Baaaaad HCP Course.

[Punisher84]

An unarmed person can be dangerous as an armed person, it is different for each person. Depending on the size and skill of each person. If you are a bad ass and can take blows and kick to your face then cool for you. Do you think a person punching you in the nose, is going to stop just because you are bleeding? There will be more blows and more kicks coming. When will you decide that you are in trouble and try to pull out your gun and then the unarmed is now armed. You have been punched in the nose? Every situation is different.

Well disparity of force comes into play at different times. If you get into a bar fight and dude just starts winning you can't shoot him. Now if it goes from a simple fist fight to dude trying to impale you with a piece of re-bar then...you have a different issue.

[Guest 22-rimfire]

I don't think it is really possible to decide from a comfortable seat in front of your computer about disparity of force or other elements that may cause a person to defend themselves with a firearm. I know people that could easily kill me with their bare hands with little effort which I hope I take into account when someone frightens me and I'm in fear of my life or significant injury. The moral of the story is not to "pumch anyone in the nose" because you don't know how they will react and I doubt you really know who you are dealing with. It sure is tempting sometimes however.

[StPatrick]

It's stories like these that make me wanna hug Mark.

I took my course today (12/13/09) at G&L. Mark tailored his instruction and advice to those not familiar with or interested in firearms. I spent quite a bit of time lurking on TGO before I bought a gun, and then some more learning how to use it before I even considered taking my HCP course. Not everyone does this. Thus, his classroom instruction, and that inexcrable video (a .357 magnum semiauto? Who edited that steaming pile of ?) was tailored to those who needed the info most. I would expect that most reputable instructors do the same.

Gun enthusiasts are not who this course is intended for. In my group of 12 students, there were several who didn't own guns, and at least one person who had only fired their weapon the day before for the first time. There were two or three that clearly hadn't spent much time with the guns they did own before today as well.

I think the key difference between my experience and the OP is that my instructor had a current knowledge of the law, was able to explain, in real-world terms, what those laws meant, and obviously cared about what he was doing.

Most entertaining for me - once the class was in session, he managed to show his concealed P3 and Smith .38 (pocket and ankle, respectively), while explaining their presence with humor. Combined with the repeated references to "how best to keep loaded weapons at home, along with an OCD sized ammo stockpile", I think he did a great job of acclimating the new shooters to the idea that guns, and the people who really enjoy them, are not dangerous - until and unless they are in the hands of the willfully careless, ignorant, or evil.

Sure, I got little out of it beyond the certificate, but I have no problem with that. My TGO / trigger time made it more of a formality, but I was in the room with people who really needed that info.

p.s. I hate to be a jerk, but after today, noisily chewing gum and texting during the awful video should be an instant failure. Also, unrelated, stating out loud that you want to pick up surplus hand grenades is a bad idea. Not that they wouldn't be awesome or something, if that's what you're into, but wow...mentioning your desire for destructive devices and used, non-registered guns is a great way to end up on a watch list somewhere.

[Guest Bonedaddy]

If things have gotten one sided in a confrontation where you fear for your life from a beating, 9 times outta 10, if you pull a gun it will end without pulling the trigger. Just stay aware in case you "have to" pull the trigger and then call 911. If they are stupid enough to keep pushing, then you have reason to part their eyebrows if anything for your own conscience and your family's. Then hire a good lawyer.

[Kelemvor]

Still waiting on that permit. I just read through this thread again, I didn't even realize that it was still active.

Allow me to reiterate. You'd better have consciously made the choice that you'd rather go to jail than get whatever the unarmed guy is going to do to you when you shoot him, because those are the chances you are taking. It is just a choice. I trained in Chinese Kenpo for 6 years, I know that you can get OHKO'd by a well placed punch. I'd even bet money that if somebody lets me hook them in the chin as hard as I can, they will get knocked out. That said, I also know that you can also take a lot of poorly-executed, weak, or well-blocked punches without being seriously injured.

Of course anyone with sense is going to have to determine their own level of fear for their life, but for me, a sole 5'8 150lb drunk guy that thought I said something to him on the sidewalk is not going to get plugged after he takes a swing at me. The story would be quite different if a PCP addled linebacker charged me screaming at the top of his lungs. For the majority of instances where I could engage in fisticuffs, in my situation, shooting my opponent is going to land me in jail, so it's just safer to defend and retreat (unless it's my house/car/work, then that m'f'er is dead).

[LagerHead]

Still waiting on that permit. I just read through this thread again, I didn't even realize that it was still active.

Allow me to reiterate. You'd better have consciously made the choice that you'd rather go to jail than get whatever the unarmed guy is going to do to you when you shoot him, because those are the chances you are taking. It is just a choice. I trained in Chinese Kenpo for 6 years, I know that you can get OHKO'd by a well placed punch. I'd even bet money that if somebody lets me hook them in the chin as hard as I can, they will get knocked out. That said, I also know that you can also take a lot of poorly-executed, weak, or well-blocked punches without being seriously injured.

Of course anyone with sense is going to have to determine their own level of fear for their life, but for me, a sole 5'8 150lb drunk guy that thought I said something to him on the sidewalk is not going to get plugged after he takes a swing at me. The story would be quite different if a PCP addled linebacker charged me screaming at the top of his lungs. For the majority of instances where I could engage in fisticuffs, in my situation, shooting my opponent is going to land me in jail, so it's just safer to defend and retreat (unless it's my house/car/work, then that m'f'er is dead).

Ha ha. He said fisticuffs!

[Guest Todd@CIS]

The heel of your hand brought forcefully in an upward motion under the nose can drive the cartilage into the brain and kill someone.

FightingArts.com - Martial Arts Myths & Misconceptions: Pushing The Nose Bone Into The Brain

[Guest Todd@CIS]

IANAL, but "Reasonableness" and "Disparity of Force" will come into play at some point during the legal process.

Disparity of Force can include a multitude of things, but some of the more common examples are man vs. woman, big vs. small, many vs. one, young vs. old, healthy vs. feeble, etc.......so a very strong case could be made that "Grandpa" vs. "The Linebacker" is not a fair fight in a legal sense, and thus may entitle Grandpa to jump a level of force or two.

+1

Good post.

[Guest B_Carter]

FightingArts.com - Martial Arts Myths & Misconceptions: Pushing The Nose Bone Into The Brain

I had heard this since I was a kid too. Interesting to know that it would only make thier eyes water and nose bleed. What about a punch in the throat? That should do the trick until one can get away right??

[Guest Glocked-N-Loaded]

As to whether to pull on an unarmed individual that is whizzsoowzooping your rear, in the departments I worked for the general rule of thumb was that if there were a large size difference or if into the altercation you felt like you might lose control of your weapon or lose consciousness, it was time to draw. Right or wrong, that's what we were taught, a simple punch to the nose effects different people differently. I'm not a large guy but I can take a pretty mean punch so I'll go as long as possible open hand/closed hand PPCT(Pressure Point Control Tactics) until I cannot any longer.

[bubbiesdad]

I had heard this since I was a kid too. Interesting to know that it would only make thier eyes water and nose bleed. What about a punch in the throat? That should do the trick until one can get away right??

Or the brachial stun.

YouTube - Pimp Slap

[Guest jackdm3]

One stop DROP?

[bubbiesdad]

One stop DROP?

Yes, you have to be careful, hitting someone with the edge of the hand instead of the back could lead to serious injury or even death.

[Guest bkelm18]

Or the brachial stun.

YouTube - Pimp Slap

Pretty much the most awesome thing I've ever seen.

[Mike.357]

that was awesome

[highshot]

They say Pimpin ain't easy!

[Guest jackdm3]

"You know it's hard out here for a pimp (you ain't knowin)

When he tryin to get this money for the rent (you ain't knowin)

For the Cadillacs and gas money spent (you ain't knowin)

Because a whole lot of bitches talkin shi+ (you ain't knowin)"