How they treat a soldier....BIGTIME BS!

[E4 No More]

+1. Semper Fi!

You too, brother.

[Daniel]

You still have not answered this

WHY would the military put this soldier through this crap? it certainly isnt as you stated.

Even this statement

indicates to me that even HE thought he could have handled the situation better...

They put the soldier through this crap because we have had a string of suicides and the Company CMDR wants to cover his ass so if they kid does anything stupid he doesnt lose his Command over it.

[Guest canynracer]

Now THAT makes sense!!!!

[Guest JustMyLuck]

If the story is true, it sounds to me like it was handled bad by all parties involved. However a did noticed a couple of issues that don't add up.

#1 Failure to Identify is a criminal charge in alot of states (Edited to Add)...... If it isn't illegal in NC, it would definately make a LEO put up his guard..

#2 *****Corrected**********

#3 **** Corrected ***********

#4 Carrying auto opening knives is illegal in NC

#5 Soldier did not say that he Had Not been drinking. Only that he didn't say & and they didn't test him.

It all sounds kinda "Iffy" to me.

JML

Edited October 23, 2009 by JustMyLuck

[Fallguy]

The cops found the crime that they thought fit, they were wrong and the court told them that...but the court ASLO told the officer what crime SHOULD have been attached...trespassing...

Are you basically saying that the deputy decided at some point he wanted to arrest the guy and was just going to find something to base an arrest on since on the surface the guy wasn't doing anything wrong? I've rease several post on here that most LEOs wouldn't do anything like that.

do I think the officer over reacted? not sure, it seems that dude could have showed his ID and been done with it...but thats another debate.

It is another debate, but it is being carried out in this thread as well. I agree that had he showed his ID it may have went down differently. He probably would have got a preaching to while his ID was being held and then released as if he had been given some favor.

But the point is, he wasn't legaly obligated to. If people want to do whatever a LEO says no matter what...that is ok. The trouble is, some LEOs forget those people are doing it by choice...so when they come across someone like this, that chooses not to they forget the person is not required to.

[Fallguy]

If the story is true, it sounds to me like it was handled bad by all parties involved. However a did noticed a couple of issues that don't add up.

#1 Failure to Identify is a criminal charge in alot of states

#2 The soldier stated he was 19 yrs old. In NC you must be 21 yrs old to purchase a handgun, so it seems that would rule out legally carrying a handgun Open Carry.

#3 Soldier stated he was going home to Ft. Bragg ... Unless things have changed alot since I was in: You can't OC or CC personal guns on a Federal Military Installation.

As far as that goes .. If the soldier lived in the barracks,even if he were legal age, he would have to check his guns in/out of the Company's Arms Room everytime he wanted it.

It all sounds kinda "Iffy" to me.

JML

#1 Not in TN or NC - Rather there is not "Stop and Identify" law. Of course there are times you must identify yourself.

#2 You can legally OC in several states younger than 21. In VT the legal age to OC is 16. Purcashing from a FFL and possesion are two different things.

From here

#3 In the story, he said he was on the way to a friends to drop of the handgun since he could not have it on base.

Around 2300 I was about to head to my friends house and drop off my pistol before I headed home (Fort Bragg)

Edited October 23, 2009 by Fallguy

[Fallguy]

Q. Why did he not just hand the officer an ID?

A. Because he wanted to show his ass.

Alternate Answer: Because he is a free citizen in a free country and is not subject to the unlawful demands of the state.

[Guest JustMyLuck]

#1 Not in TN or NC - Rather there is not "Stop and Identify" law. Of course there are times you must identify yourself.

#2 You can legally OC in several states younger than 21. In VT the legal age to OC is 16. Purcashing from a FFL and possesion are two different things.

From here

#3 In the story, he said he was on the way to a friends to drop of the handgun since he could not have it on base.

I stand corrected.

JML

BTW I added 2 more.

Edited October 23, 2009 by JustMyLuck

[LagerHead]

If the story is true, it sounds to me like it was handled bad by all parties involved. However a did noticed a couple of issues that don't add up.

#1 Failure to Identify is a criminal charge in alot of states

#2 The soldier stated he was 19 yrs old. In NC you must be 21 yrs old to purchase a handgun, so it seems that would rule out legally carrying a handgun Open Carry.

#3 Soldier stated he was going home to Ft. Bragg ... Unless things have changed alot since I was in: You can't OC or CC personal guns on a Federal Military Installation.

As far as that goes .. If the soldier lived in the barracks,even if he were legal age, he would have to check his guns in/out of the Company's Arms Room everytime he wanted it.

#4 Carrying auto opening knives is illegal in NC

#5 Soldier did not say that he Had Not been drinking.

It all sounds kinda "Iffy" to me.

JML

I don't know about #1. I know if detained you must provide the answer. Otherwise, I believe he was generally within his rights, which is why he repeatedly asked if he was being detained.

On #2, you can OC in NC at 18.

On #3, reread the story. It clearly states, "Around 2300 I was about to head to my friends house and drop off my pistol before I headed home (Fort Bragg)"

On #4, no defense there. But they didn't know that when the confrontation started, nor did they find it when they patted him down, so it's not really relevant to either side of the story.

On #5, he had already stated that he had made up his mind to be quiet, which was why he didn't say anything.

All in all, I think the whole story was made up, but I could be wrong. Either way, this, along with the video of the guy who refused to produce ID for the cop in NC while open carrying, serve as great reminders that you don't give up your rights just because a police officer asks you to do <insert whatever you want here>. I think overall, cops are great people doing a pretty thankless job. But just like electricians, judges, doctors, burger chefs, truck drivers, etc. etc. etc. there are bad apples. Like that fat SOB that stopped me on Broadway a couple years back. I wish I had gotten that piece of crap's name, but that's a story for another time.

[jaysouth]

I hear a lot of chest thumping here. If a LEO responds to a complaint of a person with a gun, there is already a flag raised. If the person carrying the gun in a place where you do not commonly carry guns openly, what ever the state law, refuses to provide ID, you get a second flag.

At that point, a LEO schooled in officer safety would have cuffed the individual, taken them outside, relieved them of the gun, patted them down and stuffed them in the back of a scout car.

How many lives do you have to give to your city or county? Exactly NONE!

Again, I would like to see one of you latrine lawyers pull this stunt in a large city in TN.

No one gives you green stamps for being a soldier. In fact, you are expected to observe a higher standard.

All the kid had to do was give some ID.

[Fallguy]

Just a reminder...

When we start talking about OC in other states, especially where it is legal without a permit, I sometimes feel the need to say that in TN of course you must have a HCP to OC.

So if you are OCing in TN a LEO has every right to demand to see your HCP.

[E4 No More]

Just a reminder...

When we start talking about OC in other states, especially where it is legal without a permit, I sometimes feel the need to say that in TN of course you must have a HCP to OC.

So if you are OCing in TN a LEO has every right to demand to see your HCP.

Yeah, don't that suck? It was one of the things that weirded me out when I moved down here. The other one was to be able to get a civil judgement and garnishment against someone without their being given a summons into court to be able to defend against the action.

[Fallguy]

I hear a lot of chest thumping here. If a LEO responds to a complaint of a person with a gun, there is already a flag raised. If the person carrying the gun in a place where you do not commonly carry guns openly, what ever the state law, refuses to provide ID, you get a second flag.

At that point, a LEO schooled in officer safety would have cuffed the individual, taken them outside, relieved them of the gun, patted them down and stuffed them in the back of a scout car.

How many lives do you have to give to your city or county? Exactly NONE!

Again, I would like to see one of you latrine lawyers pull this stunt in a large city in TN.

No one gives you green stamps for being a soldier. In fact, you are expected to observe a higher standard.

All the kid had to do was give some ID.

The officer didn't seem concerned for his safety, he just thought the person shouldn't be armed and wanted him to provide ID that he was not obligated to unless he was suspected of a crime.

Being suspicious because of raised flags is fine....but is still not enough for an arrest without more proof.

No green stamps for soldiers and there shouldn't be a pass on violating rights/laws for officer safety.

You mean all the kid had to do is become a subject of the state and capitulate rather than exercise his rights.

As far as doing the same in TN as I said above...you have to show your OC upon demand...so can't really work the same here.

[Daniel]

Alternate Answer: Because he is a free citizen in a free country and is not subject to the unlawful demands of the state.

Agreed. I didnt think the question rated a reply.

[Fallguy]

Agreed. I didnt think the question rated a reply.

I almost didn't either, since no one else had

[Guest flyinglowwithheat]

+1000

yeh exactly....posted this because a) we're Americans and should be Proud AND Protective of our freedom...this requires sometimes a little sacrifice I'm headed to NC for a week and realized just how tough it is for us to cross borders and really know the laws AND more importantly the attitude of the gov with respect to our rights....this post made me really think "what would i do??"...yeh easier to just give in BUT its our responsibilty to NOT

[USMCJG]

I hear a lot of chest thumping here. If a LEO responds to a complaint of a person with a gun, there is already a flag raised. If the person carrying the gun in a place where you do not commonly carry guns openly, what ever the state law, refuses to provide ID, you get a second flag.

At that point, a LEO schooled in officer safety would have cuffed the individual, taken them outside, relieved them of the gun, patted them down and stuffed them in the back of a scout car.

How many lives do you have to give to your city or county? Exactly NONE!

Again, I would like to see one of you latrine lawyers pull this stunt in a large city in TN.

No one gives you green stamps for being a soldier. In fact, you are expected to observe a higher standard.

All the kid had to do was give some ID.

As mentioned, in Tennesse you have no right to bear arms. You must purchase that privilege from the state. If you are carrying, either OC or CC, you are also required to produce your HCP to a LEO when asked. This is not the case in North Carolina, and many other states, where open carry is perfectly legal without a permit.

You, and everyone else that wants to, are perfectly free to give up any of your rights any time you please. Some of us would prefer to preserve our rights, our Republic, and our Constitution. Even if it means we will be inconvenienced. To some of us, our freedoms are worth an occasional inconvenience.

"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it." Thomas Paine: The American Crisis, No. 4, 1777.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Alternate Answer: Because he is a free citizen in a free country and is not subject to the unlawful demands of the state.

Free country.. ??.. ain't lookin that way.. it is lookin more like the country of the oppressed.. oppressed by a gov that is truly overreaching..

The sad state is, that a lot of LEO's don't tend to stay up with the current laws of the state.. there are so many.. but there are some that they should stay up with.. along with traffic violations.. and one is carry laws of that state.. as we have seen on this web site.. two different instiances were NC LEO's didn't know that OC was legal in the state of NC with out a permit.. I know that that is not hardly a statistical comparison.. but it does have to make one wonder the state of knowledge amongst law enforcement officers.

Just last year.. I read on the BOP website about a member whom was stopped in Knoxville by a female officer.. to cut is short.. She was not even aware of the "Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act".. to which there are many that are not aware of it.. fewer now than then.. but still..

[Daniel]

Could someone link me to that video of the NC open carry incident? I was at work when it was posted and forgot to look it up later. Now I have no idea where it is.

[Fallguy]

Free country.. ??.. ain't lookin that way.. it is lookin more like the country of the oppressed.. oppressed by a gov that is truly overreaching..

The sad state is, that a lot of LEO's don't tend to stay up with the current laws of the state.. there are so many.. but there are some that they should stay up with.. along with traffic violations.. and one is carry laws of that state.. as we have seen on this web site.. two different instiances were NC LEO's didn't know that OC was legal in the state of NC with out a permit.. I know that that is not hardly a statistical comparison.. but it does have to make one wonder the state of knowledge amongst law enforcement officers.

Just last year.. I read on the BOP website about a member whom was stopped in Knoxville by a female officer.. to cut is short.. She was not even aware of the "Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act".. to which there are many that are not aware of it.. fewer now than then.. but still..

I agree it isn't as free as it once was...and we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Actually in both cases it seems the LEOs may have known (or found out) that OC was legal without a permit in NC. They just didn't like it and didn't like being told No when asking for something. One LEO backed up regrouped and let it be...the other went ahead and made an arrest and got a scolding by the judge.

Hard to believe there are officers that aren't aware of LEOSA.....well.....

[JayC]

Q. Why did he not just hand the officer an ID?

A. Because he wanted to show his ass.

Maybe because he's not required to by law? You know, just because it's easier and you don't have anything to hide doesn't mean you must comply with unlawful demands.

He was under no requirement of law to show his ID and therefore he didn't...

[Guest flyinglowwithheat]

Maybe because he's not required to by law? You know, just because it's easier and you don't have anything to hide doesn't mean you must comply with unlawful demands.

He was under no requirement of law to show his ID and therefore he didn't...

WHEN do you have to show your ID or identify yourself (besides the TN requirement to show your HCP if carrying)

WHEN do you have to let an officer search your car/home/person?

WHAT is the "reasonable" time frame for them to secure a warrant (or white nosed German Sheppard) for said search (I've heard 20 minutes)

WHAT states have the "must tell them/show ID"

WHAT the heck is a "Terry Stop"

THANKS...I've often been told I'm dumber then a box of rocks....any help would be greatly appreciated...It's one thing to stand up for your rights BUT you'd better be 110% correct!!!!!!

[JayC]

You keep missing the facts of the law... First in NC open carry by every adult allowed to own a handgun is LEGAL. Therefore unlike TN, there is no crime being reported when you get a call about a 'man with gun'. This is an important difference. Switch the word handgun for basketball.... Because they had no more reason under NC law to find him carrying a basketball than a handgun. This difference in state law is what is key.

As repeatedly pointed out NC does not have a stop and identify law, and as such unless the person is being detained under a Terry Stop, the officer should know he may not demand ID, according to the OP (and again assuming this version of the story is accurate) as soon as he was informed he was being detained he provided ID.

I'm sorry but the first 2 strikes don't exist under NC law... As much as you may wish differently, NC law is clear on the subject.

Now, you're right that if you did this 10 times you'd likely run into problems 1 or 2 of those times with officers who don't understand the law... but it doesn't change the fact that the officers in this case (again assuming the story posted in correct) acted in an illegal fashion, and overcharged the solider with a violation when he clearly did not meet all elements of the crime.

I hear a lot of chest thumping here. If a LEO responds to a complaint of a person with a gun, there is already a flag raised. If the person carrying the gun in a place where you do not commonly carry guns openly, what ever the state law, refuses to provide ID, you get a second flag.

At that point, a LEO schooled in officer safety would have cuffed the individual, taken them outside, relieved them of the gun, patted them down and stuffed them in the back of a scout car.

How many lives do you have to give to your city or county? Exactly NONE!

Again, I would like to see one of you latrine lawyers pull this stunt in a large city in TN.

No one gives you green stamps for being a soldier. In fact, you are expected to observe a higher standard.

All the kid had to do was give some ID.

[JayC]

WHEN do you have to show your ID or identify yourself (besides the TN requirement to show your HCP if carrying)

WHEN do you have to let an officer search your car/home/person?

WHAT is the "reasonable" time frame for them to secure a warrant (or white nosed German Sheppard) for said search (I've heard 20 minutes)

WHAT states have the "must tell them/show ID"

WHAT the heck is a "Terry Stop"

THANKS...I've often been told I'm dumber then a box of rocks....any help would be greatly appreciated...It's one thing to stand up for your rights BUT you'd better be 110% correct!!!!!!

IANAL but here is my take on the questions, I'd always recommend getting legal advise from a member of the bar.

1. I'm not aware of any 'stop and identify' law on the books in TN (other than HCP holders obviously) - If somebody is aware of said statue please post a cite. Unless there is a 'stop and identify law' you are not required to answer any questions while being detained per a Terry Stop. In states with a stop and identify law, generally speaking you are required to provide your name and address (obviously you should check each states law to make sure they don't require additional information)... But all the information is subject to identification, you're not required to answer any other questions.

2. You don't ever have to LET a police officer search your vehicle, generally speaking if they believe they have RAS or PC to search they won't bother asking you, or they'll hold the vehicle while waiting for a warrant. If they ask 99.9% of the time you may refuse and they won't be allowed to search it.

3. Under TN case law, warrants are a different matter, they probably can hold the car for hours waiting on one... If you're pulled over for speeding, and the officer does not have RAS or PC to hold you on another crime... Terry Stop rules come into play, generally speaking they are not allowed to detain you for extra time to wait for the dog. For example, if it takes 10 minutes on average for an officer to write a speeding ticket, and he holds you on the side of the road for 45 until the k9 unit arrives, likely anything found will be thrown out...

4. Wiki lists 24 states with 'stop and identify' laws, clearly not the best source but it's a good place to start. Stop and Identify statutes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5. Terry v Ohio is a landmark SCOTUS case which basically defines stops and frisks, when suchs stops are legal searchs and when such stops are illegal searchs. Basically a terry stop is whenever you are detained (the officer has not arrested you, but is preventing you from leaving). Basically it says that officers must have reasonable articulable suspension (RAS) that a crime is being committed, was committed or is about the be committed to stop and then search a person. Generally Terry Stops are limited to weapon searches for officer safety. You can read more about the case here: Terry v. Ohio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, I am NOT a lawyer, just a layperson who's job requires him to deal with the legal profession on a regular basis, I'd strongly suggest doing your own research.

[Guest flyinglowwithheat]

IANAL but here is my take on the questions, I'd always recommend getting legal advise from a member of the bar.

1. I'm not aware of any 'stop and identify' law on the books in TN (other than HCP holders obviously) - If somebody is aware of said statue please post a cite. Unless there is a 'stop and identify law' you are not required to answer any questions while being detained per a Terry Stop. In states with a stop and identify law, generally speaking you are required to provide your name and address (obviously you should check each states law to make sure they don't require additional information)... But all the information is subject to identification, you're not required to answer any other questions.

2. You don't ever have to LET a police officer search your vehicle, generally speaking if they believe they have RAS or PC to search they won't bother asking you, or they'll hold the vehicle while waiting for a warrant. If they ask 99.9% of the time you may refuse and they won't be allowed to search it.

3. Under TN case law, warrants are a different matter, they probably can hold the car for hours waiting on one... If you're pulled over for speeding, and the officer does not have RAS or PC to hold you on another crime... Terry Stop rules come into play, generally speaking they are not allowed to detain you for extra time to wait for the dog. For example, if it takes 10 minutes on average for an officer to write a speeding ticket, and he holds you on the side of the road for 45 until the k9 unit arrives, likely anything found will be thrown out...

4. Wiki lists 24 states with 'stop and identify' laws, clearly not the best source but it's a good place to start. Stop and Identify statutes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

5. Terry v Ohio is a landmark SCOTUS case which basically defines stops and frisks, when suchs stops are legal searchs and when such stops are illegal searchs. Basically a terry stop is whenever you are detained (the officer has not arrested you, but is preventing you from leaving). Basically it says that officers must have reasonable articulable suspension (RAS) that a crime is being committed, was committed or is about the be committed to stop and then search a person. Generally Terry Stops are limited to weapon searches for officer safety. You can read more about the case here: Terry v. Ohio - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, I am NOT a lawyer, just a layperson who's job requires him to deal with the legal profession on a regular basis, I'd strongly suggest doing your own research.

Wiki: Stop and Identify statutes (1/2)

Search Wikipedia!

“Stop and identify” statutes are laws in the United States that require persons detained under certain circumstances to identify themselves to a police officer. [1]

In Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 542 U.S. 177 (2004), the Supreme Court of the United States held that such laws did not violate the Fourth Amendment prohibition on unreasonable searches and seizures or the Fifth Amendment privilege against self-incrimination. The Court understood the Nevada statute to mean that a detained person could satisfy the Nevada law by simply stating his name. [2]

Contents:

1. Police-citizen encounters

2. States with “stop and identify” statutes

3. Obligations under “stop and identify” laws

4. See also

5. Notes

6. External links

1. Police-citizen encounters

In the United States, interactions between police and citizens fall into three general categories: consensual (“contact” or “conversation”), detention (often called a Terry stop, after Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)), or arrest. “Stop and identify” laws pertain to detentions.

Different obligations apply to drivers of automobiles, who generally are required by state vehicle codes to present a driver’s license to a police officer upon request.

1. 1. Consensual

At any time, a police officer may approach a person and ask questions. The objective may simply be a friendly conversation; however, the officer also may suspect involvement in a crime, but lack “specific and articulable facts” [3] that would justify a detention or arrest, and hope to obtain these facts from the questioning. The person approached is not required to identify himself or answer any other questions, and may leave at any time. [4] Police are not usually required to tell a person that she is free to decline to answer questions and go about her business; [5] however, a person can usually determine whether the interaction is consensual by asking, “Am I free to go?” [6] [7]

1. 2. Detention

A person is detained when circumstances are such that a reasonable person would believe he is not free to leave. [8]

Police may briefly detain a person if they have reasonable suspicion that the person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a crime. Many state laws explicitly grant this authority; in Terry v. Ohio, the U.S. Supreme Court established it in all jurisdictions, regardless of explicit mention in state or local laws. Police may conduct a limited search for weapons (known as a “frisk”) if they reasonably suspect that the person to be detained may be armed and dangerous.

Police may question a person detained in a Terry stop, but in general, the detainee is not required to answer. [9] However, many states have “stop and identify” laws that explicitly require a person detained under the conditions of Terry to identify himself to a police officer, and in some cases, provide additional information.

Before Hiibel, it was unresolved whether a detainee could be arrested and prosecuted for refusing to identify himself. Authority on this issue was split among the federal circuit courts of appeal, [10] and the U.S. Supreme Court twice expressly refused to address the question. [11] In Hiibel, the Court held, in a 5-4 decision, that a Nevada “stop and identify” law did not violate the United States Constitution. The Court’s opinion implied that a detainee was not required to produce written identification, but could satisfy the requirement merely by stating his name. Some “stop and identify” laws do not require that a detainee identify himself, but allow refusal to do so to be considered along with other factors in determining whether there is probable cause to arrest.

The validity of requirements that a detainee provide information other than his name remains unresolved as of August 2008.

1. 3. Arrest

While detention requires only that police have reasonable suspicion that a person is involved in criminal activity, an arrest requires that the officer have probable cause to believe that the person has committed a crime. Although some states require police to inform the person of the intent to make the arrest and the cause for the arrest, [12] it is not always obvious when a detention becomes an arrest. After making an arrest, police may search a person, his belongings, and his immediate surroundings.

Whether an arrested person must give her name may depend on the jurisdiction in which the arrest occurs. If a person is under arrest and police wish to question him or her, they are required to inform the individual of his or her Fifth-Amendment right to remain silent by giving a Miranda warning. However, Miranda does not apply to biographical data necessary to complete booking. [13] [14] It is not clear whether a “stop and identify” law could compel giving one’s name after being arrested; practically, however, police who wished to compel a person to give his or her name under a “stop and identify” law could simply delay formal arrest until after asking the person for his or her name. Moreover, some states have laws that specifically require an arrested person to give his or her name and other biographical information, [15] and some state courts [16] [17] have held that refusal to give one’s name constitutes obstructing a public officer. As a practical matter, an arrested person who refused to give her name would have little chance of obtaining a prompt release.

2. States with “stop and identify” statutes

There is no federal law requiring that an individual identify himself during a Terry stop. Hiibel merely established that states and localities have the power to require people to identify themselves under those conditions.

As of 2009, the following 24 states have “stop and identify” laws:

Alabama Ala. Code §15-5-30 Arizona Ari. Rev. Stat. Tit. 13, Ch. 24-12 (enacted 2005) Arkansas Ark. Code Ann. §5-71-213(a)(1) Colorado Colo. Rev. Stat. §16-3-103(1) Delaware Del. Code Ann., Tit. 11, §§1902, 1321(6) Florida Fla. Stat. §856.021(2) Georgia Ga. Code Ann. §16-11-36( (loitering statute) Illinois Ill. Comp. Stat., ch. 725, §5/107-14 Indiana Indiana Code §34-28-5-3.5 Kansas Kan. Stat. Ann. §22-2402(1) Louisiana La. Code Crim. Proc. Ann., Art. 215.1(A) Missouri Mo. Rev. Stat. §84.710(2) Montana Mont. Code Ann. §46-5-401 Nebraska Neb. Rev. Stat. §29-829 Nevada Nev. Rev. Stat. §171.123 New Hampshire N. H. Rev. Stat. Ann. §594:2 New Mexico N. M. Stat. Ann. §30-22-3 New York N. Y. Crim. Proc. Law (CPL) §140.50 (1) North Dakota N.D. Cent. Code §29-29-21 (PDF) Ohio Ohio Rev. Code §2921.29 (enacted 2006) Rhode Island R. I. Gen. Laws §12-7-1 Utah Utah Code Ann. §77-7-15 Vermont Vt. Stat. Ann., Tit. 24, §1983 Wisconsin Wis. Stat. §968.24

Interesting stuff indeed....knowing when your on the GOOD side is probably paramount when challenging a situation...I have a great amount of respect for them but OUR rights are quite a bit more important (big picture wise) then there ego, which will undoubtedly be hurt. This stuff really does come into play because when your carrying because it opens that "hmmmmmm" thinking in their head and you'd better be ready. Being pleasant, non-defensive but direct is probably a good idea.

Wapedia - Wiki: Stop and Identify statutes

This is interesting....the 3 different types of interactions. VERY important to ask if your being detained and under what grounds.

1. Police-citizen encounters

In the United States, interactions between police and citizens fall into three general categories: consensual (“contact” or “conversation”), detention (often called a Terry stop, after Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)), or arrest. “Stop and identify” laws pertain to detentions.

Edited October 24, 2009 by flyinglowwithheat