Baaaaad HCP Course.

[Kelemvor]

Note: If this was your class, sorry, but it was kinda bad.

Sorry this is so long, I didn't intend on it. Still, I think it's a worthwhile read.

This weekend I attended a handgun safety course as the first step towards my HCP. I had thought I was going to have to wait to do this but a friend mentioned it to my wife and she asked me if I was interested taking the class with him, to which I promptly replied, "YES." So, the class was with a company called the Tennessee Academy of Personal Security (T.A.P.S.). It cost $75, and was here in Nashville. I passed with flying colors, 100% on the test, 50/50 hits on the silhouette. I think the only person out of the 20 folks that had a better grouping than me was my buddy's girlfriend who had a High Standard Supermatic Trophy .22 (she was a damn good shot on top of the nice pistol.)

Anyway, I wasn't originally going to review the course, but now that I think about it, I paid $75 and spent almost 8 hours with the people, so I deserve to get to review them...I'll be using the scoring rubric that my Intro to Design Class uses for presentations. All scores are from 0-3 with 3 being the best.

Introduction - 1/3

The class started off with a really, really old guy talking about how they'd been teaching the class for 14 years or something and wandering off topic every minute or so. I would have given the intro a 2/3, but they spent the first 20-30min handing out papers to everyone and making small talk when the papers should have already been on the tables and class should have started at 8am.

Organization - 2/3

The class seemed to bounce back and forth between topics erratically. Off-topic wandering was about a third of the class. At one point there was a huge plug for the NRA and how we should all join and a nice "Obama is coming to get our guns" rant. I don't really care what these guys believe, I don't have a problem with it, and they can tell whoever they want, except me when I'm paying them to teach me about handgun safety.

Knowledge - 2/3

I'm not going to get into this one much, because for the most part, the things they said were accurate and up to date. I was originally pissed that they didn't bring up the "carry in establishments that serve alcohol" topic, but given the crowd that showed up the class, it definitely would be safest for most of them to assume that they can't have a gun at those places. If an intelligent and responsible gun owner wants to carry into a "bar" they can look it up themselves, like us good folks at TGO. Anyway, the old guy said a couple things that I had issue with.

#1. He said that since "a punch to the nose can shatter all of your sinus bones and send them into your brain and kill you", he considers someone punching him in the face to be deadly force and is in fear for his life and believes it would justify him shooting them. While, for him (since he's pretty old), getting punched in the face might, in a veeeery small margin, result in death, the scenario he describes is straight out of Hollywood. I would never, ever, ever, recommend shooting an unarmed person unless you literally have no other choice, and at point you should be prepared to go to jail. He should have just said, "You don't shoot an unarmed person."

#2. He was talking about the differences between FMJ and HP bullets and went on to say that, [paraphrased] "The hollow point bullet is hollow on the tip so that when it comes out of the barrel the pressure of the air makes it start mushrooming and it keeps on mushrooming til it hits the target and busts a big hole and stays in the target." WTF. I almost laughed out loud at the guy, the only thing that stopped me was the sheer shock that nobody said anything to him.

One more thing, I would have counted the number of times I heard a magazine called a clip or a cartridge called a bullet but the clicker I brought stops at 9999.

Actually 2 more things, I keep thinking of stuff. Another instructor (there were 3 of them) saw my can of Break-free CLP in my bag and picked it up. He started reading it and was like, “What is this? It doesn't have water in it does it? If this is like WD-40, it has water in it and will ruin your gun.†And I thought to myself, “Dude, do you live in a cave?†Later the third instructor was trying to unseize the cylinder on one of their lender revolvers for the class (which they apparently never clean, despite telling us to clean our guns every time we shoot them), I let him use my CLP, and he proceeds to launch my little straw out of the nozzle and into the trash can and loses it. I told him to forget about it to avoid the awkwardness of the situation.

Conclusion - 0/3

There was no conclusion, to speak of. We finished shooting, they graded our targets, handed us our certificates, and we left. I haven't taken more than one class, so I don't know if that's standard, but I kinda felt like I deserved a few more minutes of lecture or something.

Voice and Mannerism – 3/3

They didn't mispronounce anything or repeat words or “ums†that I was aware of and weren't nervous during lecture. They did just fine in this category.

Audio-Visual Aids 2/3

We watched the hilarious state video (not T.A.P.S. fault that it was so bad) on an approx 19†TV sitting on a rubbermaid on top of a table. It wasn't loud or clear enough and the screen was tiny. They did bring some different guns to show us, which was nice. The semi-auto that they had was so gaudy, though, all it needed was a set of pearl grips and they could have schooled us on the proper way to slap a ho and sell a rock.

Response to Questions 2/3

They answered most everyone's questions but mine, basically. I asked “At what point in a confrontation does brandishing a firearm become legal or permissible?†They answered my question by going on a long tangent and forgetting that I asked a question. This exact thing happened a couple more times, with different questions.

Length of Talk 2/3:

I could have taught this class in less than half the time that it took the three guys and given at least as much instruction. I don't know if there is a mandatory minimum on class lengths, but they definitely met whatever it is.

Overall Evaluation 1.5/3

They pretty much half-assed it. Not that I didn't get what I really wanted, which is a certificate of completion, but if I'm giving them money, I'd like to get some more effort out of them. Also, a couple more things that didn't have categories. The range that we shot at was not in Nashville. We went to Joelton (exit 35 on I-24) to eat and there is a range there, did we shoot there? No. We drove from there to Springfield to a range there. Not a huge deal right? Well, they gave us a time to meet at McDonald's in Joelton before we headed over to the range (we didn't have directions, we were just in a convoy) and they were leaving the parking lot to go when we got there 5 minutes early. No headcount, no leaving on the actual time, nothing. Then we drove like 30min to Springfield.

Lesson learned: 14 years of doing it wrong doesn't count as experience.

[Guest jackdm3]

This is what the anti's are looking for: a record of insufficient "training" with the belief that we have less than the minimum range time of a rookie, or for that matter, a veteran cop.

[TNTitan]

How much did you pay? $75? ...and you passed. Sounds like you got your moneys worth. If you want more in-depth training, there are many good venders on this forum that can assist.

And yes, an unarmed man can inflict serious bodily injury on you, and that is enough to justify using your gun for self defense.

[Guest Straight Shooter]

NoSir.....you did NOT get your " moneys worth" AT ALL. If you left the class with questions,were afraid to ask a question cause you didnt want to have to sit through a rambling,inchoherent answer,if you got COMPLETELY WRONG information,like the hollowpoint bullet starts to expand when air hits it,if you had to drive all over hell and creation,ect.,ect.,then...NO,you did not get your moneys worth.For a lot of us,the shooting and gun knowledge we already knew,we just wanted to know all the legalities,ect. For some,they need all info they can get,and it needs to be correct and up to date. These shysters should not be teaching ANYTHING concerning HCP,or firearms,for that matter. They didnt even know what BREAKFREE was?!!You know,its about more than just getting the certificate,that is wrong,incorrect thinking. Its about learning how to be a lawful,competent HCP holder,and a responsible gun owner. How anyone thinks you got your moneys worth,beats me.

[Tobashadow]

And yes, an unarmed man can inflict serious bodily injury on you, and that is enough to justify using your gun for self defense.

Exactly!

Alot of people don't realize it comes down to the training level of the person you are up against, which you have a 0.000001% of knowing.

Example: you don't know me from anyone here and would not know me on the street, but i could brutally and painfully kill you with a ink pen very quickly.

Everything is a weapon in the right hands including nothing but their hands.

[TripleDigitRide]

Hey, it's not easy filling 8 hours with a bunch of almost useless information. They had to pass the time with something.

The basic HCP course is just that. Basic. If you want in-depth information and training, there are several places to choose from. Some of our vendors offer such courses.

You wanted your HCP certificate, and you got it. Sounds like $75 well spent.

Now fill out the proper paperwork, pay your $115, get fingerprinted.....Then hurry up and wait.

Congrats on passing the course.

[Guest jackdm3]

The money you saved will be better spent on ammo and free time spent with the learned (learn - ed) before you go to level II and beyond.

[Guest c.a.s.]

I agree with several others about unarmed people. I'm a minor first of all, so I can;t get my HCP for a couple years, but I'll make a point with my (supposedly, according to my doctor) height and weight.

I'm 5'4" and 135 pounds. 140 if you fill my pockets with rocks.

I'm a tiny S.O.B.

The average adult male could cause me serious bodily harm.

And I'm not supposed to grow much taller than that, and I likely won't weigh much more then 10-20 pounds heavier.

[Guest Straight Shooter]

"Had to pass thetime with something"?! Are you for real? Yeah,what about passing it with CORRECT INFO for Gods sake? And instead of "passing the time",what about TEACHING! No one went there expecting a freakin Thunder Ranch course,but from what the original post says,they DID NOT get BASIC information.I got an idea...lets tell all these16 year old kids,and illegal immigrants,that next time they go to get a Drivers License,they dont need to know ANYTHING really about driving,or signaling,or what the different signs mean,ect ect,just as long as they "get their certificate",yeah theyll get their moneys worth,wont they? And we will all be the more safer for it,WONT WE? Some of you guys...I swear.

[Guest jackdm3]

I'm 5'8", 172 and have always been told to put some weight on (I think to make them feel better about being overweight). I also have Multiple Sclerosis but you couldn't tell it right now. I have a lot going for me in the justification of using self-defense on the street, but I'd have a hard time proving that in court, I think.

You're the same physique as my wife and I think you both would have that going for you with the LEOs and courts.

[TMMT]

Ask yourself this question.

At what point will a simple fist fight or assault turn into great bodily harm?

Can you answer it for everyone physically? Will you recognize that threshold as being crossed while being assaulted and more importantly will you still be able to react once you reach that point?

When the thought of going to jail is far better than the thought of what could or is about to happen to you, the time has come to clear leather.

[TNTitan]

"Had to pass thetime with something"?! Are you for real? Yeah,what about passing it with CORRECT INFO for Gods sake? And instead of "passing the time",what about TEACHING! No one went there expecting a freakin Thunder Ranch course,but from what the original post says,they DID NOT get BASIC information.I got an idea...lets tell all these16 year old kids,and illegal immigrants,that next time they go to get a Drivers License,they dont need to know ANYTHING really about driving,or signaling,or what the different signs mean,ect ect,just as long as they "get their certificate",yeah theyll get their moneys worth,wont they? And we will all be the more safer for it,WONT WE? Some of you guys...I swear.

What basic info did they not get? Way I read it, he got the required info, passed the class, and can now apply for his HCP.

[Oh Shoot]

I agree with several others about unarmed people. I'm a minor first of all, so I can;t get my HCP for a couple years, but I'll make a point with my (supposedly, according to my doctor) height and weight.

I'm 5'4" and 135 pounds. 140 if you fill my pockets with rocks.

I'm a tiny S.O.B.

The average adult male could cause me serious bodily harm.

....

I'm 6' 2", 220 lbs - I shouldn't have 25 of that, and am a rattletrap from odometer turning over, poor maintenance schedule, and years of washboard roads.

So we're probably an even match.

Except for my knives and gun and no sense of fair play.

Serious Moral: I'm too old to risk taking what could likely be my last beating.

- OS

[Punisher84]

"Had to pass thetime with something"?! Are you for real? Yeah,what about passing it with CORRECT INFO for Gods sake? And instead of "passing the time",what about TEACHING! No one went there expecting a freakin Thunder Ranch course,but from what the original post says,they DID NOT get BASIC information.I got an idea...lets tell all these16 year old kids,and illegal immigrants,that next time they go to get a Drivers License,they dont need to know ANYTHING really about driving,or signaling,or what the different signs mean,ect ect,just as long as they "get their certificate",yeah theyll get their moneys worth,wont they? And we will all be the more safer for it,WONT WE? Some of you guys...I swear.

If you saw what the state hands down for "required info" you'd be alot more aggravated with the state than the school. The permit class is basically Handguns for Dummies. No more no less. It doesn't sound like it was the BEST class ever taught, but it certainly wasn't the worst.

[TNTitan]

If you saw what the state hands down for "required info" you'd be alot more aggravated with the state than the school. The permit class is basically Handguns for Dummies. No more no less. It doesn't sound like it was the BEST class ever taught, but it certainly wasn't the worst.

Exactly. Like drivers ed. You wont come out of it like Mario Andretti but hopefully you can parallel park.

It is just the 1st class, but hopefully not the ONLY class taken. Advanced carry classes should be pursued for those looking for more.

[Kelemvor]

Well, you guys are getting at what I would qualify as good reasons to shoot an unarmed person, but people should understand that you can't blow a guy away over an butt-kicking, and if you feel like your life is really threatened, then you should be prepared to go to court. This wasn't made clear enough by the instructors.

[Guest c.a.s.]

I'm 6' 2", 220 lbs - I shouldn't have 25 of that, and am a rattletrap from odometer turning over, poor maintenance schedule, and years of washboard roads.

So we're probably an even match.

Except for my knives and gun and no sense of fair play.

Serious Moral: I'm too old to risk taking what could likely be my last beating.

- OS

I only got knives, and no sense of fair play.

(Actually, in the words of The Martialist [opposite of pacifist] "The only fair fight is the one you lose")

Here's your new motto!

"Don't try to fight an old man. He's too tired to fight, he'll just kill you."

[TNTitan]

Well, you guys are getting at what I would qualify as good reasons to shoot an unarmed person, but people should understand that you can't blow a guy away over an butt-kicking, and if you feel like your life is really threatened, then you should be prepared to go to court. This wasn't made clear enough by the instructors.

That part should have been covered in the crappy video you watched. (Legal aspects of carrying)

[Guest c.a.s.]

Well, you guys are getting at what I would qualify as good reasons to shoot an unarmed person, but people should understand that you can't blow a guy away over an butt-kicking, and if you feel like your life is really threatened, then you should be prepared to go to court. This wasn't made clear enough by the instructors.

So tell me, people are supposed ot stand by while being beaten? I don't believe so. I believe in fighting back with all means possible. Someone is physically threatening me, and I plan to insure that they cease to be a threat. If you have a gun, use it. If you have a knife, use it. If you can grab a blunt object, use it. If you can't grab anything, go for the groin, the throat, the eyes, soft spots that are quick and painful targets.

[Kelemvor]

So tell me, people are supposed ot stand by while being beaten? I don't believe so. I believe in fighting back with all means possible. Someone is physically threatening me, and I plan to insure that they cease to be a threat. If you have a gun, use it. If you have a knife, use it. If you can grab a blunt object, use it. If you can't grab anything, go for the groin, the throat, the eyes, soft spots that are quick and painful targets.

That's all fine and good til you have 12 people that have never been in the situation being told that you're a bloodthirsty monster and you killed an unarmed man. Now, if you're sure that you can deal with the above, then go ahead, shoot.

[TNTitan]

better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6!

[Guest Straight Shooter]

"What basic info did they not get? Ok,let me list them for ya.

1."Didnt bring up carry in establiments that serve alchohol." Is THAT basic? I think so.Allow me to continue.

2.NOT ANSWERING his question "At what point in a confrontation does brandishing a firearm become legal or permissable". Is THAT basic? Again...I think so,call me crazy.

3.Lending unserviceable weapons to class members for range qual.

4. NOT knowing what BreakFree is,AND telling someone WD40 will"ruin" your guns. If that were true,Ive have/had about a hundred or more that aint worth a damn.Guess Ill have to dump em.

5.His own words...'They Half-Assed it."

I aint gonna say no more about it....apparently just getting the certificate is good enough for some of yall,so be it. To me,wrong info,no info,is doing people a disservice,and fodder for the anti-gun crowd. In my opinion,I would definately have spoke to the "unstructors" in private,and told them where/how they were wrong privately.It bothers me that some of yall value "getting the certificate" more than people getting real,potentially life saving info,especially those in the class who may not be as savy as us on the range,or politically/legally speaking. Anyway..Im out on anymore discussion.

[TripleDigitRide]

"Had to pass thetime with something"?! Are you for real? Yeah,what about passing it with CORRECT INFO for Gods sake? And instead of "passing the time",what about TEACHING! No one went there expecting a freakin Thunder Ranch course,but from what the original post says,they DID NOT get BASIC information.I got an idea...lets tell all these16 year old kids,and illegal immigrants,that next time they go to get a Drivers License,they dont need to know ANYTHING really about driving,or signaling,or what the different signs mean,ect ect,just as long as they "get their certificate",yeah theyll get their moneys worth,wont they? And we will all be the more safer for it,WONT WE? Some of you guys...I swear.

Sorry for getting you so upset. The first part of my post was meant to be in more of a joking manner. I should have been more clear with the use of a . My bad.

Fact is, you can easily get more and better information/answers from TGO than any HCP course out there. In far less than 8 hours, too.

[Guest c.a.s.]

That's all fine and good til you have 12 people that have never been in the situation being told that you're a bloodthirsty monster and you killed an unarmed man. Now, if you're sure that you can deal with the above, then go ahead, shoot.

And how many times has this happened?

I'd wager not many, considering something like 90% of all confrontations end without a shot fired.

Over at Civilian Gun Self-Defense Blog , you'll notice that there are plenty of un-armed people attacked armed people and either stopped when presented with a firearm, or shot, and few (if not none) of the shooters are ever arrested.

Unarmed=/=not dangerous.

And juries know that. POLICE know that, too. Most of the time, anyway.

It's pretty much saying that the "misunderstood choirboy" story for gangbangers actually works every single time, and that the defense is always incompetent.

[Guest Straight Shooter]

Sorry for my rant TripleDigitRide...this stuff is so important to us all,I DO tend to go overboard myself at times. My HCP class was really good.I cannot imagine sitting through some assclowns class like what was described,can you?