Orwellian Overtness!

[Guest FroggyOne2]

LAPD’s creepy Orwellian anti-terrorism ad

The comments to this.. are a great read!

[Mike.357]

iWatch the man, because the man is trying to stick it to me.

[ftncityfatboy]

iWatch my ass cause its a cruel and nasty world out there!!

[TNTitan]

[TGO David]

The ad features wide-eyed, blink-free residents reciting Orwellian mantras and looking as if they’re about to crawl out of your television like that girl in "The Ring."

Lots of blinking in that video. Actually, lots of good information. Perhaps some of us here have heard of it before? A little thing called "Situational Awareness" ?

I swear, when did we start looking down our noses at being aware of what's going on around us and doing our civic duty by reporting things that don't look kosher? Did I miss something? Is being a good citizen now bad just because Obama's in the White House? At no point in that video did they tell you to report your neighbor with the NRA sticker on his car, or the guy who goes to Temple every Saturday.

Some of you need to loosen the tinfoil a little.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

My hat is Titanium! And it is custom fitted, thank you very much!

[TGO David]

Guy #1: OMG! That guy is noticing things!!!! REPORT HIM!!!!!

Guy #2: Dude, you noticed him noticing it... I'm reporting you!

Guy #3: WHOA, you noticed him noticing that guy noticing things!!!

Guy #4: I'm reporting all of you for noticing that guy noticing that stuff!!!!!

... ad nauseum

[strickj]

Lots of blinking in that video. Actually, lots of good information. Perhaps some of us here have heard of it before? A little thing called "Situational Awareness" ?

I swear, when did we start looking down our noses at being aware of what's going on around us and doing our civic duty by reporting things that don't look kosher? Did I miss something? Is being a good citizen now bad just because Obama's in the White House? At no point in that video did they tell you to report your neighbor with the NRA sticker on his car, or the guy who goes to Temple every Saturday.

Some of you need to loosen the tinfoil a little.

Im watching you!

[Mike.357]

My concern with this big brother stuff is who is watching big brother?

[leroy]

My concern with this big brother stuff is who is watching big brother?

A great and thought provoking question!! The truth is that George Orwell's 1984 is here. It came in the guise of "providing safety for the public", ect. ect. Most folks didn't notice --- some of them are now, however. Check this article out in none other than that socialist rag, the New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/25/world/europe/25surveillance.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

Interesting reading indeed!

Keep up the good work.

Kind regards,

LEROY

[TGO David]

My concern with this big brother stuff is who is watching big brother?

OOOO! Who's watching the people watching Big Brother?!? And who's watching THEM?!?!?

Come on. At some point you have to have at least a little faith in the systems of checks and balances put out there.

[Mike.357]

see my problem with big brother is that no one can watch them and I see it getting worse rather than better.

[Mike.357]

Nice article there Leroy

I think the opening paragraph sums things up fairly well with this line.

where security cameras lurk at every corner, giant databases keep track of intimate personal details and the government has extraordinary powers to intrude into citizens’ lives.

[Guest mikedwood]

That is a creepy Orwellian commercial but i'm with David. The actual content is some common sense advice presented in a creepy way. I'm not sure how well the program will work.

In Oak Ridge I can report an actual crime in progress and it's 50/50 if the authorities can get to it or not and if they do get there if they can do anything about it.

It's the YOUwatch program like they have in Britain that I don't like and they have started in Oak Ridge with the red light cameras.

They started the camera system in Britain to stop terrorism. Now they use it to fine spitters and people who don't pooper scoop, drop litter or whatever.

New "Big Brother" Style Poster In London

"On the wall outside his former residence - flat number 27B - where Orwell lived until his death in 1950, an historical plaque commemorates the anti-authoritarian author. And within 200 yards of the flat, there are 32 CCTV cameras, scanning every move."

George Orwell, Big Brother is watching your house| News | This is London

I read an article a few months ago they are putting cameras in peoples homes in Britain but they are moving the people to subsidized housing with cameras and supervision at this time.

Sunday Express | UK News :: Sin bins for worst families

Yeah most of this stuff is in Britain but I'm pretty sure it's coming here. I think most people will like it because they will have the attitude "if you aren't doing anything wrong then..." until it gets into everyones homes, and I think it will eventually.

[Mike.357]

I think most people will like it because they will have the attitude "if you aren't doing anything wrong then..." until it gets into everyones homes,

This is what the current admin. would love to have happen here. people dependent on the .gov's tit and the .gov encouraging it to happen. yep we will feed you, house you, medicate you and watch you.

Nah, could never happen here. :-\

[TGO David]

see my problem with big brother is that no one can watch them and I see it getting worse rather than better.

My problem with it is that we either have cautious faith in our system and work to fix the things that are real problems, or we become reclusive hermits living completely "off the grid" in the Canadian Rockies and completely shun participation in structured society.

[Guest mikedwood]

My problem with it is that we either have cautious faith in our system and work to fix the things that are real problems, or we become reclusive hermits living completely "off the grid" in the Canadian Rockies and completely shun participation in structured society.

I'm not sure what I think is "wrong" with the system can be fixed. To much money in it.

Also it's gone well beyond they system being more important than the individual. At times that really bothers me but all I can do is suppose since society is so much larger and more varied than it use to be that is the natural downside to growth. Doesn't mean I like it, it's just the way it is.

I suppose it's similar to working for a growing company and there are 10 employees and everyone knows the boss. The place is loose as a goose but everyone works together and makes it work. Has a little fun as well. Then the company sells out to a larger one and adds 100 more employees to the facility and a lot of the perks disapear, rules that apply to everyone like "No drinks or food at work stations", specified break times even though break times use to be when it wasn't busy, now it doesn't matter. (side note: all that is why I work by myself for myself)

Many people will accept and even love the new system. But yes there will naturally be a few that will want to " become reclusive hermits living completely "off the grid" in the Canadian Rockies and completely shun participation in structured society." I don't really have a problem with either as long as a responisble person is doing what they are driven to do.

[strickj]

I'm not sure how a video that encourages residents to report possible terrorist activity correlates with all this tin foil hattery

[leroy]

Mike makes a great point here:

This is what the current admin. would love to have happen here. people dependent on the .gov's tit and the .gov encouraging it to happen. yep we will feed you, house you, medicate you and watch you.

Nah, could never happen here. :-\

Mikedwood makes a great point here:

They started the camera system in Britain to stop terrorism. Now they use it to fine spitters and people who don't pooper scoop, drop litter or whatever.

The fact is that sometimes those things which start with noble goals of the "richeous" (eg -- prevent terrorism, cut down on law breaking, etc etc) become tools for the demigogues among us to punish the citizenry. That is exactly what is going on here. It is exactly why it needs to be opposed. There are plenty of laws that allow for government to look at suspicious things -- too many i think. More tools for "active hunting" or "fishing" for evildoers is not needed.

In my view, it is a clear violation of the Fourth Amendment:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

You simply cannot be secure in your "person" if the government watches you all the time.

There was (and is) another place where this "rat on your brother" and "big brother is watching" idea was tried. It was called Soviet Russia. Worked effectively for 70+ years and was responsible for the extermination of millions. They also tried it in Germany for a time -- they got rid of the jews, the gypsies, and other undesirables too.

Dont be fooled, the character of the "watchers" matters. The best solution is not to allow the "watchers" the tools to do this stuff with to begin with. That's why there is a Fourth Amendment.

Food for thought,

Kind regards,

LEROY

[TGO David]

Leeroy, you need to go back and read what you quoted again. The 4th Amendment guarantees you reasonable sovereignty in your HOME. It does not guarantee you those things in public. Our forefathers knew what they were doing, you're just distorting what they endeavored to provide.

And so what if these "big brother cameras" become used for catching people who litter or commit other petty crimes. A crime is a crime is a crime, right? The same complaint could be lodged against traffic cameras that might catch you running a red-light during the darkest hours of the night when no other souls were around. You still ran a red-light, so you still deserved to get caught.

I see a lot of people bellyaching about what-if scenarios, and some of these scenarios involve doing something wrong in the first place. It seems there's an easy solution here. Don't do anything illegal.

[leroy]

Leeroy, you need to go back and read what you quoted again. The 4th Amendment guarantees you reasonable sovereignty in your HOME. It does not guarantee you those things in public. Our forefathers knew what they were doing, you're just distorting what they endeavored to provide.

.....

I see a lot of people bellyaching about what-if scenarios, and some of these scenarios involve doing something wrong in the first place. It seems there's an easy solution here. Don't do anything illegal.

Daaaaavid:____________

I aint distortin nothin.I aint worried about the red-lite cameras and dogs pooping on the street. I'm worried about the tools used to nab these terrible lawbreakers. The "surveillence" cameras pointed TOWARD the house (and car) whose sole purpose it to allow the "watchers" to watch you. It seems to me that constant watching equals constant search -- search without probable cause. The whole general surviellence camera thing is a rabbit trail that no free people ought to allow their government to go down.

The ole " you aint got nothin to be afraid of from the authorities if you aint doin nothin wrong" line dont work with me or anybody else who has much insight. If you expand that "you aint got nothing to be afraid of .." stuff to it's logical conclusion with your definition; you can put a "watcher" with you constantly; home, person, ect, ect. -- you get the idea. I believe that does, in fact, violate the Fourth Amendment.

The reason that we have a Fourth Amendment is that the British did, in fact, kick in the doors of the colonist houses and did, in fact, randomly search, seize, and intimidate them without benefit of law.

I'll repost the Fourth Amendment for you again:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Notice that it says: "The right of the people to be secure in their person, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable search...."; you get the idea. It is more than your houses.

It seems to me that your definition of "probable cause" is: "we watch you until you do something wrong" -- that violates the whole "freedom and innocent until proven guilty thing" and does away with probable cause.... Any way you slice the pie, the idea of surviellence cameras and activities such as those described in the NYTimes article in Great Britain should be odious to anyone who loves liberty. This whole surviellence camera thing is kinda like the communism thing -- it sounds good in principle; but it stinks in practice because humanity on the whole is bad and not good. Consequently, there is a great opportunity for them to use tools for the "public good" to persecute their enemies -- political and otherwise. The matter of the fact is that "watchers" do, in fact, abuse the tools handed to them to spank real and imagined enemies; and you aint got to look far to find examples.

I aint trying to start a spitting contest with you; but i don't think for a minute that every proposal made by government, law enforcement, and the "protectors of the masses" is a good idea just because they thought of it -- it aint. I also dont think that everyone in government, law enforcement, and the "protectors of the masses" are all using the tools given them to do wrong; but there are enough instances to be noticeable. My sainted old mom used to tell me regularly --- "If you dont start doing things, you dont need to stop doing them." That's the way i see things with the "watchers" and public surviellence cameras.

I'll say it again: Dont be fooled, the character of the "watchers" matters. The best solution is not to allow the "watchers" the tools to do this stuff with to begin with when there is a great potential for abuse and no mechanism for protecting honest folk, other than the good will of the "watchers". There aint any "checks and balances" for the public surviellence idea. That's why in the old days, you had to go before a judge to obtain that authorization in the first place.

More food for thought.

Kind regards,

LEROY

[strickj]

leroy,you do realize that this OP is not about cameras watching you take a **** in your home,right?

It was about a video encouraging people,regular people,non-governmental people being encouraged to report possible terrorist activities.

That does not violate the 4th in any way.

[TGO David]

Again, I'd rather stick to fighting real problems rather than jousting windmills. Way too many hypothetical and imaginary evils in this thread.

Next on Coast To Coast... Cattle Mutilations!

[Guest mikedwood]

Dead on center of the X bulls eye Leroy.

I'm not sure how a video that encourages residents to report possible terrorist activity correlates with all this tin foil hattery

It's not as much the content as the tone and it does look straight from a 1984 type movie. As David said there are some common sence awareness bits in there.

I personally have an issue with the "watch and report your neighbor" bit. I have great neighbors and they seem to think I'm a pretty good one too. I'll certainly watchout for my neighbors, watch them. No.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

That is a creepy Orwellian commercial but i'm with David. The actual content is some common sense advice presented in a creepy way. I'm not sure how well the program will work.

In Oak Ridge I can report an actual crime in progress and it's 50/50 if the authorities can get to it or not and if they do get there if they can do anything about it.

It's the YOUwatch program like they have in Britain that I don't like and they have started in Oak Ridge with the red light cameras.

They started the camera system in Britain to stop terrorism. Now they use it to fine spitters and people who don't pooper scoop, drop litter or whatever.

New "Big Brother" Style Poster In London

"On the wall outside his former residence - flat number 27B - where Orwell lived until his death in 1950, an historical plaque commemorates the anti-authoritarian author. And within 200 yards of the flat, there are 32 CCTV cameras, scanning every move."

George Orwell, Big Brother is watching your house| News | This is London

I read an article a few months ago they are putting cameras in peoples homes in Britain but they are moving the people to subsidized housing with cameras and supervision at this time.

Sunday Express | UK News :: Sin bins for worst families

Yeah most of this stuff is in Britain but I'm pretty sure it's coming here. I think most people will like it because they will have the attitude "if you aren't doing anything wrong then..." until it gets into everyones homes, and I think it will eventually.

ENDGAME!