Baaaaad HCP Course.

[TripleDigitRide]

"What basic info did they not get? Ok,let me list them for ya.

1."Didnt bring up carry in establiments that serve alchohol." Is THAT basic? I think so.Allow me to continue.

2.NOT ANSWERING his question "At what point in a confrontation does brandishing a firearm become legal or permissable". Is THAT basic? Again...I think so,call me crazy.

3.Lending unserviceable weapons to class members for range qual.

4. NOT knowing what BreakFree is,AND telling someone WD40 will"ruin" your guns. If that were true,Ive have/had about a hundred or more that aint worth a damn.Guess Ill have to dump em.

5.His own words...'They Half-Assed it."

I aint gonna say no more about it....apparently just getting the certificate is good enough for some of yall,so be it. To me,wrong info,no info,is doing people a disservice,and fodder for the anti-gun crowd. In my opinion,I would definately have spoke to the "unstructors" in private,and told them where/how they were wrong privately.It bothers me that some of yall value "getting the certificate" more than people getting real,potentially life saving info,especially those in the class who may not be as savy as us on the range,or politically/legally speaking. Anyway..Im out on anymore discussion.

With all due respect, were you this worked up when you realized your parents didn't get their money's worth on all those grammar and typing classes? Just asking.

[TripleDigitRide]

Sorry for my rant TripleDigitRide...this stuff is so important to us all,I DO tend to go overboard myself at times. My HCP class was really good.I cannot imagine sitting through some assclowns class like what was described,can you?

No worries. I know what you're saying. It's just that his story sounds like so many others out there. All too typical.

[TNTitan]

"What basic info did they not get? Ok,let me list them for ya.

1."Didnt bring up carry in establiments that serve alchohol." Is THAT basic? I think so.Allow me to continue.

2.NOT ANSWERING his question "At what point in a confrontation does brandishing a firearm become legal or permissable". Is THAT basic? Again...I think so,call me crazy.

3.Lending unserviceable weapons to class members for range qual.

4. NOT knowing what BreakFree is,AND telling someone WD40 will"ruin" your guns. If that were true,Ive have/had about a hundred or more that aint worth a damn.Guess Ill have to dump em.

5.His own words...'They Half-Assed it."

I aint gonna say no more about it....apparently just getting the certificate is good enough for some of yall,so be it. To me,wrong info,no info,is doing people a disservice,and fodder for the anti-gun crowd. In my opinion,I would definately have spoke to the "unstructors" in private,and told them where/how they were wrong privately.It bothers me that some of yall value "getting the certificate" more than people getting real,potentially life saving info,especially those in the class who may not be as savy as us on the range,or politically/legally speaking. Anyway..Im out on anymore discussion.

well. to be fair, the new restaurant carry law isnt part of the "basics" of HCP, its a detail. It isnt even covered on the written test. But ill agree its an important detail.

Regarding "brandishing a firearm", thats covered in the video he watched.

Lending unserviceable weapons: agreed, thats poor.

NOT knowing what BreakFree is: how is that basic HCP info?

"They Half-Assed it" - im not going to stick up for this school, and it sounds like they did a crappy job - im just saying that it is what it is, and people should not expect $250 worth of advanced carry instruction for a $75 state mandated carry class. Thats just me, I guess.

[Guest Straight Shooter]

Yeah...I do misspell when Im fired up! Just looked over my post and...DAMN!

[TripleDigitRide]

Yeah...I do misspell when Im fired up! Just looked over my post and...DAMN!

Just bustin' your chops. I'm far from a master at the English language myself.

[Kelemvor]

And how many times has this happened?

I'd wager not many, considering something like 90% of all confrontations end without a shot fired.

Over at Civilian Gun Self-Defense Blog , you'll notice that there are plenty of un-armed people attacked armed people and either stopped when presented with a firearm, or shot, and few (if not none) of the shooters are ever arrested.

Unarmed=/=not dangerous.

And juries know that. POLICE know that, too. Most of the time, anyway.

It's pretty much saying that the "misunderstood choirboy" story for gangbangers actually works every single time, and that the defense is always incompetent.

I am fully aware that an unarmed individual is dangerous. I don't believe in one hit fatalities like that guy was talking about, but I know that a strong, trained or strong and trained individual can be very dangerous in hand-to-hand combat. That said, you better think hard before popping holes in an unarmed person. There was a story in this thread http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/28875-permit-holder-found-guilty-killing-employee.html where a guy killed an unarmed guy that was attacking him and he got charged with voluntary manslaughter. Not to say that everyone's situation is going to be like this guy's, but you have to understand the risk in shooting an unarmed BG.

If a 300lb behemoth comes up to me and starts swinging his fists at my head, hell yeah I'll pull my gun, and if he doesn't disengage, I'll ventilate him. I will also prepare to spend a while in court.

[TMMT]

I am fully aware that an unarmed individual is dangerous. I don't believe in one hit fatalities like that guy was talking about, but I know that a strong, trained or strong and trained individual can be very dangerous in hand-to-hand combat. That said, you better think hard before popping holes in an unarmed person. There was a story in this thread http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/28875-permit-holder-found-guilty-killing-employee.html where a guy killed an unarmed guy that was attacking him and he got charged with voluntary manslaughter. Not to say that everyone's situation is going to be like this guy's, but you have to understand the risk in shooting an unarmed BG.

If a 300lb behemoth comes up to me and starts swinging his fists at my head, hell yeah I'll pull my gun, and if he doesn't disengage, I'll ventilate him. I will also prepare to spend a while in court.

Not to challenge your post, but that guy in the story you referenced had way more wrong with his case than just shooting an unarmed person, he planted evidence, tampered with a murder investigation, was drinking alcohol and didn't report the shooting in a timely manor as well as him having a mouth about him always boasting about killing someone and planting a knife on them.

Not a good example IMHO.

[Kelemvor]

Not to challenge your post, but that guy in the story you referenced had way more wrong with his case than just shooting an unarmed person, he planted evidence, tampered with a murder investigation, was drinking alcohol and didn't report the shooting in a timely manor as well as him having a mouth about him always boasting about killing someone and planting a knife on them.

Not a good example IMHO.

"Not to say that everyone's situation is going to be like this guy's, but you have to understand the risk in shooting an unarmed BG."

I know it's not the best, but it was close at hand.

[Guest 7mmMag]

One problem you might face by not pulling your weapon is if you engage in a fist fight and your gun comes out of the holster or pocket or wherever its carried then it can be used by anyone that can get their hands on it. I have pulled mine on just a couple of occasions when someone was trying to rob me or approach me swearing and insinuating he was going to kick my ***. It seems once someone knows you are not playing and are ready to defend yourself with any means necessary they lose interest. BUT if you are gonna pull it be ready if they call your bluff. I figure in court if you explain that you told the person to leave you alone and you were armed and they kept coming at you that means they were really intending on killing you since they knew you had a weapon.

[Guest Arko]

One minor pet peeve....

A punch in the nose at any angle will not drive "sinus bones" into the brain. I HATE that hollywood/ninja myth! There is nothing in the anatomy of the face to DO that!

[Fallguy]

I think a lot of people forget the course is called Handgun Safety Course. I believe the main point of the class is supposed to be how to safely handle a gun. I think when the state came up with it, they were thinking that people that have never even handled a gun may be getting a HCP and this course would help them with the basics of handgun safety.

Comparing it to driver's ed is not a bad comparrison....you by no means know all the traffic laws or have superb driving skills after that course, but you know the basics well enough (or should) to get your DL. It is then up to you to learn more and develop your skills.

As far as displaying your weapon....I wish TN would pass a law like AZ recently did AZ Chapter 183

[Guest canynracer]

"What basic info did they not get? Ok,let me list them for ya.

1."Didnt bring up carry in establiments that serve alchohol." Is THAT basic? I think so.Allow me to continue. - New laws, they dont cover EVERY law, Every scenario in 300.00 classes...it would be MUCH longer than 8 hours. Not defending the school, sounds like it sucked...but missing this ONE thing isnt the reason.

2.NOT ANSWERING his question "At what point in a confrontation does brandishing a firearm become legal or permissable". Is THAT basic? Again...I think so,call me crazy. Again...if I were an instructor, this is a rabbit hole I would not go down either...the what ifs alone can take 29 hours...the law is clear, and mentioned. Eminent fear of death or serious bodily injury.

3.Lending unserviceable weapons to class members for range qual. "Lending a free gun? not sure I would "complain" about that...it certainly is not REQUIRED for the course.

4. NOT knowing what BreakFree is,AND telling someone WD40 will"ruin" your guns. If that were true,Ive have/had about a hundred or more that aint worth a damn.Guess Ill have to dump em. WD-40 it is a penetrating liquid...I wouldnt want that anywhere near my ammo. And what if they used "MilComm" and not break free? again, this has nothing to do with the laws of carry in TN.

5.His own words...'They Half-Assed it." - They may have been terrible, they may have been boring...but the reality is that the course is designated by the state. The materials are given by the state, the instructors can bend and tweak to try to make it better, more interesting, but they cannot change the required material. Now, along those lines, this is a class to get your PERMIT, this is a very brief, and I mean VERY brief on handgun SAFETY...the class is designed more about the laws of self defense, and has some "fillers" about the difference between a revolver, and semi-auto..and as I said BRIEFLY about the safety aspects. This is not the instructors, and YES they SHOULD add it in...this is the materials they were given...I know I know, its a handgun SAFETY course, I get it..unfortunatley, the materials are what they are...IMHO the person who decides they want to carry a gun and get their permit, it is THEIR responsibility to seek further training, and practice.

I aint gonna say no more about it....apparently just getting the certificate is good enough for some of yall,so be it. To me,wrong info,no info,is doing people a disservice,and fodder for the anti-gun crowd. In my opinion,I would definately have spoke to the "unstructors" in private,and told them where/how they were wrong privately.It bothers me that some of yall value "getting the certificate" more than people getting real,potentially life saving info,especially those in the class who may not be as savy as us on the range,or politically/legally speaking. Anyway..Im out on anymore discussion. Again, I agree that not getting the right information is a disservice, but this responsibility falls on the permit holder way more than the HCP instructor. As a permit holder you have a RESPONSIBILITY to know the laws, and be proficent with your sidearm. You should seek classes outside the permit class. You should take classes designed around drawing from concealment, and moving and shooting. during these types of courses, you can get more in depth knowledge about when/ and what to do about a gunfight.

On a side note, there is not a solid answer on when to use deadly force, the only one you have is "Were you in REASONABLE fear of death or SERIOUS bodily injury"? and can you PROVE that fear?

[SavageSig]

"Were you in REASONABLE fear of death or SERIOUS bodily injury"? and can you PROVE that fear?

Defecate in your pants for physical evidence!

Anyways, I think you're being too hard on the instructor. Basic courses are very basic courses. Did you snicker when he was telling people the names of parts of the gun? Like the trigger? I don't really think it matters a whole lot to the average joe HCP holder how HP bullets work, except that they expands and don't penetrate as much, which the gentleman pointed out. If you really felt so strongly about it, you could have spoken up and showed off all your knowledge.

[Metalhead]

It's stories like these that make me wanna hug Mark.

[BigPoppa]

I think a lot of people forget the course is called Handgun Safety Course. I believe the main point of the class is supposed to be how to safely handle a gun. I think when the state came up with it, they were thinking that people that have never even handled a gun may be getting a HCP and this course would help them with the basics of handgun safety.

You're exactly right. The HCP instructors should be handling the boots on the ground safe gun handling and shoot the qualifier stuff while The Video ought to take care of legal issues and liability.

However, we all know that the almost 10 year old video is so outdated and disjointed and often leaves students with more questions than answers that (conscientious) HCP instructors are having to step up to the plate and fill in those gaps as best they can.

In my experience, many HCP trainers make a concerted effort to stay on top of changes in state laws, federal laws, reciprocity, etc..........other HCP trainers ? meh.

[Metalhead]

"This here is a Glock .357 magnum...."

[BigPoppa]

"This here is a Glock .357 magnum...."

You got it, Ace. We go over that little nugget in every class.

[Metalhead]

You ever wonder how much flak that guy gets to this day over that? I sure do.

[Kelemvor]

One minor pet peeve....

A punch in the nose at any angle will not drive "sinus bones" into the brain. I HATE that hollywood/ninja myth! There is nothing in the anatomy of the face to DO that!

Yeah, it kills me too.

Defecate in your pants for physical evidence!

Anyways, I think you're being too hard on the instructor. Basic courses are very basic courses. Did you snicker when he was telling people the names of parts of the gun? Like the trigger? I don't really think it matters a whole lot to the average joe HCP holder how HP bullets work, except that they expands and don't penetrate as much, which the gentleman pointed out. If you really felt so strongly about it, you could have spoken up and showed off all your knowledge.

I agree that crapping in your pants would be a pretty good indicator of fear.

I don't agree that I was being too hard on the instructors. They said they have been teaching classes for 14 years and one of them was a Marine. I also understand that they were teaching a basic course, but if they were going to just teach what I needed to pass the test and then have me shoot 50 rounds into a target on a range, it could have taken 3 hours tops.

My main thing is, I don't mind spending money on things, but I like to get my money's worth. There were about 20 people in my class, $75 each (more for the security class people) makes $1500. Divide that amongst the 4 people working the class and you have $375. We can even assume that half of it went to paying for materials classroom space and range time. That still leaves them all getting paid $187.50 each for less than 8 hours of work. For that kind of pay, I believe that I should get some pretty good instruction, or at least correct instruction. I don't care how much other classes cost. I don't care how much a Lincoln Blackwood costs, but if I buy a new Ford Ranger, it better damn well run for the $20,000 I shell out for it, if you get my drift.

No, I didn't tell the instructors they were wrong. That would have been discourteous, not to mention, I would have spent god knows how long arguing with them over whatever I brought up and everyone would have hated me. I don't want to be "that guy".

[Fallguy]

, but if they were going to just teach what I needed to pass the test and then have me shoot 50 rounds into a target on a range, it could have taken 3 hours tops.

The state requires the class to be 8 hours long.

Yes, depending on the size of the class, teaching just the basics does not take near that long.

[Guest eyebedam]

So whwat/whos class did you take?

[Guest hi im drummer03]

NoSir.....you did NOT get your " moneys worth" AT ALL. If you left the class with questions,were afraid to ask a question cause you didnt want to have to sit through a rambling,inchoherent answer,if you got COMPLETELY WRONG information,like the hollowpoint bullet starts to expand when air hits it,if you had to drive all over hell and creation,ect.,ect.,then...NO,you did not get your moneys worth.For a lot of us,the shooting and gun knowledge we already knew,we just wanted to know all the legalities,ect. For some,they need all info they can get,and it needs to be correct and up to date. These shysters should not be teaching ANYTHING concerning HCP,or firearms,for that matter. They didnt even know what BREAKFREE was?!!You know,its about more than just getting the certificate,that is wrong,incorrect thinking. Its about learning how to be a lawful,competent HCP holder,and a responsible gun owner. How anyone thinks you got your moneys worth,beats me.

+2000

[Kelemvor]

The state requires the class to be 8 hours long.

Yes, depending on the size of the class, teaching just the basics does not take near that long.

This is what I figured was the case. At any rate, they could have made all 8 hours worth my time. I'm glad I got to take the class with 3 friends, but I should have done the research, in which case I would have probably taken the class with SafetySouth or Goodlettsville Gun Shop.

[extremescene]

My girlfriend and I each paid $60 at guns and leather and left feeling like it was worth every penny... we went because of the low price, but recommend it to everybody because of the quality of instruction... even though it is only a very basic safety class. He presented many scenarios and potential situations that we had never thought of. We enjoyed our instructor very much, although he was a bit political at times for no reason.

The .22s they let us use to qualify worked perfectly. Well worth $60... not to mention the range is on site and you can grab lunch at Sonic, directly across the street.

[raydog1]

Gotta say the CIS course was much better than this. I know I got my money's worth because I don't remember how much I paid. I tend to remember every penny if I feel I wasted it.

They did a great job of pointing out the shortcommings of "the video."