Baaaaad HCP Course.

[johnnyvol]

For someone who is considering when and where to take the HCP class, what is a typical safety class like? I've been around guns and such my entire life (pushing 40 now) and would like to spend my money to get the best "handgun education" I can, considering the fact that I need the basic course first in order to apply for my HCP.

I don't mind what it costs, as long as I leave feeling like it was money well spent. Clearly the OP did not have this experience.

I would consider any course/ class in the state. What is the "high water mark" as far as what to expect from this class, and who/ where is the best place to take it?

Thanks,

John

[Guest grimel]

That's all fine and good til you have 12 people that have never been in the situation being told that you're a bloodthirsty monster and you killed an unarmed man. Now, if you're sure that you can deal with the above, then go ahead, shoot.

All you have to do is be able to articulate why it was justifiable.

[Guest grimel]

If a 300lb behemoth comes up to me and starts swinging his fists at my head, hell yeah I'll pull my gun, and if he doesn't disengage, I'll ventilate him.

Really? Is that before or after you are KTFO? Or is that while getting your head caved in you'll somehow manage to draw and shoot without some decent H2H skills? What makes 300lb the magic size? Given about 2hrs of instruction on how and where to hit C.A.S. could KO (1 shot) about anyone on this board and he's a scrawny little thing. Every problem is not a gun problem.

[Kelemvor]

All you have to do is be able to articulate why it was justifiable better than a lawyer can articulate why it wasn't.

Fixed it for ya.

[Guest grimel]

You got it, Ace. We go over that little nugget in every class.

Don't forget the thumb cocking a loaded 1911 with his finger on the trigger.

[Guest Muttling]

Sorry you had such a bad experience, sounds like all you got out of it was a certificate and a permit. I went to On Target in Murfreesboro and was extremely pleased with the course. I already knew a lot of what they covered and could have passed the test without sitting through the class, but there were a number of details that I didn't know going in and I thought it was exactly what an HCP course should be.

[Guest louderthebetter]

Kelemvor.You said you would never shoot an unarmed person.To me the key word

here is unarmed.There are scads of bad guys out there that can pop you in the

snot locker and you may wake up or they may stomp you brains out while your down

so how can you say "never shoot an unarmed person".

The reason I carry a firearm is to protect me and mine and I can't do that if I'm flat

on my rear end with an eye hanging out on a stem because the bad guy I refused

to shoot was twice my size,half my age and has cornered me in a parking lot and

beat the crap out of me.

Now,I'm down and out,can't defend my family and to top it all off,he now has my

wallet,car keys,my firearm and my family.

I'f anyone here is not ready to take a life to defend their life,that person should

leave their gun at home.Some unarmed person just may sucker punch you,take

yours and make you wish you had left it home.

.....But thats just me,You do what works for you.....

[Kelemvor]

Kelemvor.You said you would never shoot an unarmed person.To me the key word

here is unarmed.There are scads of bad guys out there that can pop you in the

snot locker and you may wake up or they may stomp you brains out while your down

so how can you say "never shoot an unarmed person".

The reason I carry a firearm is to protect me and mine and I can't do that if I'm flat

on my rear end with an eye hanging out on a stem because the bad guy I refused

to shoot was twice my size,half my age and has cornered me in a parking lot and

beat the crap out of me.

Now,I'm down and out,can't defend my family and to top it all off,he now has my

wallet,car keys,my firearm and my family.

I'f anyone here is not ready to take a life to defend their life,that person should

leave their gun at home.Some unarmed person just may sucker punch you,take

yours and make you wish you had left it home.

.....But thats just me,You do what works for you.....

Well, let's just say that I would have to feel that my life was threatened by the unarmed person and I'm no super huge BA, but I'm not going to fear for my life when some dude that's the same size as me or smaller wants to whip my butt. I know what it will look like if I shoot a person for starting a fistfight, so basically what I'm saying is, more discretion than normal must be exercised when you are against an unarmed individual. In the case of women, children, the elderly, and the disabled, this does not really apply.

[Fallguy]

As has been said and we all know...you can use deadly force if you are reasonably in fear of your life or serious bodily harm.

If it goes to trial, there are going to be many other factors the jury will consider besides just whether the other person(s) was armed or not to determine if they feel it was reasonable.

[Guest SUNTZU]

I practice all the moves on Road House on a daily basis so I don't have to use my sidearm.

My instructor (Austin's TN Firearms) said if you use your gun plan on going to court. I don't intend to take out my Fists of Fury on someone who is attacking me when I don't know if he has friends nearby or weapons in his pocket. I did take the course to carry an ASP and will go to that first if the person is unarmed. At the same time, I will gladly take the next step up the ladder if he pulls a knife, bottle, etc. I might even skip that step if he looks like Bam Bam Bigelo. Those of you who've met me know I ain't any roadhouse ninja. The sidearm will be used in most cases. I now return you to The Wheels on the Bus Go Round and Round.

[Guest HvyMtl]

Hmm. I am grateful my class was NOT like your class... Did they even quiz you on the info they gave out? Is that not part of the requirement?

I did go to Guns and Leather - theirs was $60 for the class. Mark Crabtree was the instructor. You do have to supply your own ammo.

The info was straight forward. Yes, the Tennessee video is sadly done and seems error full.

Mr Crabtree was clear and concise. And even quizzed us on what we had heard. (A scored quiz, which had to be passed, or you had to retake the course. OP, again, did they quiz you on the info?)

Guns and Leather also rents firearms to enable finishing the certification, at a reasonable price, caliber of your choice... all of which were in good working order and recently cleaned...

(Why the State will let you use a 22lr to certify is, well, a mystery to me... I used my 45. Was kinda funny to hear the "pew-pew-pew" of the 22lr followed by the "BLAT" of my 45...) (Yes, I too, got 100% with on the target test part...)

They were quite courteous, particularly with the "new to the idea" people. Guns and Leather even had additional personnel to aide in the shooting part, to ensure proper safety measures were followed, and those unfamiliar with gun safety could quickly learn without danger.

Politics was not mentioned. The only "hook up" Mr Crabtree had was, in effect, you could never carry enough ammo. He used this as a kind of running joke to keep the crowd's attention.

I would recommend them. (And have to my friends, on this, and other forums...)

[BigPoppa]

For someone who is considering when and where to take the HCP class, what is a typical safety class like? I've been around guns and such my entire life (pushing 40 now) and would like to spend my money to get the best "handgun education" I can, considering the fact that I need the basic course first in order to apply for my HCP.

I would consider any course/ class in the state. What is the "high water mark" as far as what to expect from this class, and who/ where is the best place to take it?

Thanks,

John

Well, clearly I would be a little biased, but I think we put on a pretty darn good HCP course. We have a number of favorable reviews on this forum from folks who have completed our program.

Our HCP course includes a healthy dose of safety rules and safe gun handling doctrine, basic handgun function and nomenclature, the principles of marksmanship and some discussion of carry method pros and cons.

We watch The Video, and then discuss what parts of it are inaccurate or out of date (and that takes a few minutes) and we review what is necessary to deploy deadly force. We discuss where you can and can't go even with a HCP and reciprocity issues, and spend a few minutes on how to properly respond when you are stopped by the police and are armed at the time. We spend a few minutes on being aware of your surroundings and how the best gunfight is the one you don't get in in the first place. The written test is reviewed and administered and we discuss the actual HCP application process.

On the range, we go over safety....again....range commands, and manual of arms and then we shoot a few practice rounds to check everybody's marksmanship and get the new shooters a chance to get a little less nervous. We shoot either a 48 or 50 round qualifier and that's that.

That's how we roll.I suspect most HCP courses you find will be more or less similar to this. Some better, some worse, some longer, some shorter, some thorough and accurate, some....well, less so.

[Kelemvor]

Hmm. I am grateful my class was NOT like your class... Did they even quiz you on the info they gave out? Is that not part of the requirement?

I did go to Guns and Leather - theirs was $60 for the class. Mark Crabtree was the instructor. You do have to supply your own ammo.

The info was straight forward. Yes, the Tennessee video is sadly done and seems error full.

Mr Crabtree was clear and concise. And even quizzed us on what we had heard. (A scored quiz, which had to be passed, or you had to retake the course. OP, again, did they quiz you on the info?)

Guns and Leather also rents firearms to enable finishing the certification, at a reasonable price, caliber of your choice... all of which were in good working order and recently cleaned...

(Why the State will let you use a 22lr to certify is, well, a mystery to me... I used my 45. Was kinda funny to hear the "pew-pew-pew" of the 22lr followed by the "BLAT" of my 45...) (Yes, I too, got 100% with on the target test part...)

They were quite courteous, particularly with the "new to the idea" people. Guns and Leather even had additional personnel to aide in the shooting part, to ensure proper safety measures were followed, and those unfamiliar with gun safety could quickly learn without danger.

Politics was not mentioned. The only "hook up" Mr Crabtree had was, in effect, you could never carry enough ammo. He used this as a kind of running joke to keep the crowd's attention.

I would recommend them. (And have to my friends, on this, and other forums...)

Yes, we had to take a written test. I believe it is a standardized state requirement. They prepared us thoroughly for that test, which is great, but I believe that doing just the minimum is not good enough.

[Guest Ssmo]

Dont know where you got it that someone could not cause you severe bodily harm with just a fist.

That is pure rubbish. There are a lot of people out there big and small that could inflict serious bodily harm or death to a person twice as big as them.

Hope you never find out.

[macville]

Dont know where you got it that someone could not cause you severe bodily harm with just a fist.

That is pure rubbish. There are a lot of people out there big and small that could inflict serious bodily harm or death to a person twice as big as them.

I would say that most men (sadly) could probably cause a lot of harm to me quickly because even thought I am 6'4, I'm only 145 lbs! I also think that too many people get their "fighting education" from movies and believe that you can take 20 punches to the face/gut and get up for more. If you got beat like people do in action movies, you may live, but you won't be getting up for more (not to mention the physical problems you might have for the rest of your life.)

Matthew

[GLOCKMEISTER]

If this is the same instructor I think it is, he's been in trouble with the Dept. of Safety before.

All im going to say is this, if you feel you didnt get good instruction then you probably didnt. If you, a presumed novice in the law, caught several thing the instructor missed... then how much other stuff didnt get covered that your not aware of? If you want to complain to someone that will take care of it then PM me and I'll get you in touch with that particular person that can make a difference. It might mean you may have to take another course, but it would be the right thing to do.

Its instruction like this that makes everyone look at Tennessee's program with questions. Its also fly by night instructors like this that is going to make the state change everything they are doing soon, and ultimately cost all of us lots of money as instructors just to continue teaching. See it doesnt matter how many do it right, it only takes one "fly by nighter" to ruin it for everyone.

[Guest outlawtwins]

no way you got your moneys worth with no real info plus to that the average cost over the state is $50 not $75 as far as when to use your side arm no one can make that call but you you know your fear and danger level no one else

[Guest SUNTZU]

The video you watch in class clearly states that a punch to the nose does not justify deadly force. It says if you do this you "will" be arrested for murder if they die or attempted murder if they do not die.

So grandpa should just take a beating from a linebacker?

[Guest grimel]

The video you watch in class clearly states that a punch to the nose does not justify deadly force. It says if you do this you "will" be arrested for murder if they die or attempted murder if they do not die.

As has been mentioned many times in this (and other threads) the video is rift with errors. BTW, being arrested doesn't mean you are a) guilty or will be prosecuted.

[Guest 22-rimfire]

You have to take these classes with the right attitude. Most of the instructors are essentially regular people that have been certified. Some are LEO's of course, which I think is a plus if they are well informed.

The details about errors are about what questions are for. Yes, student questions sometimes cause the class to wander a bit. To me that is okay. The student needs to review the class literature or handouts to determine where is the proper place to voice a question. Good instructors will simply answer that issue is to be discussed later in the class or whatever. It is up to the instructor to keep the class on track, but again, for the most part these are not seasoned instructors.

I was satisfied with my class even though I felt at the time it was a bit simplistic. The instuctor is not a lawyer and freely providing legal opinions is not within their expertise.

My feeling is that there should be no class at all required to get a carry permit. BUT, if there was no class and qualification, the TN permit would not be so widely accepted by other states. Hence, I am comfortable with the current approach.

With reluctance I attended a class at all to get the permit. I was/am concerned that a zealous LEO could cause me more problems (legally) then it is worth, so I got the permit. One hour of legal fees easily cover the cost of the permit in most cases.

Ask a stupid question and expect a stupid answer.... reminds me shopping at Kmart the other day when they asked my birthdate... I replied 1/1/1900 as I felt it was none of their business. Sorry, I just had to add this after thought.

Edited December 13, 2009 by 22-rimfire

[Fallguy]

I dont agree with it but yes. If you go by what the law and video said yes that is the case as wrong as you or I think it might be.

To use deadly force the law says....

1. The person has a reasonable belief that there is an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury;

2. The danger creating the belief of imminent death or serious bodily injury is real, or honestly believed to be real at the time; and

3. The belief of danger is founded upon reasonable grounds.

From 39-11-611((2)

Serious bodily injury is defined as....

Bodily injury that involves:

1. A substantial risk of death;

2. Protracted unconsciousness;

3. Extreme physical pain;

4. Protracted or obvious disfigurement;

5. Protracted loss or substantial impairment of a function of a bodily member, organ or mental faculty or

6. A broken bone of a child who is eight (8) years of age or younger.

From 39-11-106(a)(34)

Although he may be arrested and have to go to court.....I think a lawyer could make a very good argument that an old man reasonably feared one or more of the injuries above if hit by a "linebacker"....therefore reasonably fearing a risk of serious bodily harm.

It would be up the "grandpa" to determine at the time how he felt and if he thought he could make that argument in court if need be.

But flat out saying the risk of being punched regardless of any other factor(s) doesn't justify deadly force is wrong.

[Guest HexHead]

But flat out saying the risk of being punched regardless of any other factor(s) doesn't justify deadly force is wrong.

The heel of your hand brought forcefully in an upward motion under the nose can drive the cartilage into the brain and kill someone.

[BigPoppa]

Although he may be arrested and have to go to court.....I think a lawyer could make a very good argument that an old man reasonably feared one or more of the injuries above if hit by a "linebacker"....therefore reasonably fearing a risk of serious bodily harm.

IANAL, but "Reasonableness" and "Disparity of Force" will come into play at some point during the legal process.

Disparity of Force can include a multitude of things, but some of the more common examples are man vs. woman, big vs. small, many vs. one, young vs. old, healthy vs. feeble, etc.......so a very strong case could be made that "Grandpa" vs. "The Linebacker" is not a fair fight in a legal sense, and thus may entitle Grandpa to jump a level of force or two.

[Glock262730]

An unarmed person can be dangerous as an armed person, it is different for each person. Depending on the size and skill of each person. If you are a bad ass and can take blows and kick to your face then cool for you. Do you think a person punching you in the nose, is going to stop just because you are bleeding? There will be more blows and more kicks coming. When will you decide that you are in trouble and try to pull out your gun and then the unarmed is now armed. You have been punched in the nose? Every situation is different.

[Punisher84]

With reluctance I attended a class at all to get the permit. I was/am concerned that a zealous LEO could cause me more problems (legally) then it is worth, so I got the permit. One hour of legal fees easily cover the cost of the permit in most cases.

Wow...good attitude.