How they treat a soldier....BIGTIME BS!

[Guest flyinglowwithheat]

UNBELIEVABLE!

NC is a TRADITIONAL OC state!!! NO PERMIT required.

When you purchase a gun you should swing by Radio Shack and pick up a Recorder!!!!

There needs to be a pool of cash put together to ENSURE that Departments like this FEEL the pain for infringing on people RIGHTS.

Arrested for OC - North Carolina - Stories From The States - OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum

Time: 1130pm, Friday the 14th of November.

Place: Waffle House on McPherson Church Road, Fayetteville NC

Deputies involved: Deputy B. Johnson and Heard (don't know the first initial)

Gun: S&W M&P .45 ACP with Hornady TAP, 10 in the mag, one in the pipe in a Serpa Blackhawk retention level 2 holster. I was wearing a Plain White Tees band shirt with cargo jeans.

I am a soldier stationed at Fort Bragg, just FYI.

Around 2300 I was about to head to my friends house and drop off my pistol before I headed home (Fort Bragg) so I decided to stop in at Waffle House to grab a bite. I had been to waffle house several times while open carrying and had only been questioned once about it. They didn't serve alcohol and I love to eat breakfast food so it was an easy choice.

I walk in the store right behind the only other customer (he was not involved at all) and had a seat with the weapon facing the outside of the booth (my right side). As I am taking a seat the manager, who was sitting down smoking a ciggarrete said:

Manager: "Are you a cop?"

Me: "No, sir." (I didn't feel that being a soldier was relevant, so I occluded that)

MAN: "DO you have a permit for it?"

Me: "No sir, in North Carolina you don't have to have a permit to open carry. To carry concealed you do."

He seemed to drop the subject so I ordered my food and started using my cell phone. I was about halfway into my meal when Deputies B. Johnson, and Heard entered the restaurant. They approached me. Please note that I did not have a recorder on me, but I wish I had just used my cell phone to record the conversation or something. grrr. So this is as well as I can remember it.

Me: "Hows it going Deputy."

Johnson: "Its going alright. Mind telling me why you have a gun?"

Me: "Don't really have a reason for you deputy."

J: "Do you have a concealed weapons permit?"

Me: "No officer, you don't need one to open carry in North Carolina."

J: "alright, how about you give me some ID."

Me: "Deputy, what do I need to give you ID for? Have I commited a crime?"

J: "How bout you just give me some ID."

Me: "Deputy, am I being Detained?"

J: "Detained? No you're not being detained, just show me your ID."

Me: I think I'd rather not, deputy.

J: "Alrite, I'll be back."

He exits the store in a huff, and I hear him talking on his radio for backup...oh, this should be interesting.

I see the manager and ask him if he wouldn't mind answering a question for me. He walks over and I explain to him that what I'm doing is legal, and how its legal in NC. I then ask him in a very clear way.

Me: Sir, do you want me to leave?

He mumbled about well, I mean, uhh. No clear answer.

Me: Sir, if you want me to leave then I'll leave.

He didn't give me a clear answer.

The deputy re-enters the restaurant.

Johnson: "Backups on its way. Are you going to show me some ID?'

Me: Deputy, I'm not required to.

J: Oh you think you know the law, huh? You think you're a lawyer? You cannot carry a weapon in an establishment like that. Not unless you're LE or have a permit.

Me: I'm sorry, officer but thats wrong.

I then ask the manager again, with the deputy present

"sir, do you want me to leave?"

The deputy butts in and basically tells me to shut up. saying "we're not going to keep going back and forth"

Deputy to the manager: "Do you want him to go? Do you want him out of here?"

Manager: "well, I mean he hasn't caused no problems, he hasn't been disturbing or anything" (keep in mind theres ONE other customer in the place).

Dep: You sure?

Man: well, I mean, I'd just like to ask him if he could go put it in his car or something, thats all. (this is the first hes said about it)

The deputy goes on about something or other.

I then interject and ask the manager:

"Sir, these deputies obviously want to talk some more, so would you mind terribly if I paid for my meal and talked with these deputies outside?"

Manager: "no thats, no problem"

I pay for my meal and walk outside.

Backup arrives and deputy johnson is still doing most of the talking.

"How bout you show us some ID.

I ask again "Am I being detained deputy?"

J: "Yes, you're being detained, now show us some ID."

Me, as I reach for my wallet, slowly, : for suspicion of commiting what crime, sir?

J: *scoff* "suspicion? *i forget what else, he then takes my ID and asks for my drivers license, I had handed him my Military ID because I left my DL in my car. He then calls to see if he can get the MP's out there, they never showed.

They start saying something more about I can't carry and all that. The other deputy, Heard, then says

"Enough of this, put your hands on the hood of the car."

I do as I'm told, thinking their going to take my gun and keep talking. The officer reaches over and takes my weapon out of the holster, and takes it around to the cruiser to unload it.

I then am patted down (they missed my auto-opening knife clipped to my pants pocket, and didn't pull anything out of my pockets), then they tell me to put my hands on my head and they cuff me.

I wasn't about to say anything else, because I was obviously under arrest. I shut my mouth.

The Fayetteville PD arrives and as the other deputies are calling in this or that and just holding me there the FPD officer (j. Figeuroa) says:

"you've been drinking?"

I say nothing.

"Oh, playing the silent game, huh? yeah, you've had a few beers."

I remain silent except to ask for my wallet, which was on the hood of their car. they put it back in my pocket.

I am placed in the car, THEN they catch my knife and remove it, they then ask "you have anything else in your pockets?"

"i have a cell phone and keys, deputy"

They didn't even bother to search me again.

As Johnson gets back in the car I ask "deputy, what am I being charged with?"

he was looking through his code book and finds something I had to laugh at :

J: "Going armed to the terror of the public! thats what! think you can just walk in a restaurant with a gun on your hip. I laughed on the inside the whole way to the station.

I was then booked in and my unit was called. At no time was i informed of my rights, in case that matters. They write up the paperwork and look up the code for GATTTOTP.

They bring it before the magistrate (thank god, thought i was going to spend the night in lockup) and tell him the story...the magistrate basically throws it out.

Mag:"It was in a holster?"

Dep: yes sir

mag: he wasnt touching it or waving it around?

dep: no sir.

mag: thats totally legal.

dep: *stunned* uhhh, ok...ummm

mag: is that it?

dep: well he was being really irate and argumenative, and he didn't want to leave the waffle house.

mag; then charge him with trespassing, not GATTTOTP.

dep: yes sir.

I'm still laughing on the inside. So now I have a second degree trespassing charge and have a court date for next month. yay me. at no time did I raise my voice to the deputies and they never breathylized me (im 19, btw).

when my SGT (he was not happy) came to pick me up at 0230 they gave him the gun and released me on $200 unsecured bond (i dont pay anything if i show up, basically)

I'm going to work on getting it thrown out before the court date though. This should be fun. I'm also going to write a letter to the sheriff in regards to his untrained and rude deputies.

Oh, and then I had to pull 24 hour duty at 0900 on Saturday...this weekend was MESSED up.

Any questions?

EDIT: This was resolved. I ended up moving to Fort Lewis in December, the case was dropped as the deputy didn't show up and they had no case, along with no witness.

I was going to pursue this, but I ended up leaving, and in Washington you cannot OC until you're 21, period, so I'll just wait until then.

Grand total for this incident: A lot of embarrassment, a lot of talkings to by my command, a forced mental health eval for "my feeling of need to be armed at all times" and "my obsession with weapons", and $200 lawyer fee.

Pick your battles. Thats all I have to say.

Last edited on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 01:58 pm by Paratrooper82

[Guest jackdm3]

It sucks you gotta be bothered so much so the LEOs can learn something new.

[Fallguy]

A good example of playing it cool, knowing your rights and being willing to follow through.

[TNTitan]

thats quite a story.

[jaysouth]

You made a couple of serious mistakes that amount to "contempt of cop" and guarantee you a free ride to jail.

Refusal to provide ID and "am I being detained" will raise the hackles of any cop and make it difficult to get any sympathy.

You could have easily talked your way out of the situation by being a little more co-operative.

[USMCJG]

Assuming everything in the story is accurate, there is no way I would just let that drop. I'd want badges.

[USMCJG]

You made a couple of serious mistakes that amount to "contempt of cop" and guarantee you a free ride to jail.

Refusal to provide ID and "am I being detained" will raise the hackles of any cop and make it difficult to get any sympathy.

You could have easily talked your way out of the situation by being a little more co-operative.

Contempt of cop is not a crime. However, false imprisonment most definitely is. I think the young soldier did everything exactly as he should have. You are not required to give up any of your rights just because an officer tells you to.

[Fallguy]

You made a couple of serious mistakes that amount to "contempt of cop" and guarantee you a free ride to jail.

Refusal to provide ID and "am I being detained" will raise the hackles of any cop and make it difficult to get any sympathy.

You could have easily talked your way out of the situation by being a little more co-operative.

The OP in this thread is not the solider involved, if you'll notice he just reposted this from another forum. So if by using "you", you meant to address the actual person involved, that can not be done on this forum.

As has been said "contempt of cop" is not a actual crime. Although I admit...it has caused people to go to jail.

In this case the person didn't need sympathy from the deputy, he just needed the deputy to follow the law.

Of course LEOs can ask anyone for ID or anything else for that matter...they can ask you for a drink of your soda, but if you don't want to do it and you are not legally obligated to, then there shouldn't be any adverse consequences. If you want to do what ever they say...then that is fine and is your choice as well.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Fallguy

[Kelemvor]

I would expect some kind of recompense for this pitiful excuse for law enforcement.

[Guest flyinglowwithheat]

Assuming everything in the story is accurate, there is no way I would just let that drop. I'd want badges.

Ya he was due for a duty station change which makes it nearly impossible to pursue something like that because of the timeframe. Soldiers somehow need (DESERVE) more protection because they are often exploited by the "locals' who know that its just a matter of waiting them out. BTW thanks Mr. Moderator...it was just a story I ran across and wanted to share. Its not me. I'm headed to NC for a week and wanted to see what the laws are there. Apparently local govs can ADD to the regs such as no open carry,etc>>sounds fishy! Hats off to this young man for keeping his cool and doing the right thing....He DESERVES thos badges! Its a great example of being a GOOD guy and staying a GOOD guy..the cops in this case were flat out wrong! Edited October 23, 2009 by flyinglowwithheat

[Guest flyinglowwithheat]

You made a couple of serious mistakes that amount to "contempt of cop" and guarantee you a free ride to jail.

Refusal to provide ID and "am I being detained" will raise the hackles of any cop and make it difficult to get any sympathy.

You could have easily talked your way out of the situation by being a little more co-operative.

co-operative....I think this dude did his absolute best of being co-operative without giving up his right to privacy WHEN your doing NOTHING wrong.

What exactly is "contempt of cop"....looked everywhere in the TN CODE and couldn't find anything. Sounds like a load of bologna to me. Being a good citizen is, along with following the laws, keeping in check those people who have the authority to enforce them.

[Semiauto]

I am 48 and have known many law enforcement officers. I would say about half of them have an attitude. They are the ones that speed going to work in the police cruisers, don't tell on their fellow officers if the fellow officers break the law, and generally think they are a cut above the honest citizen. The other half are generally compassionate and considerate of the honest citizen, have good moral judgement, and treat others as they would like to be treated.

Guess which half are less favorable to 2nd Amendment issues?

[E4 No More]

You made a couple of serious mistakes that amount to "contempt of cop" and guarantee you a free ride to jail.

Refusal to provide ID and "am I being detained" will raise the hackles of any cop and make it difficult to get any sympathy.

You could have easily talked your way out of the situation by being a little more co-operative.

As a former policeman, this is one of the more idiotic statements I read on this forum. If this story has been relayed with complete accuracy and in full, the deputies were out of line in more ways than one. The law doesn't allow you to make-up charges because they wanted to teach the young'n a lesson for questioning them. It is not the soldier's fault that they didn't know what they were doing.

As far as there being nothing he can do from another state, that's BS. Arresting someone without probable cause is a violation of his rights, and he should file a complaint with the FBI to investigate. The deputies will not cooperate with the FBI, but the manager will, and he'll tell the FBI that he never signed a complaint for trespass against the soldier. No complaint for trespass = false arrest.

Edited October 23, 2009 by SWJewellTN

[Guest Old goat]

Can't help but wonder what would have happened if he had simply handed the officer his ID.

[Daniel]

Can't help but wonder what would have happened if he had simply handed the officer his ID.

He would have encouraged them to bully someone else.

[E4 No More]

Can't help but wonder what would have happened if he had simply handed the officer his ID.

Can't help but wonder what would have happened if the deputies knew the law.

Oh, wait! Nothing.

[Guest SUNTZU]

He would have encouraged them to bully someone else.

[Guest Old goat]

Yeah, both of you probably right.

Then again, just seems like every time I hear about a " I don't have to do crap " attitude, that's just what they get, crap.

Also, the other side of the story is probably much different, and the truth somewhere in the middle.

[extremescene]

Even though we may not be required to by law, I think not showing his ID was an invitation for the officers to become angry at the least. It may not be right, and they definitely took their power way too far, but I wouldn't have had any issue showing them my ID. I show it to sometimes 5-10 store clerks per day when using my credit card and every time I go see music... no reason not to show it to the officer and potentially avoid a complicated situation.

[jaysouth]

When you are in a public place and confronted by a LEO, you have no right to or expectation of "privacy".

Refusing to provide ID raises the suspicion of any cop. In some states it is required,in some it is not, but refusal makes a reasonable person question the reason for refusal. Who is this this guy and what is he trying to hide? What is he wanted for?

A little common sense and co-operation would have defused this situation.

If you think the North Carolina Deputies over reacted, I dare you to pull the same stunt in Nashville/Memphis/knoxville. I guarantee you will get a gun pointed at you and get to lie on the ground or get tasered and get to lie on the ground.

[E4 No More]

When you are in a public place and confronted by a LEO, you have no right to or expectation of "privacy".

Refusing to provide ID raises the suspicion of any cop. In some states it is required,in some it is not, but refusal makes a reasonable person question the reason for refusal. Who is this this guy and what is he trying to hide? What is he wanted for?

A little common sense and co-operation would have defused this situation.

If you think the North Carolina Deputies over reacted, I dare you to pull the same stunt in Nashville/Memphis/knoxville. I guarantee you will get a gun pointed at you and get to lie on the ground or get tasered and get to lie on the ground.

And I'd guarantee them a lawsuit. You cannot require someone to identify themselves without reasonable suspicion of committing a crime, period. We don't live in a police state, and I don't think anyone here want to live in one. And the Supreme Court decided long ago that contempt of cop is not illegal.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't have shown them my ID: however, I am saying that the lad was within his rights, and the magistrate knew it. What the deputies should have done , (and keep in mind that where I'm from deputies do nothing but warrant service and prisoner transport), is asked the manager if he wanted the lad to leave, and if the manager answered in the affirmative then they could make sure that the lad did so immediately. If he didn't leave immediately then they could have arrested him.

[JayC]

States may have identify laws, that only requires you to give you name and address to the officer per current SCOTUS case law on the subject. It does not require somebody walking to provide an ID, only their name and address. As this person was on foot and not driving at the time of the encounter having a drivers license does not fall into the equation. If the deputy had waited until he got in his car and pulled him over on the side of the road he would have had a right to request ID.

For the record, the solider in question (if we take on face value this account is correct) handled this almost perfectly... Because while states are allowed to request ID if there is a law on the books, they must be in the process of performing a Terry Stop to do so... If a subject is not 'detained' then there is not 'Terry Stop' and no requirement to provide ID to the officer in question. The solider in this case repeatedly inquired as to where he was being detained and once told he was, immediately provided ID to the responding deputy.

As for your 'reasonable suspicion' claim, that is not true under current case law on the subject. A person may have a reasonable reason to not want to give out their name and address on the side of the street, and therefore refusing to do so would not meet the burden of RAS under current law.

While the exact same might happen here, more likely since we have no lawful open carry without a permit, and therefore they can demand to see your permit if you're carrying a handgun. It doesn't mean that an officer can request to see your ID for no reason and then use that refusal as RAS for a Terry Stop. (Again with the exception in TN to carrying a firearm).

If the posted account is correct it appears as if the deputy was in the wrong, and it appears as if he'll get away with it.

When you are in a public place and confronted by a LEO, you have no right to or expectation of "privacy".

Refusing to provide ID raises the suspicion of any cop. In some states it is required,in some it is not, but refusal makes a reasonable person question the reason for refusal. Who is this this guy and what is he trying to hide? What is he wanted for?

A little common sense and co-operation would have defused this situation.

If you think the North Carolina Deputies over reacted, I dare you to pull the same stunt in Nashville/Memphis/knoxville. I guarantee you will get a gun pointed at you and get to lie on the ground or get tasered and get to lie on the ground.

[Guest canynracer]

UNBELIEVABLE!

NC is a TRADITIONAL OC state!!! NO PERMIT required.

When you purchase a gun you should swing by Radio Shack and pick up a Recorder!!!!

There needs to be a pool of cash put together to ENSURE that Departments like this FEEL the pain for infringing on people RIGHTS.

Arrested for OC - North Carolina - Stories From The States - OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum

Time: 1130pm, Friday the 14th of November.

Place: Waffle House on McPherson Church Road, Fayetteville NC

Deputies involved: Deputy B. Johnson and Heard (don't know the first initial)

Gun: S&W M&P .45 ACP with Hornady TAP, 10 in the mag, one in the pipe in a Serpa Blackhawk retention level 2 holster. I was wearing a Plain White Tees band shirt with cargo jeans.

I am a soldier stationed at Fort Bragg, just FYI.

Around 2300 I was about to head to my friends house and drop off my pistol before I headed home (Fort Bragg) so I decided to stop in at Waffle House to grab a bite. I had been to waffle house several times while open carrying and had only been questioned once about it. They didn't serve alcohol and I love to eat breakfast food so it was an easy choice.

I walk in the store right behind the only other customer (he was not involved at all) and had a seat with the weapon facing the outside of the booth (my right side). As I am taking a seat the manager, who was sitting down smoking a ciggarrete said:

Manager: "Are you a cop?"

Me: "No, sir." (I didn't feel that being a soldier was relevant, so I occluded that)

MAN: "DO you have a permit for it?"

Me: "No sir, in North Carolina you don't have to have a permit to open carry. To carry concealed you do."

He seemed to drop the subject so I ordered my food and started using my cell phone. I was about halfway into my meal when Deputies B. Johnson, and Heard entered the restaurant. They approached me. Please note that I did not have a recorder on me, but I wish I had just used my cell phone to record the conversation or something. grrr. So this is as well as I can remember it.

Me: "Hows it going Deputy."

Johnson: "Its going alright. Mind telling me why you have a gun?"

Me: "Don't really have a reason for you deputy."

J: "Do you have a concealed weapons permit?"

Me: "No officer, you don't need one to open carry in North Carolina."

J: "alright, how about you give me some ID."

Me: "Deputy, what do I need to give you ID for? Have I commited a crime?"

J: "How bout you just give me some ID."

Me: "Deputy, am I being Detained?"

J: "Detained? No you're not being detained, just show me your ID."

Me: I think I'd rather not, deputy.

J: "Alrite, I'll be back."

He exits the store in a huff, and I hear him talking on his radio for backup...oh, this should be interesting.

I see the manager and ask him if he wouldn't mind answering a question for me. He walks over and I explain to him that what I'm doing is legal, and how its legal in NC. I then ask him in a very clear way.

Me: Sir, do you want me to leave?

He mumbled about well, I mean, uhh. No clear answer.

Me: Sir, if you want me to leave then I'll leave.

He didn't give me a clear answer.

The deputy re-enters the restaurant.

Johnson: "Backups on its way. Are you going to show me some ID?'

Me: Deputy, I'm not required to.

J: Oh you think you know the law, huh? You think you're a lawyer? You cannot carry a weapon in an establishment like that. Not unless you're LE or have a permit.

Me: I'm sorry, officer but thats wrong.

I then ask the manager again, with the deputy present

"sir, do you want me to leave?"

The deputy butts in and basically tells me to shut up. saying "we're not going to keep going back and forth"

Deputy to the manager: "Do you want him to go? Do you want him out of here?"

Manager: "well, I mean he hasn't caused no problems, he hasn't been disturbing or anything" (keep in mind theres ONE other customer in the place).

Dep: You sure?

Man: well, I mean, I'd just like to ask him if he could go put it in his car or something, thats all. (this is the first hes said about it)

The deputy goes on about something or other.

I then interject and ask the manager:

"Sir, these deputies obviously want to talk some more, so would you mind terribly if I paid for my meal and talked with these deputies outside?"

Manager: "no thats, no problem"

I pay for my meal and walk outside.

Backup arrives and deputy johnson is still doing most of the talking.

"How bout you show us some ID.

I ask again "Am I being detained deputy?"

J: "Yes, you're being detained, now show us some ID."

Me, as I reach for my wallet, slowly, : for suspicion of commiting what crime, sir?

J: *scoff* "suspicion? *i forget what else, he then takes my ID and asks for my drivers license, I had handed him my Military ID because I left my DL in my car. He then calls to see if he can get the MP's out there, they never showed.

They start saying something more about I can't carry and all that. The other deputy, Heard, then says

"Enough of this, put your hands on the hood of the car."

I do as I'm told, thinking their going to take my gun and keep talking. The officer reaches over and takes my weapon out of the holster, and takes it around to the cruiser to unload it.

I then am patted down (they missed my auto-opening knife clipped to my pants pocket, and didn't pull anything out of my pockets), then they tell me to put my hands on my head and they cuff me.

I wasn't about to say anything else, because I was obviously under arrest. I shut my mouth.

The Fayetteville PD arrives and as the other deputies are calling in this or that and just holding me there the FPD officer (j. Figeuroa) says:

"you've been drinking?"

I say nothing.

"Oh, playing the silent game, huh? yeah, you've had a few beers."

I remain silent except to ask for my wallet, which was on the hood of their car. they put it back in my pocket.

I am placed in the car, THEN they catch my knife and remove it, they then ask "you have anything else in your pockets?"

"i have a cell phone and keys, deputy"

They didn't even bother to search me again.

As Johnson gets back in the car I ask "deputy, what am I being charged with?"

he was looking through his code book and finds something I had to laugh at :

J: "Going armed to the terror of the public! thats what! think you can just walk in a restaurant with a gun on your hip. I laughed on the inside the whole way to the station.

I was then booked in and my unit was called. At no time was i informed of my rights, in case that matters. They write up the paperwork and look up the code for GATTTOTP.

They bring it before the magistrate (thank god, thought i was going to spend the night in lockup) and tell him the story...the magistrate basically throws it out.

Mag:"It was in a holster?"

Dep: yes sir

mag: he wasnt touching it or waving it around?

dep: no sir.

mag: thats totally legal.

dep: *stunned* uhhh, ok...ummm

mag: is that it?

dep: well he was being really irate and argumenative, and he didn't want to leave the waffle house.

mag; then charge him with trespassing, not GATTTOTP.

dep: yes sir.

I'm still laughing on the inside. So now I have a second degree trespassing charge and have a court date for next month. yay me. at no time did I raise my voice to the deputies and they never breathylized me (im 19, btw).

when my SGT (he was not happy) came to pick me up at 0230 they gave him the gun and released me on $200 unsecured bond (i dont pay anything if i show up, basically)

I'm going to work on getting it thrown out before the court date though. This should be fun. I'm also going to write a letter to the sheriff in regards to his untrained and rude deputies.

Oh, and then I had to pull 24 hour duty at 0900 on Saturday...this weekend was MESSED up.

Any questions?

EDIT: This was resolved. I ended up moving to Fort Lewis in December, the case was dropped as the deputy didn't show up and they had no case, along with no witness.

I was going to pursue this, but I ended up leaving, and in Washington you cannot OC until you're 21, period, so I'll just wait until then.

Grand total for this incident: A lot of embarrassment, a lot of talkings to by my command, a forced mental health eval for "my feeling of need to be armed at all times" and "my obsession with weapons", and $200 lawyer fee.

Pick your battles. Thats all I have to say.

Last edited on Mon Feb 9th, 2009 01:58 pm by Paratrooper82

Perfect end to the story, and GREAT advice.

[USMCJG]

Perfect end to the story, and GREAT advice.

I think the perfect end to this story would be for the soldier to have two badges and a nice cash settlement.

[Guest jackdm3]

I think the perfect end to this story would be for the soldier to have two badges and a nice cash settlement.

That would be the only way to change things. I was going to say he'd need at least enough for moving expenses, but with military at your back, why worry? The protection of a fortress/military base should be unequalled.