned food, and about year's worth of rice, beans and pasta. I can store about 300 gallons of water, and need to get busy filling the containers---researching that now.

I'm searching now for a solar system that will, at a minimum, generate enough power for a full-sized refrigerator and maybe a bit of low-watt lighting. I've already stashed a bunch of rechargeable batteries (AAA-AA-C-D) and a couple of solar chargers. Solar/crank/battery-powered radios (AM-FM-shortwave) radios can keep me in touch with whatever situation develops---not expensive, about $40.

That all sounds good, but I know I'd be a sitting duck for any determined attempt to take it all. So I have an arsenal of 5 handguns, a .22 scoped auto rifle and a shotgun and several thousand rounds of ammo (bought when I could find it a couple years ago. The guns are pretty and fun to shoot, but I don't fool myself into believing I'd be able to withstand an "assault". If food was the issue, I'd be more apt to share than shoot, if that was an option.

The weak spot here is that I live alone, so I agree heartily with the idea of becoming close to neighbors, and the community in general. My family is scattered between here and New Hampshire (Laconia), so my local married daughter is my prime support and concern. I'm a retired RN, so I expect I'd quickly be of use in the event of an "event". Heck, I could probably take out a hot appendix, if I had to.

As for meds, most will be potent long after the expiration date. I suggest vacuum-packing them, keeping them cool and dark. Seal-a-Meal is ideal for this. Regular insuling doesn't necessarily have to be refrigerated (although potency might be prolonged), but Lantus and 70/30 should be. Might be instructive to find out what the recommended temp is---sorry I don't know off the top of my head.

So, not bragging, but these are some of the preps I've been up to the last couple of years. I'm lucky in that, being retired, I've got a lot time to read and research this stuff. I don't know how and when the "unraveling" will occur, but I think we're seeing the first stages of it now, with the financial "crisis"---it's really way worse than the pols want us to know. We could experience a huge natural disaster that would cause a localized problem (flood, earthquake, storms, etc), but I think the troubles will take the form of a generalized meltdown of government services and control and a spread of civil disorder that might end up as bad as your worst nightmare.

I've come across several books and resources in my searching so, to end this, I'm going to list a few for anyone interested.

Books: (some fiction (F), some not (NF)---all interesting and fun)

The Long Emergency---James Howard Kunstler (NF)

World Made By Hand---Jmes Howard Kunstler (F)

Reinventing Collapse---Dmitry Orlov (NF)

How to Think Like a Survivor---Tom Watson (NF)

Emergency---Neil Strauss (NF)

Depletion and Abundance: Life On the New Home Front---Sharon Astyk (NF)

When Technology Fails---Matthew Stein (NF)

Dies the Fire---S. M. Sterling (F)

Web Sites/Blogs:

Life After the Oil Crash (see the "Breaking News" page)

Survival Blog (James Rawls' excellent site for all things "survival"

Whiskey and Gunpowder (see "Top 10 Things to Worry About in Surviving

a Bad Economy)

Supplies:

The overall best site I've found for basic, affordable survival tools and information in www.campingsurvival.com Good folks and good stuff.

That's it, or some of it. I've had a blast researching the present mess and where we seem to be headed. Keep your mind and heart open and your loved ones close.

Good luck to all. And thanks, again, to all posters.

[Guest emaho44]

A PS to the above: If you're looking for the books I named, or any others, do try the web site www.betterworldbooks.com They sell new and used, ship for free, and all profits go to support literacy efforts here and around the world. They may not have title in print, but it's definitely worth a look.

[Guest KarlS]

What a great thread!!! I hope it goes on and on and will be checking back frequently for some more good insights and ideas. Thanks to all for the thoughtful, sincere comments.

Thank you for a great contribution. Helpful info on storing meds. I will be gathering reading material from many posts on this thread. emaho44 we live an hour east of Laconia and are waiting ourselves to get to TN. It's nice here but we need to spread out and utilize warmer weather.

[DAdams]

I saw a thread where a guy with a .50 BFG made note of all the folks on threads that had "stuff". Went like this....

"My survival kit consists of a .50 BMG rifle and a list of people in the area who have posted their survival kits."

My response to that was.....

Since I will have them outranged, -.338 Lapua I will be using the guys with .50s as plinker fodder, then get down to business.

I have become somewhat of a student of SHTF scenario books as of late.

There are numerous scenarios, but in many cases 90% of the population is laid to waste based on some disaster/disease/comet/nuclear war/zombie hoards/alien invaders. That means that 9 our of 10 of us won't be around and the rest will be looking for sufficient drugs and alcohol to take the easy way out.

At my place we eat, drink, smoke and have a good time until its gone. I have the ultimate cocktail saved for when I have had enough.

Anyway some good reads:

Patriots Rawles

1 Second After Fortchen

Lucifers Hammer Niven

Earth Abides Stewart

The Road McCarthy

Wastelands Adams

World Made by Hand Kunstler

Alas Babylon Frank

On the Beach Shute

I am Legend Matheson

The Last Ship Brinkley

The Postman Brin

The Stand King

Just to name a few.

I sleep much better now knowing that I don't stand a chance and don't give a rats @ss. but I am loaded with alcohol, tobacco, firearms and other goods of interest....oh and a couple long rifles in .338 Lapua. Come on by and trade survival stories. Oh and

Don't forget to pick up a copy of the SAS Survival Guide. The pocket edition may serve one well.

Edited December 14, 2009 by DAdams

[Jonsaiga]

"My survival kit consists of a .50 BMG rifle and a list of people in the area who have posted their survival kits."

My response to that was.....

Since I will have them outranged, -.338 Lapua I will be using the guys with .50s as plinker fodder, then get down to business.

I can not speak for anyone else but the terrain and vegetation in my AO is such that being out ranged is not much of an issue. Longest range for a clear shot is probably at most 350 yards which is well within the capabilities of my own rifle(and myself). More common would be under 150 yards.

[Guest jackdm3]

12-15, 10:22 AM CDC recalls 800,000 doses of H1N1 vaccine. Ruh roh!

[jughead]

mine will be hard to recall i think. took it over a month ago

[Guest KarlS]

12-15, 10:22 AM CDC recalls 800,000 doses of H1N1 vaccine. Ruh roh!

Serious? Our 5 year old just got his on Saturday. Would have got ours but we weren't high risk. Ruh roh is right! Gotta look into this one. Thanks man.

Safe! They were already used...Last month. Good news for me bad for jughead^^. No they were kids and not strong enough. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34432437/ns/health-cold_and_flu/

Edited December 16, 2009 by KarlS
link

[DaveTN]

Serious? Our 5 year old just got his on Saturday. Would have got ours but we weren't high risk. Ruh roh is right! Gotta look into this one. Thanks man.

From the CDC...

Are there any concerns about safety of vaccines from these lots?

No. There are no safety concerns with these lots of H1N1 vaccine. All lots successfully passed pre-release testing for purity, potency and safety.

Should infants and children who received vaccines from these lots be revaccinated?

No. The vaccine potency is only slightly below the “specified†range. The vaccine in these lots is still expected to be effective in stimulating a protective response despite this slight reduction in the concentration of antigen. There is no need to re-administer a dose to those who received vaccine from these lots. However, as is recommended for all 2009 H1N1 vaccines, all children less than 10 years old should get the recommended two doses of H1N1 vaccine approximately a month apart for the optimal immune response. Therefore, children less than 10 years old who have only received one dose of vaccine thus far should still receive a second dose of 2009 H1N1 vaccine.

What action(s) should parents of children who have received vaccine from the recalled lots take?

Parents of children who received vaccine from the recalled lots do not need to take any action, other than to complete the two-dose immunization series if not already completed.

More here....

CDC H1N1 Flu | Non-Safety-Related Voluntary Recall of Sanofi Pasteur Pediatric Vaccine