(M-4's) Weapons failed US troops during Afghan firefight

[TMMT]

The Woodward Report - The New Conservative Website

[Kelemvor]

PISTONS

[Guest Jcochran88]

PISTONS

That was what I was wondering?

[First Strike]

They need the HK 416. M16's And M4's have always done this and they always will.

[Daniel]

Strike Force

[Daniel]

The platoon-sized unit of U.S. soldiers and about two dozen Afghan troops was shooting back with such intensity the barrels on their weapons turned white hot.

I find this story to be lacking in facts.

[Guest jimdigriz]

The Woodward Report - The New Conservative Website

Here's a related article:

Defense Tech: M4 Comes in Last Place in Dust Test

>1% failures!

[Daniel]

"My weapon was overheating," McKaig said, according to Cubbison's report. "I had shot about 12 magazines by this point already and it had only been about a half hour or so into the fight. I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

smart move.

Cpl. Jason Bogar fired approximately 600 rounds from his M-249 before the weapon overheated and jammed the weapon.

Firing 600 rounds without a barrel change will overheat the weapon but it wont jam it to my knowledge... melt your barrel maybe.

[Kegger]

M249s jam at around 500 quite often if you cook all the CLP off. Which can happen with heavy sustained fire.

Gotta keep 'em oiled.

[Guest Marine03]

249's jam at 5 rounds unless they're well lubricated. We would pour oil on them to keep them functioning. If you got 500 rounds without jamming you were lucky.

Now 240's almost never jammed.

[TMMT]

Plasma Rifles...

[wjh2657]

In 1970-1971 I found myself attached to 5th ARVN. My host S-2 issued me a AK-47 with folding stock. I never regretted it for the next 18 months. It may not have been pretty or super accurate but it sure was reliable! I couldn't say the same for the M-16s my buddies were carrying. Design (as issued to military) has had flaws from the beginning. I have been told that other, civilian, models have ironed out the problems but I wasn't overjoyed with the issue arm. Highly machined intricate arms have never proven themselves well in combat. A certain amount of "slop" has always been needed in field weapons.

[Daniel]

smart move.

Firing 600 rounds without a barrel change will overheat the weapon but it wont jam it to my knowledge... melt your barrel maybe.

M249s jam at around 500 quite often if you cook all the CLP off. Which can happen with heavy sustained fire.

Gotta keep 'em oiled.

249's jam at 5 rounds unless they're well lubricated. We would pour oil on them to keep them functioning. If you got 500 rounds without jamming you were lucky.

Now 240's almost never jammed.

I guess I kept mine well lubed.

[poak]

This story has since been seen to be grossly unsubstantiated.

An M4/M16's barrel steel would completely melt before it goes white hot.

Furthermore, I don't care what you're using (piston driven, SCARs, XM8s, 416s, WHATEVER) if you try to use a lightweight assault weapon as a Squad Automatic Weapon, and attempt to lay down heavy suppressive fire with it as opposed to short, controled, and well aimed fire (as per that class of weapons intended purpose), bad things WILL happen.

[Guest .45]

"....I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

brilliant.

[Guest .45]

here's a thread from 10-8, w/some very valid points & good info...

10-8 Forums: M4 Failing Our Troops?

also, while we're on the topic of the M4's shortcomings, how 'bout this...? thoughts?

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

.45

[creeky]

"....I couldn't charge my weapon and put another round in because it was too hot, so I got mad and threw my weapon down."

I've never been under fire, much less been in a situation where a position I was trying to hold was endanger of being over run. I would imagine it is a very high stress environment to say the least, where emotions would be running really high.

Can't say what I would do.

Back to the M-4's... I'd be interested in reading more about what happened when the final report is issued.

Edited October 14, 2009 by creeky

[poak]

here's a thread from 10-8, w/some very valid points & good info...

10-8 Forums: M4 Failing Our Troops?

also, while we're on the topic of the M4's shortcomings, how 'bout this...? thoughts?

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2008Intl/Roberts.pdf

.45

I didn't read the whole .pdf report, but I'm not sure I see completely eye-to-eye with some of that guys logic... like this:

DOD replaces computer hardware and software every 3 or 4 years, yet does not offer the same

type of incremental improvements for small arms weapons and ammunition, despite similar costs.

I think a small arms to IT analogy is kind of ridiculous...

[Daniel]

I've never been under fire, much less been in a situation where a position I was trying to hold was endanger of being over run. I would imagine it is a very high stress environment to say the least, where emotions would be running really high.

Can't say what I would do.

Back to the M-4's... I'd be interested in reading more about what happened when the final report is issued.

Well I have and I sure as hell wouldnt throw my weapon to the ground.

[Daniel]

I didn't read the whole .pdf report, but I'm not sure I see completely eye-to-eye with some of that guys logic... like this:

I think a small arms to IT analogy is kind of ridiculous...

He was saying that they wait years and years to do huge leaps in small arms tech versus smaller incremental updates.

[poak]

He was saying that they wait years and years to do huge leaps in small arms tech versus smaller incremental updates.

Yeah, I picked up on that, I just thought it was a poorly constructed analogy.

[Guest .45]

Yeah, I picked up on that, I just thought it was a poorly constructed analogy.

poor analogies aside, his point is that a change needs to be made regarding the currently issued small arms...

to get hung up on wording is to miss the point.

.45

[Tobashadow]

Part of the reason i chose the SKS/AK range of arms instead of the AR (i do want one tho) is because of a film i seen years ago that had a military guy from Russia and a military guy from the US comparing the two for dust conditions.

They buried the M16 in sand and the US guy pulled it out dropped the mag shook it out and charged it a few times and had a couple no feeds but he made it thru the mag with a bit of trouble.

The Russian hand poured sand down the barrel and in the action on the AK and buried it. Pulled it out pointed it down and shook it, laid it down on the ground and then whipped out what he called his field cleaning kit with one hand and pissed on it. It fired all 30 rounds like it was new.

The AR's in my book are nice accurate weapons far beyond what the AK series can put out in fit and finish. But if it don't fire when its dirty, then its nothing more then a ball bat.

I wonder how many M14's they have on the shelf?

Heavy and bulky but they will take a licking and the round is much stronger in my book.

[Daniel]

I fired several captured Iraqi AKs. I do not recall making it through a single mag without some kind of malfunction.

[poak]

I fired several captured Iraqi AKs. I do not recall making it through a single mag without some kind of malfunction.

You see, this is what bothers me the most about everyone claiming how shoddy the M16/M4 family is...

You have all these bloggers and gun rag journalists talking about the next great thing, and claiming that they've talked to SO many soldiers who had failure after failure in the battle field, and that <insert next-gen weapon offering> is the only answer to the problem.

MEANWHILE, you've got guys like Daniel that have been to the sandbox and back, used their weapons, and never had them turn into paper weights.

Personally, I have yet to talk to a soldier or Marine returning from a deployment that had notable issues w/ their weapon.

Seems the only people finding sources for these failures are journalists and bloggers (and all the geniuses on arfcom).