Vanderbilt Hospital vs State Law: Can I carry?

[Guest iamtwon]

I'm searching through TN state gun laws to find out if I can lawfully leave a firearm in my locked vehicle at my place of work. Vanderbilt University Medical Center is school property and probably falls in this category

State Law =

© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

Vanderbilt Policy =

Fireworks, Firearms, Other Weapons, and Explosives The use or possession of fireworks, firearms, or other weapons, explosives, or any type of ammunition on University premises is prohibited. (Student use or possession of these materials is prohibited off campus, as well, when such use or possession is illegal or may endanger the health or safety of members of the University community, or the community at large.)

Sports weapons must be kept in the custody of the Vanderbilt Police Department, which is open twenty-four hours a day. It is a felony in the state of Tennessee to carry a weapon on a campus for the purpose of going armed [hell ya I'm going armed, the BG's are!]. Air rifles and “BB” guns are considered to be firearms, the use and possession of which are prohibited on campus.

The use or possession of stun guns, flying Tasers, cattle prods, liquid stun guns, or other electrical devices designed to disrupt the human neurological system for the purpose of incapacitation is prohibited.

On Vanderbilt Police's website =

Tennessee Law (TCA 39-17-1309) and University Policy prohibits anyone other than on duty police officers from possessing firearms on campus. Vanderbilt University also does not permit storage of recreational sporting/hunting equipment such as Archery equipment inside the residential facilities on campus. Vanderbilt Police Department provides students with a lawful means of storage on campus, for firearms and other sporting/hunting equipment.

What are your thoughts on carrying to work? (To leave in your car)

Yes I've considered parking off campus. Too far to walk downtown, unarmed...

Edited October 13, 2009 by iamtwon

[TMMT]

Vanderbilt Hospital is posted, the ER requires you to pass metal detectors. On the hospital side it depends... they could arrest you for carrying or make you return it to your parked car and secure it, really depends on the officer and the circumstances.

The hospital from my conversations with a few employees seems to be a very gray area when you toss in the whole college/campus thing. Vanderbilt Medical School and the Nursing School is housed in a wing of the actual hospital and I believe a part of the college itself maybe a science hall is physically attached to the hospital. There is no real physical demarcation of where the college ends and the hospital begins. You also have the VA right smack dab in the middle of the Vanderbilt Complex as well.

If you work there I'm sure you are in violation of some obscure employee policy and I'd bet its a fireable offense.

Be careful when dealing with Vanderbilt Police, it really depends on the officer you end up dealing with. Some are good guy others have no business being Security Guards, let alone Police Officers.

[Oh Shoot]

...

What are your thoughts on carring to work? (To leave in your car)...

Often debated topic. The gist of it seems to be:

- It's perfectly legal for you to keep gun in car.

- It's also perfectly legal for employer to terminate you for breaking its security rules (or for most any other reason that isn't discriminatory by federal definition).

- OS

[extremescene]

fist thing is to delete your post because these forums are viewable from non-members and this could be a sure fire way for other co-workers or bosses to know you may have one in the car. Better that no one know but you!

That being said, there is a big debate in TN and I think they are trying to make it legal to leave your gun in the car, regardless of company policy, but right now I believe it would not be legal if the employer has a policy prohibiting it.

[Guest 270win]

You would be definitely legal in having a handgun unloaded in the trunk of your car...thus just POSSESSING and not having 'intent to go armed' on school property. I do this when I have business to take care of on school/university property in Tennessee. I unload and put it in the trunk before I get to the campus so that I am not handling the gun on school property....I usually pull off at say a store parking lot to discreetly do that.

Now as far as being an employee you could get fired for having an unloaded gun...but you can get fired for anything....it's your choice to break company policy...been there done that...live with what you think it is right. Do your best to be very discreet and don't tell any coworkers that you ever carry a gun or have a permit..don't talk about guns at work. I do this and it has helped me out a lot.

[Guest iamtwon]

Often debated topic. The gist of it seems to be:

- It's perfectly legal for you to keep gun in car.

- It's also perfectly legal for employer to terminate you for breaking its security rules (or for most any other reason that isn't discriminatory by federal definition).

- OS

I guess another question would be, could there be any criminal charges if I were to get made? say if I were to get pulled over leaving the garage on campus.

[TMMT]

Once you are in your vehicle and mobile, a traffic stop occurs the vehicle exception to the search warrant kicks in so absent probable cause for a warrantless search the officer would have no reason to go snooping around inside your car, fishing on a traffic stop unless you give consent to search, which you should NEVER give under any reasons no how, no way ever at all.

And Im telling you this as a LEO.

If the officer has reasonable suspicious that you are carrying a gun, he can separate you from the car and frisk you, then frisk the lunging area inside the car.

Notice I said frisk and not search.

If one is found, yes you could be arrested coming from a garage which I assume is school/hospital property, if the garage is owned by the city that's entirely another story.

[macville]

If the officer has reasonable suspicious that you are carrying a gun, he can separate you from the car and frisk you, then frisk the lunging area inside the car.

Notice I said frisk and not search.

I gotta ask...what the heck is the "lunging area inside the car"? And how do you "frisk" that? Do you mean scanning (looking through the window) into the passenger compartment?

Matthew

[Oh Shoot]

...

If one is found, yes you could be arrested coming from a garage which I assume is school/hospital property,...

So you give this part of the law no credence?:

"© (1) It is an offense for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any firearm, not used solely for instructional or school-sanctioned ceremonial purposes, in any public or private school building or bus, on any public or private school campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic field or any other property owned, used or operated by any board of education, school, college or university board of trustees, regents or directors for the administration of any public or private educational institution. It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm, if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle operated by the adult and is not handled by the adult, or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property."

- OS

[Guest kepano.van]

I just took a carry permit class this past weekend, and this is how it was explained in my class. You can only carry a gun on school (any level, from preschool up to college) grounds as long as you don't handle the weapon: BUT that's for pick up and drop off someone only, anything else is illegal.

[Oh Shoot]

I just took a carry permit class this past weekend, and this is how it was explained in my class. You can only carry a gun on school (any level, from preschool up to college) grounds as long as you don't handle the weapon: BUT that's for pick up and drop off someone only, anything else is illegal.

Well, for a loaded firearm in vehicle, for which a HCP must be had to be legal, he's right. However, there are two situations whereby firearms are legal in a vehicle on school grounds.

There are TWO sections in the schools statute 39-17-1309.

b-1 is in regard to "intent to go armed".

Defense is having an HCP and not handling gun while dropping off/picking up passengers. Presumption is that weapon is loaded, seems.

Penalty is a felony.

c-1 is exactly same wording but without "intent to go armed"

Defense is simply leaving non-handled weapon in vehicle by non-student adult. Presumption is that gun is unloaded as per legal car carry for anyone.

Penalty is a misdemeanor.

This is as per the law.

It does not prevent your employer from making its own rules and abiding by them, including firing you for non-compliance. However, your employer cannot have you charged with a criminal violation.

- OS

[TMMT]

OhShoot you answered your own question, the distinction is loaded vs unloaded.

The term "intent to go armed" is a legal distinction used to separate those who intend to arm themselves vs. those who are transporting an arm.

[Oh Shoot]

OhShoot you answered your own question, the distinction is loaded vs unloaded.

The term "intent to go armed" is a legal distinction used to separate those who intend to arm themselves vs. those who are transporting an arm.

Yep, agree, although I wasn't really asking a question, just pointing out the differences in the two parts of the statute.

The most unfair part of the second part is "non-student adult". So students, of any age, can't legally have an unloaded weapon in the car.

Part time students count, like adult education courses taken at night, etc.?

It's just another asinine statute. Why should students who are old enough to own a firearm not allowed to possess them on equal basis of someone who is the same age but not a student. Absurd.

Of course, students may be expelled from Tn colleges for possessing firearms legally under the law, just as employers may fire folks who also are not in violation of the law. Also absurd.

- OS

Edited October 13, 2009 by OhShoot
extended rant

[TMMT]

In all my years of LE I have never encountered more poorly worded statutes, not just gun statutes mind you but general criminal codes that were so poorly written and worded as I have, here in Tennessee.

You think the gun laws are messed up you should spend the day waist deep in the Tennessee Revenue Codes.

[Oh Shoot]

....

You think the gun laws are messed up you should spend the day waist deep in the Tennessee Revenue Codes.

Thanks, but would likely opt for unneeded oral surgery instead.

- OS

[Guest iamtwon]

...if for any reason it was made known and could be proved to police by any legal means that I have a firearm in my own vehicle, be it attended or unattended, I may be arrested in violation of 39-17-1309, but it is my understanding that I am protected by the exception stated in 39-17-1309©.

Here's how I read it:

all stipulations must be met for the exception to apply.

It is not an offense under this subsection © for a nonstudent adult to possess a firearm,

1. if the firearm is contained within a private vehicle

2. [the vehicle is] operated by the adult

3. and [the gun] is not handled by the adult,

4. or by any other person acting with the expressed or implied consent of the adult, while the vehicle is on school property.

OK, so it's extremely poorly worded and open to interpretation that could potentially make me a felon.

Look at 2. [the vehicle is] operated by the adult

Does this mean the car has to be "in operation" at the time of discovery of the firearm or does this mean that I need be the only operator of the vehicle.

side note:

Q - Am I obligated to tell the officer who pulls me over for a traffic violation that I am armed when he asks? I don't plan on divulging this information if I am stopped at work. I do know that he will see I have an HCP. But why fire myself by telling him I am armed at the time.

A -

You are not obligated under Tennessee law to volunteer this information, but you are required to answer truthfully if the LEO asks, and to provide your HCP card for examination. The officer may also, at his discretion, disarm you during the duration of the traffic stop or investigation.

Bear in mind that your DL number and your HCP number are the same, and your HCP status will come up when your DL is run.

IMO, it sets a cooperative, non-confrontational tone to let the LEO know up front that you are a HCP holder and that you are armed (and let them know in that order). Most LEO's will appreciate your honesty, and become more comfortable thereafter in handling the stop or whatever it is.

-Thanks 56FordGuy

Edited October 14, 2009 by iamtwon

[56FordGuy]

side note:

Am I obligated to tell the officer who pulls me over for a traffic violation that I am armed when he asks? I don't plan on divulging this information if I am stopped at work. I do know that he will see I have an HCP. But why fire myself by telling him I am armed at the time.

[/font]

Short answer: If he asks, then yes. There have been several discussions on informing vs not before the officer asks.

[TMMT]

Look at 2. [the vehicle is] operated by the adult

Does this mean the car has to be "in operation" at the time of discovery of the firearm or does this mean that I need be the only operator of the vehicle.

The area of the law where this language has been beaten to death and hashed over again and again in courts is the DUI laws and the application of those terms in similar cases.

Courts have long held that you exercise control over a vehicle if you have at your immediate disposal the ability to exercise control with the intent to do so.

What this means is that if its your car and you are in possession of the car keys and its in the immediate area and it can be proven that you drove it there or intend to drive away in it, then you are in control of that vehicle.

[Guest 270win]

This is why I leave my handgun UNLOADED in the trunk to avoid the 'intent to go armed' part before I go on school property to conduct any school business and park my vehicle. I am not dropping off or picking up passengers...so I can't really according to my understanding of the law...leave it in there loaded...so I just unload it in a parking lot and put it in the trunk. Then I don't have intent to go armed and I am not handling it when I am on school property...thus the handgun is possessed by me in my vehicle...and I am within the exception that allows me to just possess...so I can't be charged with the felony OR misdemeanor. Yes is is messed up the way it is written...but you have to read closely. If I was dropping off or picking up passengers...I could carry my handgun on me loaded as long as I stayed in the car..or have it in the glovebox loaded and still have intent to go armed...but I don't drop off passengers when I go to schools...I just go there for work purposes.

[Guest iamtwon]

Where does the law say anything about dropping anyone off?

Do you believe the car has to be running and you in the driver's seat for the exception to pertain to you? Which implies picking up and dropping off I'd imagine.

I'll be reading some DUI cases, but it sure seems that it would be assumed that I am sole "adult operator" of my vehicle regardless of my location on campus/hospital property.

[Fallguy]

Where does the law say anything about dropping anyone off?

Here

39-17-1310 Affirmative defense to carrying weapons on school property.

It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under § 39-17-1309(a)-(d) that the person's behavior was in strict compliance with the requirements of one (1) of the following classifications:

(4)

A person entering the property for the sole purpose of delivering or picking up passengers and who does not remove, utilize or allow to be removed or utilized any weapon from the vehicle.

[Guest iamtwon]

What's the difference between affirmative defense and an exception?

Anyone got a good criminal defense lawyer they'd like to recommend?

[TMMT]

An affirmative defense claim is basically a reason or justification for doing what you did.

An exception is basically an exemption to a rule or law, like an LEO being exempt from hand gun carry laws.