to see, or not to see.....

[Guest db99wj]

Here is a different view:

What if you are a cop, off duty, going out to dinner at the local Applebee's, TGIFridays, <insert name> bar and grill, with your wife and kids and a guy that you happened to arrest a week ago for <insert charge> and is not a real happy camper about it. As we all know, criminals usually don't follow the laws of the land and he pulls a weapon. That cop has just found himself and his family in a bad situation. This is not a random act of violence, or being in or near a place when something happenes, this cop has become a target.

Because of their job, is it reasonable to believe that they are more likely to be a target of violence due to retaliation opposed to being a victim of a random crime?

...and as dralarms said, the law needs to be changed so that we can all protect our families when we go out to dinner or to a park for that matter.

[saintsfanbrian]

What if I had someone arrested last week for vandalizing my stuff? What if they weren't too happy about it and were at the local bar and grill when I walk in. Them being a criminal they are carrying a gun. They decide to use it on me. Me and my family are screwed.

Again I say, there is a reason Lady Justice is blindfolded. Laws are supposed to apply to ALL PEOPLE EQUALLY!!!

I am sorry if the profession that you chose puts you in a higher risk category, that is not my fault, nor should I be penalized because I didn't choose that same profession.

Sorry, this excuse doesn't hold water in my book. I am not against the police or law enforcement community. Far from it, I just want them to be BOUND by the SAME LAWS that you and I are.

Oh, and the law needs to be changed.

[Guest db99wj]

The above is not my argument, because I don't know the legal answers to it, I am just posing the question and the scenario.

Agreed, It is why the law needs to be changed, so that we can protect our family, period.

[Guest 270win]

Have any of you ever heard of someone with a Handgun Carry Permit, who is not drinking, being arrested for carrying a handgun inside an establishment that sells beer/alcohol for onsite consumption? I really doubt any of you will find someone who is licensed that is arrested AND convicted for this silly law, unless the licensee is making a fool of himself by being drunk in the restaurant. If you conceal your handgun properly, you won't have any problems at Applebee's or Outback. When was the last time you saw a metal detector or people patting down folks walking inside a restaurant?

Following the law is a good thing, but i would not call the prosecuting attorney and gripe about LEO's carrying inside restaurants that sell alcohol and beer. I'd be willing to bet the same officers who are carrying inside those places are not going to mess with you. I once read an article in the Commercial Appeal about a man who mistakingly took off his jacket in a restaurant in Shelby County and exposed his handgun. The police were called, of course, but the police did the right thing and asked the man to just take his handgun to his car (much better alternative than being charged with a crime).

If you feel you need to carry a handgun in a restaurant, then carry it and keep quiet. If you want to leave it out in your car, that is fine, but don't gripe because a LEO carries when it is 'technically' illegal....when you will not be hassled by the LEO sitting next to you (unless you carry openly). You can't be charged for a weapons violation, if you have to use it in self defense. Check out TCA 39-17-1322 and also check out the new self defense law.

[DaveTN]

I don't see how that can be misunderstood

So, the issue is not that they can legally carry anywhere they want (because, they can't)... we are pissed that they get away with breaking the law!

When law-enforcement can blatantly disregard laws which were specifically written to regulate them, it's a sign of gross competence and management issues within the LE community.

You are correct if that is the case. Besides the written law that we have internet access to; there is case law. Are there case laws on cops carrying 24/7? Let’s ask one of the forum full time cops…. Oh wait… we don’t have any.

I’m surprised at some of the people here that want to limit anyone carrying anywhere. Sure I’m obviously pro law enforcement and I got to carry anywhere I wanted any time I wanted within the confines of my state. On-duty, off duty, bars, government buildings; it didn’t matter. The only place I can remember not being able to carry a gun was if I wanted to enter a jail.

Don’t be pissed off at the cops they didn’t make the laws.

[DaveTN]

Have any of you ever heard of someone with a Handgun Carry Permit, who is not drinking, being arrested for carrying a handgun inside an establishment that sells beer/alcohol for onsite consumption?

Wasn’t some kind of Nashville politician arrested for walking into a place that he didn’t know served liquor? I don’t remember the exact details but I remember it being all over the news.

[The Rabbi]

You are correct if that is the case. Besides the written law that we have internet access to; there is case law. Are there case laws on cops carrying 24/7? Let’s ask one of the forum full time cops…. Oh wait… we don’t have any.

I’m surprised at some of the people here that want to limit anyone carrying anywhere. Sure I’m obviously pro law enforcement and I got to carry anywhere I wanted any time I wanted within the confines of my state. On-duty, off duty, bars, government buildings; it didn’t matter. The only place I can remember not being able to carry a gun was if I wanted to enter a jail.

Don’t be pissed off at the cops they didn’t make the laws.

At the talk last night by John Harris (that no one from TGO attended btw) he said specifically that cops were barred from carrying in places like Applebees except when engaged in official duty. Eating a meal doesnt count. He also said cops do it all the time and never get punished for it.

[DaveTN]

Here is the answer according to the Tennessee Sheriff’s Handbook 2006.

Authority to Authorize Deputies to Carry Handguns.

Pursuant to T.C.A. § 39-17-1315(a)(1), the sheriff has the authority to authorize the carry of handguns by bonded and sworn deputy sheriffs who have successfully completed and continue to successfully complete on an annual basis a firearm training program of at least eight hours duration. The sheriff’s authorization must be made by a written directive, a copy of which must be retained by the sheriff’s office. Pursuant to the sheriff’s written directive,

POST-certified deputy sheriffs may carry their handgun at all times, regardless of the deputy’s regular duty hours or assignments. Nothing in T.C.A. § 39-17-1315(a)(1) prohibits the sheriff from placing restrictions on when or where a deputy may carry his or her service handgun.

POST-certified deputy sheriffs may carry firearms at all times and in all places within Tennessee, on-duty or off-duty, regardless of the deputy’s regular duty hours or assignments, except as provided by T.C.A. § 39-17-1350© (see below), federal law,lawful orders of court or the written directive of the sheriff. T.C.A. § 39-17-1350(a) and (d).

The authority conferred by T.C.A. § 39-17-1350 does not extend to a deputy sheriff:

(1) Who carries a firearm onto school grounds or inside a school building during regular school hours unless such officer immediately informs the principal that such officer will be present on school grounds or inside the school building and in possession of a firearm. If the principal is unavailable, the notice may be given to an appropriate administrative staff person in the

principal's office;

(2) Who is consuming beer or an alcoholic beverage or who is under the influence of beer, an alcoholic beverage, or a controlled substance;

(3) Who is not engaged in the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer while within the confines of an establishment where beer or alcoholic beverages are sold for consumption on-the-premises; or

(4) Who is not engaged in the actual discharge of official duties as a law enforcement officer while attending a judicial proceeding.

[DBTN]

Hi Rabbi. I am the Metro officer that stops by sometimes and let you look at the Sig 552 on one visit. Mr. Harris is correct. Officers cannot carry, under TN law, in establishments that sell alcohol unless they are on duty. The law is clear in that regard. It is not ambiguous. We can, however, carry in such establishments under federal law (Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act, commonly referred to as H.R. 218).

[Guest ETS_Inc]

Ok, if Federal law allows it, and State law prohibits it, wouldn't the State law be the one that must be abided by? To use a firearms example, NFA 34 allows possession of silencers, machineguns, and other Title II weapons. However, many States ban their ownership, regardless of what Federal law allows. Those State laws must be obeyed, so I'm assuming that should be the case with LEO carry.

Personally, I think cops should be allowed to carry 24/7, on duty or off. My Dad is a Deputy Sheriff, and has been for 20 years. He's had numerous times when he's been in a public place and seen a former jail inmate. Unfortunately, his Sheriff is an idiot, and has taken arrest powers away from the Corrections Officers, and won't allow them to carry a weapon, unless they do so with a Carry Permit, just like any other citizen of Maine.

Of course, I personally believe that all people eligible to own a firearm ought to be allowed to get a carry permit, and people issued permits should be allowed to carry whenever and wherever they deem necessary.

[DBTN]

In general, yes. But this law directly addresses the states and does not allow that. It is all in how the law is written.

[DaveTN]

Ok, if Federal law allows it, and State law prohibits it, wouldn't the State law be the one that must be abided by?

There are still many legal interpretations and court rulings in process on HR218.

NJ for example bans Officers from carrying in casinos. Most LE originations are warning their members to abide by states laws governing where they can carry.

If NJ can claim casinos; I would guess that Tennessee can claim bars and restaurants that serve alcohol.

On the other hand Illinois bans carry by anyone but Illinois LEO’s. But they have (so far) abided by HR218 in allowing both full time and retired Officers to carry.

I would not want to be a Police Officer that tested the carry in restaurant/alcohol restriction in Tennessee and claim HR218 allows it. If wrong; it could be a career ending move.

Maybe DBTN can fill us in on if there have been any court rulings in Tennessee?

It is expected that guidance on this law will come down from the State Attorney General's Offices, and we strongly recommend that officers wait until such time before carrying their weapons over state lines.

We would like to offer some warnings for all to heed.

First, when in another state you will be subject to the use of force laws of that state. Additionally, the laws of arrest, self defense, and firearms in other states will be different and will govern any actions taken.

HR 218 will not be a defense to possessing hollow point bullets, carrying a weapon on a school campus, carrying a prohibited weapons, carrying a weapon in a casino, etc. Some of these scenarios are illegal in certain states. Know HR 218, but also know the laws of that state in which you intend to carry!

http://www.njlawman.com/Feature%20Pieces/HR%20218.htm

Finally, H.R. 218 does not supersede or limit existing New Jersey law. Therefore, it remains permissible for private business and government agencies (such as casinos and schools), as many currently do, to restrict the possession of firearms on their property.

http://www.njlawman.com/Articles%202/HR218-New-Jersey-Law.htm

[Marswolf]

Is it time for a group hug yet?

[The Rabbi]

Ok, if Federal law allows it, and State law prohibits it, wouldn't the State law be the one that must be abided by? To use a firearms example, NFA 34 allows possession of silencers, machineguns, and other Title II weapons. However, many States ban their ownership, regardless of what Federal law allows. Those State laws must be obeyed, so I'm assuming that should be the case with LEO carry.

Personally, I think cops should be allowed to carry 24/7, on duty or off. My Dad is a Deputy Sheriff, and has been for 20 years. He's had numerous times when he's been in a public place and seen a former jail inmate. Unfortunately, his Sheriff is an idiot, and has taken arrest powers away from the Corrections Officers, and won't allow them to carry a weapon, unless they do so with a Carry Permit, just like any other citizen of Maine.

Of course, I personally believe that all people eligible to own a firearm ought to be allowed to get a carry permit, and people issued permits should be allowed to carry whenever and wherever they deem necessary.

Agreed 100% and part of what irks me about the whole business. Whatever happened to federalism?

DBTN, nice to see you hear as well as in the shop. There was a complaint that we have no full-time LEOs here so you can fix that. Just don't tell us what you think of open carry.

[DBTN]

The above excert has casinos referenced as government agencies. I do not know. I am not from New Jersey. If that is the case, then under H.R. 218 you can not carry there. H.R. 218 does not limit a state's authority to restrict the carrying of handguns on state/government property. It does not limit a private individual from not allowing a handgun on their property. It does, however, free LE officers from any state restrictions with regard to carrying on private property. In Tennessee this opens up two areas that have been previously restricted for off-duty LE. They are places that sell alcohol for on site consumption and private schools.

There is much debate over H.R. 218. I have seen little debate as to where officers can carry under it. The primary debate is over the qualification of retired personnel. A new version, Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2007, has been introduced that addresses some short comings of the first version. Those short comings have nothing to do with where an officer can carry. They have to do with procedural aspects of implementing the law for retirees.

[molonlabetn]

You are correct if that is the case. Besides the written law that we have internet access to; there is case law. Are there case laws on cops carrying 24/7? Let’s ask one of the forum full time cops…. Oh wait… we don’t have any.

I’m surprised at some of the people here that want to limit anyone carrying anywhere. Sure I’m obviously pro law enforcement and I got to carry anywhere I wanted any time I wanted within the confines of my state. On-duty, off duty, bars, government buildings; it didn’t matter. The only place I can remember not being able to carry a gun was if I wanted to enter a jail.

Don’t be pissed off at the cops they didn’t make the laws.

That's the thing, I don't want carry to be restricted at all. But a badge is not a free pass to break laws which exist, even if they aren't right. Just like a carry permit isn't a free pass to break laws. But when it makes more sense to ignore a law in the interest of survival, it's a bad law, qualification has nothing to do with it.

[Marswolf]

Are there case laws on cops carrying 24/7? Let’s ask one of the forum full time cops…. Oh wait… we don’t have any.

Dave, just because you don't see people posting that they are professional LE, that doesn't mean they aren't on here reading and even sometimes posting. A lot of talk goes on in email loops too.

You know the old saw about what assume means.

[DaveTN]

That's the thing, I don't want carry to be restricted at all. But a badge is not a free pass to break laws which exist, even if they aren't right. Just like a carry permit isn't a free pass to break laws. But when it makes more sense to ignore a law in the interest of survival, it's a bad law, qualification has nothing to do with it.

Oh I agree with that. I will go so far as to say that I’m fine with carry without any training requirement. Training is the responsibility of the person carrying. If they violate a firearms law, pull a gun or shoot someone when they are not legally justified; they go to jail.

You and I are in full agreement about our rights. We just don’t agree where those rights come from.

I saw HR218 as a possible precursor to a federal carry permit for everyone. But then I’m looking at it from a different perspective than most people here. My friends and family can’t carry at all; no matter who they know or no matter how much they pay. I’m not a retired cop so the bill does nothing for me. But I don’t think it benefits the carry community as a whole to be pizzed off about cops or retired cops being allowed to carry when and where others can’t. (If that is even the case)

If you ignore a state criminal law on where and when you can carry you are a criminal. I can’t think of a reason why you would have to do that.

[DaveTN]

Dave, just because you don't see people posting that they are professional LE, that doesn't mean they aren't on here reading and even sometimes posting. A lot of talk goes on in email loops too.

You know the old saw about what assume means.

I never used the words “Professional LEâ€. I used the words “full time copsâ€.

Glad to see we have some.