Are you religious or just spiritual?

[Superman]

I am not religous and not very spritual, so in some peoples eyes I am not a good person. I don't believe you have to have faith in something to be a good person. I give to charities and help people whenever I can. I think there might be a god of some sort, there may even be several. I believe there is a heaven, if there is I believe we are all going there. I believe there is a hell and we are all here. If GOD created anything worse than this he is one sick and twisted dude.

If you think I have to be a christian and believe in god and jesus to be a good person, I truly feel sorry for you.

[Guest Tiny G]

I have always viewed God as a father figure. He can guide you (bible), be there to listen (prayer), and comfort you (faith), but it's ultimately up to us what we do with the time we are given on this earth.

Wise words . . . I completely agree

[leroy]

Jamie:_____________

Some things to think about:

RE: Life is an illusion. We're not really here.

Are we really here? I'm pretty sure at least a couple of religions speculate or hint at the possibility that this "reality" is nothing more than a dream in some sleeping god's mind... And from a physics point of view, all solid matter really isn't anything more than a bunch of interactive energy fields...

So you might have a tough time proving that we are indeed really here. I mean, we think, but does that necessarily mean we truly are? ( "I think, therefore I am", is the oft-used quote I'm referring to here. )

If you step into the path of a bus or truck running about 70 mph. It is a certanity (baring a miracle) that you will be gone. That even happens in India, the home of illusion.

RE: Evolution

No proof of evolution? Never studied biology, have you? Or paleontology, or even modern medicine... there's plenty of tangible proof of evolution.

Matter of fact, I have. I will concede micro-evolution or adaptation. There are no "transitional species" to prove macro-evolution. Macro - evolution is a theory; not a fact. To say otherwise is dishonest. Even the great humanist Bill Nye, "The Science Guy" says that "stupendous claims require stupendous proof". There aint any.

RE: The ancients were lightweights.

As for the ancients... they were a superstitious people that didn't understand much past the "here and now"...

The “here and now” is pretty important. The point seems to be that they were “lightweights” because they were not privy to the “technological advancements” of modern science and the humanist world view. It’s a weak point.

The ancient Greeks gave us the university, philosophy, literature, art, architecture, the beginnings of scientific investigation and the concept of democracy. They conquered the civilized world. Remember a guy by the name of Alexander the Great. He was “great” because he did conquer the world (his tactics are still studied today) and he brought the “Hellenist” civilization(libraries, the university, art, architecture, a universal written language) to those he conquered. Sounds pretty important to me. I wouldn’t dismiss them if I wuz you. If you are white and western European; your ancestors were wearing bearskins and worshipping trees about this time. A fella named Julius Caesar brought some culture to your (and my) ancestors. It just didnt take too well. The Romans famously called our ancestors "Barbarians" -- no culture, no written language, nothing but warring tribesmen. Our culture started writing very late. The Romans, Greeks, Hebrews, and others had been doing it for centuries.

My favorites are the Romans, the real practical guys, and the toughest guys on the block. They are the fathers of our present republican form of government, the legal system, the military (they, too have their tactics studied at the USMA and other places), transportation (Roman roads), water supply (the aqueducts), indoor plumbing, etc, etc. Hardly primitive. They brought a peace to the earth that has not been seen since. It is called the “Pax Roma” – The Roman Peace. It lasted for about 300 years – longer than this country is old. They were hardly “primitive”; they were cynics. A great way to be if you are tough enough -- it just happens to be wrong. They incorporated foreign gods (including God) into their pantheon. The deal was that you could worship any god you wanted to as long as you did what the Romans said; including the worship of the Emperor. That’s why those pesky Jews and Christians got smacked. They would serve Rome; they just wouldn’t bow down and worship the emperor.

RE: American primitive civilizations.

And there is plenty of evidence of that, if you'll take the time to study some of the more ancient cultures that still have ties to today, such as the American Indians.

I think it is interesting that all ancient cultures are "worshipers of a god or group of gods" no matter where you go. There are no athiest or humanist primitive cultures. Pascal appears to be right. RE: "The God shaped hole in the heart of mankind"; no matter how primitive.

In practical terms ---in some cases (some, not all) noble but Stone aged children. No lasting culture. Originally whupped by the blasphemous Spaniards and robbed in God’s name – a genuine tragedy. A heinous crime against them and God. Another sad story is our country’s treatment and subduing of the American Indians. I think it is interesting that this was done in the 1870 and later. Just about the time that Darwinism was in vogue. As you know, Darwin was the father of evolution. He was also the unwitting father of "Social Darwinism". I do not believe that it is a concidence that "Social Darwinism" spawned the concept in modern man to spank and subdue the "primitive". Even though you can make a case that some of this was done by a nominally "Christian Culture", you can't get around the fact that Jesus did not teach it. The fact is that the impetus came from Darwinian thought.

RE: Bad guys presuming to involk God's favor while doing bad things.

Ever hear of the Crusades, Leroy? Or maybe the Spanish Inquisition? Talk about "kill those who disagree with you"... sheesh!

Or how 'bout the Salem Witch trials? You know, BBQing people at the stake because of your religious beliefs...

My point here is that "Kill those who disagree with you. What a concept!!" is a shoe that more often than not fits both feet; religious as well as non-religious.

Check this in post #56:

Caveman: "Christians" have been killing people in the name of god since the beginning of man.

Leroy -- Response: I will agree that folks calling themselves "Christians" have been doing just that. The truth is that Jesus didn't teach that.

See post # 63:

RE: The problem of "killing our brothers, unpunished wrongs, etc. We are made in Gods image, but fallen. Bad people do bad things. They even appropriate Gods name in doing them --- imagine that!!!. Someone lying -- im shocked!!!.

...

I will agree that folks calling themselves "Christians" have been doing just that. The truth is that Jesus didn't teach that.

The fact is that the Twentieth Century has been the greatest period of killing in the history of the world. I don't believe that all of that killing has been done by quote "Christians". Quite the contrary. All the quote "Christian" killings in the history of the world pale in comparison to what the Russians did to their own people. About 60 million. The Communists don't believe in god (or God). It is a weak arguement to proclaim that quote "Christians" do all the killing.

RE: Pascal's wager.

...Im aware of Pascal's Wager... Unfortunately, it only works in very simplistic terms, and in absolutes. Meaning it's a yes or no proposition as to whether god exists or not.

The fact is that this is, indeed, a very simplistic question. The ANSWER to the question, however of paramount importance if there is a god (or God) who is a lawgiver and judge of mankind. Blaise Pascal was a genius mathmatician and philosopher. Those are pretty heavy credentials. Genius has a way of boiling the complicated down into terms that are understandable to the rest of us (the 99.9 % of the rest of us who are not geniuses).

RE: Absolutes. There are absolutes. In math 2 + 2 is always 4. Casual observation of the physical sciencies teach that there are many wrong ways and few right ways. Pascal's "simplicity" is fully warranted here.

RE: Responsibility for one's on actions.

I listen, and evaluate for myself though. I don't take the information as the truth just because that's what someone else says, or because "that's the way it's always been".

After all, when it comes right down to it, it is MY ass that's on the line with whatever I choose to believe or ignore, not the person's who is passing along the information, no?

You (me, and we all) are, indeed, individually responsible for our own actions.

Recap from post # 63:

RE: Dont have the answers. I understand. My council is to keep looking and look honestly.

Finally, dont beat people up who say that they have the answers. Examine honestly what they believe and why they believe it.

Kind regards,

LEROY

Edited October 24, 2009 by leroy
Notes on ancient cultures, spelling, etc

[Oh Shoot]

Most of the Big Questions are totally unknowable, at least to our species at this time. So most choose to believe something that gives one comfort, which usually includes the notion of an afterlife.

Atheism is as conceited a claim as "the one true God", so agnosticism at least feels intellectually honest - but since it's difficult for any puny human brain to conceive of the buck not stopping somewhere, just put me down with Jefferson et al as a Deist.

- OS

[Smith]

For a minute I thought we were going into some Bertrand Russell dialogue.

Anyway my .02, I have been a Pastor for the last 12 years and one thing I have found is that most can't define spiritual or religious. Depending on how they define those terms shapes the conversation. Here's mine.

I believe we are all spiritual in the sense that we have a spirit that is searching for purpose and relevance to our existence. I also believe we are all religious in the the sense that we ALL subscribe to some governing form of living. Even those who claim neutrality are not. It is inherently impossible.

That being said, I simply try to follow my savior and Lord Jesus Christ and his Word to us. If I am wrong, I am no worse off than any other "religion" or belief system when I die and while I live I am constantly challenged to do better. However, if "they" are wrong and Christ is right, then they are lost.

I, as some others here, have degree's in theology, History, Philosophy, etc. and they ultimately mean nothing. It is much simpler than some elitist knowledge (think Pharasees). I believe as the Bible says that we all have the Word/truth written on our hearts. If we are honest and follow that script it will lead us where we need to be.

Another thing I've learned is that arguments lead nowhere. All I can say is what I know and what I know is that Jesus was born of virgin, lived a perfect life, died for our sins, and rose again on the third day. Romans 10:9 " If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

Edited October 24, 2009 by Smith

[Guest blackbeltchick]

All I know is that there is something stronger than the human race that can and does perform miracles. I don't care what you call it, God, Jesus, budda, Mother Mary, or anything else I can't think of at this moment. It does happen everyday! And I do know prayer does help, at least it does for me. I don't go to church anymore because of the feeling of being judged and pressured into always giving money. I don't believe I'll go to he--, I believe my God will except me for who I am, not what other people believe I should be. And as far as murders, rapes, and other violent crimes, IMO, that's mans fault not Gods, just like it's not the gun that kills, it's the man/woman that pulled the trigger.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

I am not religous and not very spritual, so in some peoples eyes I am not a good person. I don't believe you have to have faith in something to be a good person. I give to charities and help people whenever I can. I think there might be a god of some sort, there may even be several. I believe there is a heaven, if there is I believe we are all going there. I believe there is a hell and we are all here. If GOD created anything worse than this he is one sick and twisted dude.

If you think I have to be a christian and believe in god and jesus to be a good person, I truly feel sorry for you.

Superman, if you are responding to my post (#10), that's not what I meant at all.

I know lots of good people who aren't Christian or who are agnostic.

I was more curious about what made people decide to be good if they didn't believe in a "higher power." This has always interested me.

LOL...job related, I guess.

[Motasyco]

Superman, if you are responding to my post (#10), that's not what I meant at all.

I know lots of good people who aren't Christian or who are agnostic.

I was more curious about what made people decide to be good if they didn't believe in a "higher power." This has always interested me.

LOL...job related, I guess.

People can be good because they care about others and the world around them. Some people believe good things come to those that do good things. I guess now I'm curious that if some people only do good because of the fear of a higher power, does that really make them good people? I think true goodness comes from the heart, not from fear of retribution.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

I didn't ask to judge the validity of the motivation, just to see what the motivation is.

We all have the potential to go "primal." I'm just curious about what keeps most of us from doing it.

You said "fear" of a higher power (I didn't).

I might say "love" of a higher power.

It's just an honest question.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[Superman]

Superman, if you are responding to my post (#10), that's not what I meant at all.

I know lots of good people who aren't Christian or who are agnostic.

I was more curious about what made people decide to be good if they didn't believe in a "higher power." This has always interested me.

LOL...job related, I guess.

No, not directed at you. I think Leroy said something like it. But it wasn't directed at him either. I have heard comments like that many times before, that you can't be a good person without faith in GOD. I have also heard "How can you believe in heaven if you don't believe in hell"

I am more interested in what drives people to not be a good person or to be evil. I believe what goes around comes around. If you do good good will happen to you. If you do bad bad will happen to you. Plus being a good person makes you feel a whole helluva lot better than being a bad person. And it makes the people you are good to, feel a whole lot better as well. When I get mad at some one it doesn't last long. I have never been able to be mad at someone for very long at all. Most of the time me being mad only last a few minutes.

[Motasyco]

I didn't ask to judge the validity of the motivation, just to see what the motivation is.

We all have the potential to go "primal." I'm just curious about what keeps most of us from doing it.

You said "fear" of a higher power (I didn't).

I might say "love" of a higher power.

It's just an honest question.

I guess I said fear because that's pretty much my take on the "be good or you'll go to hell" concept. I can see where love of a higher power could influence good in people just as love of fellow humans would. In either case I still feel that the love comes from the heart. Human emotion is powerful. Love and hate are closely related. To have the powerful feeling of hate you first have to care deeply about something or someone. Can you feel hate if you don't care?

[Guest tedbo]

I didn't ask to judge the validity of the motivation, just to see what the motivation is.

We all have the potential to go "primal." I'm just curious about what keeps most of us from doing it.

You said "fear" of a higher power (I didn't).

I might say "love" of a higher power.

It's just an honest question.

Nicely articulated!

In my case it is love of a higher power.

If that higher power hadn't interjected in my life at certain times I could see me going primal on a certain number of people.

I have seen that higher power's love expressed to me and some people close to me that makes it more than just a "chance".

All of us,no matter how meek and mild we may be everyday all day can go primal if there is a certain button pushed.

I have seen it in my life and just go 'Dang!"