Are you religious or just spiritual?

[DavidM]

And AMEN on Post #49, Mousegunner. When we (notice I included myself) people of very finite minds try to figure out or second guess an infinite God, we are treading on dangerous ground. I am so glad that God shows mercy for our actions.

[Guest mustangdave]

I am a member of..The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...the Mormons

[leroy]

The argument against God "If there were a God He would not allow such and such evil thing." This is to presume that you understand everything perfectly, and that you are qualified to sit in judgment on God. It's also to ask that God force everyone to do only good, and take away freedom and personal responsibility. That won't work. Also, it is to blame God for the evil, instead of the actual evil people doing their evil deeds. It's a shallow argument against the existence of God.

Amen brother!! Great wisdom.

The question is now whether there is a "God" -- there is. The question is "do you know Him?".

The great battle upon this earth today is the battle of Humanism which postulates that "man is the measure of all things" ;Theism which postulates that there is a god -- and that some "enlightened one" (Mohammed, Budda, Confucious, Charles Tas Russel, Mary Baker Eddy, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson -- ect, etc) know who he is and has received a revelation from him; and the God of the Universe who has been taking a beating lately at the hands of the foolish.

The Humanists are busy making fools of their selves by pretending to be good and failing. They have almost destroyed our education enterprise, government, and legal enterprise -- many believe their darkened lies. The the theists are busy striking and killing their brothers in the name of a "god" -- the great example is militant islam is busy destroying much of the horn of africa and indonesia -- they are spreading their message with the sword and subduing many.

Christianity (the real one) stands in contrast to these two systems in that it teaches that God came to earth, lived a sinless life, died for the sins of the world, and is now sitting at the right hand of God, and will come again to judge all mankind. It also teaches the truth that we cannot be good enough, moral enough, etc etc to meet God's perfect standard. That is why He chose to send His Son to die for the sins of the world (everybody -- you, me, them...). It's a free gift-- you cant earn it --- you have to accept it. The fact is that Christians arent better than others -- they are sinners too; and they fail from time to time -- they are simply forgiven. From that thankfulness comes a desire to serve Him and follow His laws -- from that desire flows ethics, morals, concern for your neighbor, ect,ect.

I have been a keen observer of humanity for a long time now. I can tell you emphatically and without reservation that mankind is bad and not good. Unredeemed humanity is depraved and incabable of doing the right thing ---again, people are bad and not good. Take a look around. We are blessed to live in a country where we have religious toleration (for the time being). No one will make you go to church here (or keep you from going like the soviets did, or make you go to one the government picks out like the muslum countries do). The fact is -- you are a free citizen in this country due to its Judeo-Christian foundations -- you may deny it or think it isnt so -- but the facts remain. You have hospitals, schools, and philantrophy due principally to Judeo-Christian influence in western civilization. Do not believe for a minute that good things come from bad people --- they dont. Do not be deceived, what is good in this country and in the world is from the God of the Universe, not the tennants of Humanism or Theism.

Thus endeth the dissertation.

Kind regards.

LEROY

[Guest Caveman]

I disagree with most of your dissertation, but I had to comment on these particular parts.

The the theists are busy striking and killing their brothers in the name of a "god" ...

"Christians" have been killing people in the name of god since the beginning of man.

The Humanists are busy making fools of their selves by pretending to be good and failing.

This thread was intended to ask what YOUR beliefs are, not to give derogatory assesments of others beliefs. If you want to get into a bashing match about others beliefs start a new thread and will gladly give you a run for your money.

[Motasyco]

I don't consider myself to be religious as much as spiritual but have always had an interest in religion. Having worked in five of the seven continents on this planet, I've had the opportunity to know many people of many religions and have enjoyed the many religious discussions i've been able to participate in. I've found most people are happy to engage in these conversations and I see it as another aspect of experiencing the culture of the area you are visiting. I have found that the only place I've had people try to push their religion on me was right here in the US. I think everyone should be able to follow their own religious beliefs and worship as they want.

A few years ago I decided to participate in a Bible study group that met at lunchtime at the place I worked at that time. Again, I enjoyed many of the discussions we had although, without a doubt, I was being pushed, if not threatened, to believe as they did. One of the discussions I really had a problem with was that anyone that was not Christian was destined to go to hell. I find it hard to believe that God would not accept someone for not being Christian. There are many people in the world that have no exposure to Christian beliefs. They believe as they are taught in their culture just as we do here in our country. Should they be sent to hell just because of where they were born and what they are exposed to growing up? Is it their fault they had no exposure to Christianity? Christianity is not the predomninate religion in the world. I would like to think that the God I believe in would accept all good people regardless of where they are born or what their culture is. There is a common thread in all religions and that is a God. To think that Christianity is the only possible way to heaven or eternal life is, in my mind, arrogant and narrow minded.

I suspect I could have turned out to be more religious if it wasn't for the way I have had religion pushed on me and been threatened with damnation if I didn't believe the way I was told to believe. Religion should not be about fear, threats, and scare tactics. If you have to use fear to get me to think the way you do, well, you are just turning me away and my God doesn't work that way.

[leroy]

I disagree with most of your dissertation, but I had to comment on these particular parts.

"Christians" have been killing people in the name of god since the beginning of man.

This thread was intended to ask what YOUR beliefs are, not to give derogatory assesments of others beliefs. If you want to get into a bashing match about others beliefs start a new thread and will gladly give you a run for your money.

Caveman:_________

I will agree that folks calling themselves "Christians" have been doing just that. The truth is that Jesus didn't teach that.

RE: Beliefs. Those are my beliefs. The fact that you view them as derogatory is a problem for you; not me. If you are offended, im sorry; but i believe them to be true. Casual observation will prove them; take a look around.

I, like you, am not obligated to give equal value and equal reverence to all beliefs. All beliefs are not equal. I fully reserve the right to proclaim them just as you do your beliefs. I added to the discussion. I didn't start it.

No one here will make you believe anything you do not prefer to believe.

You might take a look and decide for yourself if you are an agent of the "thought police". If what i said isnt true, it wont hurt you at all. You may be offended, but that's a choice you make -- me, God, or anyone else didnt force it on you.

I aint interested in starting a spitting contest with you. I am interested in you and others comming to the light of the truth. That is a decision that you have to make. No one else can make it for you.

I aint much on being intimidated by words, pronouncements, and boasts of intellectual superiority.

Kind regards,

LEROY

Edited October 23, 2009 by leroy
grammatical edit.

[Guest sigmaguy]

I am not religious or spiritual. I am a firm believer that everything happens for a reason, and can be definitively proven through scientific research. The main problem I have with religion is that there are so many different versions of a specific story of a man who could heal critical diseases by touch and physically walk on water tend to lead me to belive that it was a BS attempt by a person trying to decieve a group of people into changing the way they lived, in a dictator-ish fashion.

In the last 16 years, I have refused to even step inside a place of worhsip except on one occasion which was my brother's wedding, for I was the best man.

[memphismason]

I feel as though I am a faith based person.

I preached for 6 years (age 15-21), and learned the inner working of two different religious organizations. What I saw "God's mouth pieces" say, plan, scheme, etc, made me sick. So much control, power, and greed, is sad.

I believe in God. I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. I believe that the Christian way of life is a good path. I also believe that the Hindu, Jewish, etc, are good ways of life. I think a personal relationship with God is what is important. What you call it has no bearing on the matter.

People put to much emphasis on "religion", which is man made, and whenever man gets his hands on something, corruption has a doorway.

I know of a group that split because of an argument over baptizing someone in "The name of Jesus Christ" vs. "The name of the Lord Jesus Christ". This one word "Lord" cause a split and now two different organizations operate separately from each other. Sad. Very sad.

I could go on for pages, but don't feel like typing all of it. So I will leave it like this.... I am a Christian, trying to live the best life I can based on the teaching of Jesus Christ, not on man's interpretation of them. I do not need a man telling me right from wrong, I can read. I don't need a man pushing what he believes is right and wrong on me.

"And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

[tbuford]

1 John 4

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

"Religious" to be used as a term to define a belief is very misleading...I am religious about many things...coffee in the morning...the gas station I go to....where I shop...even checking the forum...."Religion" is more of a pattern of behavior rather than a spiritual conviction. As far as spiritual....well, there are many "spirits"...to say that one is spiritual, that may be true...but to determine whether or not they are of God is a different story. My convictions are not based upon my beliefs, but God's teachings and the leadership of HIS SPIRIT...to discern whether or not they are of God is based upon prayer, study, and medition in his word. To say that one is a Christian means to be Christ-Like...and there are many that label themselves as Christians that are no more Christ-Like than my bassett....and I agree with many that state that there are Christians with a holier than thou attitude...being saved and a Christian, or a Child of God, makes me no better than anyone else...only better off!

[leroy]

1 John 4

1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

"Religious" to be used as a term to define a belief is very misleading...I am religious about many things...coffee in the morning...the gas station I go to....where I shop...even checking the forum...."Religion" is more of a pattern of behavior rather than a spiritual conviction. As far as spiritual....well, there are many "spirits"...to say that one is spiritual, that may be true...but to determine whether or not they are of God is a different story. My convictions are not based upon my beliefs, but God's teachings and the leadership of HIS SPIRIT...to discern whether or not they are of God is based upon prayer, study, and medition in his word. To say that one is a Christian means to be Christ-Like...and there are many that label themselves as Christians that are no more Christ-Like than my bassett....and I agree with many that state that there are Christians with a holier than thou attitude...being saved and a Christian, or a Child of God, makes me no better than anyone else...only better off!

Amen brother. What a truth.

Kind regards,

LEROY

[mhm2a]

I would not define myself as religious or spiritual...however...I am a Christian and I do have a special personal relationship with God. I enjoy the word of God and the history behind it all. I enjoy bible study with good friends and the fellowship that surrounds that time.

I often fall of the path and sin as we all do, but I try to live my life in a way that would honor my God, Family, and Friends. I am not a pusher of religion or a certain faith but will quickly tell you my beliefs and how my life has been affected by the lord.

[Guest Jamie]

The question is now whether there is a "God" -- there is.

Prove it.

You can't, any more than anyone else can prove there isn't.

And no, "belief" doesn't count, any more than "faith" does, since neither has any effect on reality. ( Both have a profound effect on a person's perception of reality, however. )

The fact is, there's not a single living person that knows if there's a god or not... much less one who can offer any real evidence one way or the other.

But many still claim to have knowledge that they have no way of getting or demonstrating proof for. ( Don't bother citing any particular religious texts; those were written, edited, and re-written by MEN, not God, for the single purpose of controlling other men. )

They simply can't deal with honestly admitting that they just don't know.

Sorry, but none of us have the answers as to whether or not there even is a god ( or God ), and we're not very likely to get those answers until we die. And maybe not even then.

But that won't stop humans from arguing, fighting, and killing over it, for as long as we exist, I think... Hell, that's what we've been doing for all of human history.

Personally, I don't have any trouble admitting that I just don't know the answer to the whole "god" thing, and don't understand why everyone else does.

J.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Jamie

[leroy]

Originally Posted by leroy

The question is now whether there is a "God" -- there is.

Prove it.

You can't, any more than anyone else can prove there isn't. ...

They simply can't deal with honestly admitting that they just don't know.

Sorry, but none of us have the answers as to whether or not there even is a god ( or God ), and we're not very likely to get those answers until we die. And maybe not even then.

But that won't stop humans from arguing, fighting, and killing over it, for as long as we exist, I think... Hell, that's what we've been doing for all of human history.

Personally, I don't have any trouble admitting that I just don't know the answer to the whole "god" thing, and don't understand why everyone else does.

J.

Jamie:__________

RE: Proof of God. Look around at the creation, How did we get here? Who put us here? What are our responsibilities to the 'God" and well as to others? All foundational questions of philosophy. Why are we even interested in these things. We are made in the image of God and share some of His attributes. We think create, etc. I invite you to judge for yourself.

RE: Dont have the answers. I understand. My council is to keep looking and look honestly.

RE: The problem of "killing our brothers, unpunished wrongs, etc. We are made in Gods image, but fallen. Bad people do bad things. They even appropriate Gods name in doing them --- imagine that!!!. Someone lying -- im shocked!!!.

Finally, dont beat people up who say that they have the answers. Examine honestly what they believe and why they believe it.

Kind regards,

LEROY

[Guest Jamie]

How did we get here? Who put us here?

You're working under the assumption that we were, or had to be, PUT here.

Now, I'm not claiming we weren't, but I can also see where we didn't have to be "put" or created, and simply evolved on our own, along with everything else on the planet. But then, evolution doesn't fit in very well with most any religion, does it? Can't have things working out by themselves without there being anyone/thing in charge and directing them, can we?

And for what it's worth, it's that very close-mindedness that all religions demonstrate that got me started asking questions to begin with, a very long time ago.

Anyway, there are several credible theories as to how we got here ( or how life ever got started at all, for that matter ). All have just as much chance of being true or false as the rest, I think.

J.

[Guest Caveman]

Jamie:

I agree with everything you have said. +1

[leroy]

You're working under the assumption that we were, or had to be, PUT here. --- We are here. Being here is not an illusion. How did we get here is the big question. Who put us here? Why are we here? I'ts a question that was asked by the ancients. The founders of philosophy.

LEROY

Now, I'm not claiming we weren't, but I can also see where we didn't have to be "put" or created, and simply evolved on our own, along with everything else on the planet. But then, evolution doesn't fit in very well with most any religion, does it?

RE: Evolution. "We pulled ourselves up from the primorial slime" -- so the biological evolutionists say. No proof. Others say that we are "cosmic travellers." No proof. At the minimum, it takes just as much faith to believe these theories as to believe the "God" theory.

LEROY

Can't have things working out by themselves without there being anyone/thing in charge and directing them, can we? Could be. Marx said that "religion is the opiate of the people". He didnt believe in God. His disciple, Lenin later conquered the russians and started the extermination of about 60 million people. Now there's a great humanitarian for you. How about that for "closed mindedness". Kill those who disagree with you. What a concept!!

LEROY

And for what it's worth, it's that very close-mindedness that all religions demonstrate that got me started asking questions to begin with, a very long time ago. You might want to rethink that "closed mindedness" stuff. You could be an unwitting victim. There aint nothin wrong with asking questions. There is plenty wrong with having preconceived notions going into that "question asking" exercise -- you generally get the wrong answer. Food for thought.

LEROY

Anyway, there are several credible theories as to how we got here ( or how life ever got started at all, for that matter ). All have just as much chance of being true or false as the rest, I think.

J.

Jamie:__________

Check this link out. Philosophy and the proof of God's existence by Roger Jones

Check this one out too: Pascal's Wager (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I invite you to read about Pascal. He was far more brilliant than most people.

Hope this heips.

Kind regards,

LEROY

[Guest Gun Geek]

I just have to say that when I first saw this thread I was a little worried about what it would turn into. Most debates regarding religion, faith, creationism vs. evolution etc turn ugly very fast. That being said I am proud of TGO members for keeping a very civil discussion regarding this. It looks like we have a good amount of different beliefs and faith, however the discussion has been good and has not turned hateful. Just as I expect others to respect me in my decisions, beliefs or faith I respect theirs and it appears that we all have a good understanding of that. Bravo TGO.

[Guest jackdm3]

Are you saying this thread is done? Putting a lock on it? It sure started to feel that way.

[Guest JustMyLuck]

Religion is a fine thing ......... in moderation.

(can't remember where I saw that quote)

I consider myself more Spiritual than religious.

What's the difference ??

I believe in God ............ I just don't believe he needs my money.

JML

[Guest Gun Geek]

Are you saying this thread is done? Putting a lock on it? It sure started to feel that way.

Nope. Not a mod here or anything remotely close, Just commending everyone that is all.

[Guest jackdm3]

Then let the further introspection continue.

[Guest Khitan]

Not very religious, but quite spiritual I think. But then.. I believe that Christianity, true Christianity is a spiritual way of life, and not a religion.

True Story:

I was on a prayer walk one morning, in a park behind the Ravinia Crown Plaza in Atlanta. I was feeling especially seperated from God. I told God " I know I shouldnt ask for signs, but I really need one... Im having trouble seeing you as real. You gave Moses a burning bush...thats what I need .. a burning bush" .... at that moment I looked up and there were 3 bushes sitting on top of a berm. In front of them was a littel plaque that said "Burning Bush: Believed to be the same type of bush Moses saw burning in the wilderness". If it had happened 10 minutes later I might have believed it was a coincidence.... but it happened right when I asked for it. Thats a true story... exactly as it happened in 1997, and the bushes are still there... I occasionally make a "pilgimage" back to that spot.

[Guest Tiny G]

I am a member of..The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints...the Mormons

Me too . . hard-core, through and through. Spent two years in the slums of southern Buenos Aires as a missionary and have seen the change it can make.

And to the guys that say "no one can ever know". . . sorry, not true. If you plant the seed and it grows into a beautiful tree, then you know it's a good seed. If you throw your seed onto the rocks, or don't water it . .then don't blame the seed for not growing. Faith to plant it, faith to nurture it . . but the fruit is real and your faith will change to "I know".

[Guest Jamie]

Okay, a couple'a things first, before I tackle your post, Leroy:

One, I'm not looking to change your mind. Got no interest in that at all.

You can believe whatever you like, and it's all the same to me. And as I said earlier, you may very well be right, for all I know.

The thing is, and what my my comments are concerning, is the fact that you may very well be quite wrong too.

One way or the other, you have absolutely no hope of changing my mind either.

All I'm doing here is what the OP asked for, and expressing my thoughts on the subject at hand. It's just a conversation to me. Nothing more, nothing less.

Two, I'm gonna try to unscramble all the quote tags, and answer each of your comments in turn. I apologize ahead of time if I screw up and butcher something you've said a bit. I'll edit as needed if you or anyone else finds a mistake.

And with that, on with the show...

We are here. Being here is not an illusion. How did we get here is the big question. Who put us here? Why are we here? I'ts a question that was asked by the ancients. The founders of philosophy.

LEROY

Are we really here? I'm pretty sure at least a couple of religions speculate or hint at the possibility that this "reality" is nothing more than a dream in some sleeping god's mind... And from a physics point of view, all solid matter really isn't anything more than a bunch of interactive energy fields...

So you might have a tough time proving that we are indeed really here. I mean, we think, but does that necessarily mean we truly are? ( "I think, therefore I am", is the oft-used quote I'm referring to here. )

As for the ancients... they were a superstitious people that didn't understand much past the "here and now", and did their best to make sense of what they didn't understand. They had no concept of evolution, and pretty much felt that since "this is the way it is now", that's how it always had been.

And there is plenty of evidence of that, if you'll take the time to study some of the more ancient cultures that still have ties to today, such as the American Indians.

RE: Evolution. "We pulled ourselves up from the primorial slime" -- so the biological evolutionists say. No proof. Others say that we are "cosmic travellers." No proof. At the minimum, it takes just as much faith to believe these theories as to believe the "God" theory.

LEROY

No proof of evolution? Never studied biology, have you? Or paleontology, or even modern medicine... there's plenty of tangible proof of evolution. ( A quick question for you... what's your appendix for? You know, that little pocket/flap off you colon, that's prone to get infected and have to be removed? Why do we have it, if it serves no discernible purpose? Could it be that it once did, but that we out-grew it's need? )

As for cosmic travelers "seeding" the human race... Could be, I guess. But even that get's into the same old argument of "where'd THEY come from?"

Still, if they happen to show back up some day, with records of the seeding, I'm betting there'll still be a great number of people who simply don't believe it because they don't want to.

As for proof of god... or God... can you point me to quantifiable, tangible proof of his existence, that wasn't generated by a human? Something that was simply discovered, not created or written? 'Cause I've got plenty of old fossils laying around here, right along with a few very primitive pets ( 4 lizards ) that will attest to evolution being a very real phenomena.

Can't say I've seen God burn any bushes or carve any stone tablets lately though... :-\

Could be. Marx said that "religion is the opiate of the people". He didnt believe in God. His disciple, Lenin later conquered the russians and started the extermination of about 60 million people. Now there's a great humanitarian for you. How about that for "closed mindedness". Kill those who disagree with you. What a concept!!

LEROY

Ever hear of the Crusades, Leroy? Or maybe the Spanish Inquisition? Talk about "kill those who disagree with you"... sheesh!

Or how 'bout the Salem Witch trials? You know, BBQing people at the stake because of your religious beliefs...

My point here is that "Kill those who disagree with you. What a concept!!" is a shoe that more often than not fits both feet; religious as well as non-religious.

You might want to rethink that "closed mindedness" stuff. You could be an unwitting victim.

Maybe.

But in the end, I'd rather be a victim of my own decision-making than I had that of someone else's agenda.

There aint nothin wrong with asking questions. There is plenty wrong with having preconceived notions going into that "question asking" exercise -- you generally get the wrong answer. Food for thought.

Well, that's something I think you're missing in what I've been saying here; I don't have any pre-conceived notions other than what I know of human behavior and psychology. As far as the question of religion, of if there is or is not a god, I'm open to all input.

I listen, and evaluate for myself though. I don't take the information as the truth just because that's what someone else says, or because "that's the way it's always been".

After all, when it comes right down to it, it is MY ass that's on the line with whatever I choose to believe or ignore, not the person's who is passing along the information, no?

Jamie:__________

Check this link out. Philosophy and the proof of God's existence by Roger Jones

Check this one out too: Pascal's Wager (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

I invite you to read about Pascal. He was far more brilliant than most people.

Hope this heips.

Kind regards,

LEROY

Leroy, I'm aware of Pascal's Wager... Unfortunately, it only works in very simplistic terms, and in absolutes. Meaning it's a yes or no proposition as to whether god exists or not. It doesn't address the possibility that a person might believe in god, but have an entirely wrong beliefe system regarding him/her/it. ( Christian vs. Muslim, for instance )

Or the possibility that god exists, started all this, but then moved on to other things and isn't paying attention anymore.

Oh, and for what it's worth, I'm pretty well-versed in a number of religions. I was raised by Southern Baptists, have had more than a little interest in Catholicism, the Mormons, Buddhism, Judaism, and most anything else that had to do with this particular existence, and what, if anything, might be responsible for it or controlling it. At one time, you could find any number of religious texts here... the Bible, the Koran, the Talmud, etc...

So I'm not exactly forming my thoughts and opinions without a good bit of information to work with.

J.

[Punisher84]

I'm religious. I believe in the christian God. I don't take much stock in the intricacies of religion and church though. I try to be a good person and enjoy my life.

I think alot of people grasp at straws to prove or disprove something you really can't. I have always viewed God as a father figure. He can guide you (bible), be there to listen (prayer), and comfort you (faith), but it's ultimately up to us what we do with the time we are given on this earth.