Teacher sues for right to pack heat at school...in Oregon

[Guest bulletproof]

Kids will be kids but this crap about kids shooting other kids has got to stop, train your crumb diggers or keep the firearms under lock and key with you being the only person having access to them. Sorry, pet peeve. If your child gets hurt or hurts someone with your firearm it is your responsibility no one else's.

Someone once wrote on one of these sites that you need to remove the "magic" of the gun from them, I tried it. My grandchildren used to come running every time I would go to clean my carry, I tried to explain to them that is was nothing for them to mess with and they still came running until I unloaded my carry and (after quadruple checking it) handing it to my oldest told her to look at it feel it, she held it for a min and handed it back to me, same with my youngest. Now when I clean my guns they may come over to "check out" my cleaning kit (you have to understand, I have one of those "rolly kits and they love the way it rolls up) but they don't even look twice at the gun. Next year I'm going to start them shooting.

I have always believed that in addition to parents teaching their kids there should also be gun education in all the schools and it should start at an early age. Of course that might make too much sense so I'm sure it will continue to be found in only a small percentage of schools.

[Guest jcoyle6]

I also think that firearm education should be a part of school programs. Instead of seeing posters like "DON'T LET GUNS RULE" or whatever maybe having an active shooting sports or something class for the younger kids would be nice. I didn't exactly grow up around guns. I knew my Dad had a bolt action 410 and a single shot .22. But he never kept ammo for either. Fortunately enough for me I met a guy who {re}introduced my to firearms and the rest is history. I also think that further training is needed for teachers is needed, but how to administer such a thing is way beyond my pay grade.

[Marswolf]

The schools and students are getting worse by the day. The students seem to have a twisted idea of reality. It can be blamed on eveything from video games to bad parenting to bullies.

I'll pick column "B" - bad parenting.

I think it's a good idea to have responsible trained stable adults in the schools with handguns. But they need to be adults, and trained, and stable. I know some teachers who may not fit any of those criterions.

[DaveTN]

I am not sure about this one being the father of three, I guess it would depend on the training she has had...it all sounds good.."lock them in the office" but if a raving idiot comes in, that may not be an option, and I would hate to think about her stray bullet killing some child... dunno bout this, I am on the fence about it...

Many parents have that concern. But in the wake of all the school shootings many Police Departments have changed their tactics on these types of shootings. Instead of trying to secure the scene and talk the shooter out, they have adopted a policy of immediately entering the building and engaging the shooter. This could cause others to be shot but the alternative is well documented in the death of many kids.

An active shooter in a building will have plenty of time to accomplish whatever he intends to do if the victims have to wait even 2 or 3 minutes for the Police to show up. Someone with the ability to stop the threat needs to be able to respond immediately.

Sad… but that’s the way it is.

[Guest canynracer]

Many parents have that concern. But in the wake of all the school shootings many Police Departments have changed their tactics on these types of shootings. Instead of trying to secure the scene and talk the shooter out, they have adopted a policy of immediately entering the building and engaging the shooter. This could cause others to be shot but the alternative is well documented in the death of many kids.

An active shooter in a building will have plenty of time to accomplish whatever he intends to do if the victims have to wait even 2 or 3 minutes for the Police to show up. Someone with the ability to stop the threat needs to be able to respond immediately.

Sad… but that’s the way it is.

I agree with that... BUT.....

some schools now have on campus officers that earn overtime, or work the 2nd job to keep schools safe...I know My kids go to Shelby county scools, both campuses (elementary, and middle) have uniformed, armed cops there.

again, I am on the fence, if she was specially trained for defending the kids, sure, but without knowing the training she had, I am assuming she is an average joe, that took the course, got her permit..and now wants to carry on campus...there are too many "what ifs" on this...like, a kids getting HER gun...

have they thought about the alternatives to keep both her and the school safe..

[Guest Boomhower]

Ok, I finally got around to reading all of this thread. Some very good thoughts in here. I agree with most of them. We need properly trained, stable minded people to be allowed to protect themselves, not only in schools, but in other prohibited settings as well. True, there are cops in schools, but not all of them. Just this year, in the school my mom teaches in, they no longer have a cop on duty. It is a middle school, but she teaches 7th and 8th grade courses. As with many schools, there are too many access points to count(8 that I can remember, maybe more). All of which I'm fairly sure are not locked during the day(It's been a few years since I've been there).

Now how can we answer this problem? I think we can all agree that we'd like to see more people doing more training (myself included). This would put more of us at ease with the growing amount of people aquireing HCP's. Do any of you think we could better this cause by joining efforts with our government to ease up on the restrictions of LEGAL HCP's with continued yearly education? Maybe requireing a set amount of course hours needed yearly on certain issues/subjects, and this would lift the ban on carrying in those restrictied areas. Now this would not affect those that do not want to further there knowledge. If it doesn't bother you to not be able to carry in certain places, then don't take the courses. But for those of us serious about not wanting to go unarmed period, then we'd have the option available to us.

I'm not sure how this would be accomplished, but there would have to be some kind of system set up that when you took a course, it was logged in with you HCP card that you keep on your person at all times. This way when you were stopped by a cop, they could run your HCP # thru the system, and all your yearly credit information would appear for their viewing pleasure. Surely this would put a lot more of the LE personal at ease, and maybe even make a few of them jealous.

But on the other hand this opens up our pockets to ther mercy of the states. You know they would want there fair share of the money made during these courses, the instructors would be required to maintain certain cridentials thru the state, and the state government would in the end decide how many course hours you would be required to take. This could become an overwhelming amount in the wrong hands.

I don't know. Just some of my thoughts that I wanted to get out of my head. What do you guys think?

[DaveTN]

I agree with that... BUT.....

some schools now have on campus officers that earn overtime, or work the 2nd job to keep schools safe...I know My kids go to Shelby county scools, both campuses (elementary, and middle) have uniformed, armed cops there.

again, I am on the fence, if she was specially trained for defending the kids, sure, but without knowing the training she had, I am assuming she is an average joe, that took the course, got her permit..and now wants to carry on campus...there are too many "what ifs" on this...like, a kids getting HER gun...

have they thought about the alternatives to keep both her and the school safe..

Like what alternatives? And I’m not arguing with you; this is a major problem that many are trying to come up with an answer to. But the fact is that the only way to stop a shooter is to stop his ability to shoot. Time is the problem; 2 or 3 minutes can mean a high body count.

Police are mostly reactive; not proactive. The department I was on put an Officer in each school. But if a shooter plans this out (as it appears most of them have); neutralizing that threat would be pretty easy, I don’t care how well trained the Officer is.

Here are some things that we know won’t work… gun control, metal detectors, searches. Most of these types of shooters are well aware that they are going to either die or spend the rest of their lives in prison; so legislation won’t matter.

In 1966 when Charles Whitman climbed the UT tower there were no policies in place for something like that. 41 years later and we still can’t prevent it, all we know is that the shooter will continue to shoot until he runs out of ammo or is killed.

No one wants to force teachers to carry guns and from what I understand most teachers don’t want to carry. But if a teacher wants to go through the proper training, keep it quiet, keep the weapon concealed and secured; I don’t see much better choices.

[DaveTN]

Ok, I finally got around to reading all of this thread. Some very good thoughts in here. I agree with most of them. We need properly trained, stable minded people to be allowed to protect themselves, not only in schools, but in other prohibited settings as well. True, there are cops in schools, but not all of them. Just this year, in the school my mom teaches in, they no longer have a cop on duty. It is a middle school, but she teaches 7th and 8th grade courses. As with many schools, there are too many access points to count(8 that I can remember, maybe more). All of which I'm fairly sure are not locked during the day(It's been a few years since I've been there).

Now how can we answer this problem? I think we can all agree that we'd like to see more people doing more training (myself included). This would put more of us at ease with the growing amount of people aquireing HCP's. Do any of you think we could better this cause by joining efforts with our government to ease up on the restrictions of LEGAL HCP's with continued yearly education? Maybe requireing a set amount of course hours needed yearly on certain issues/subjects, and this would lift the ban on carrying in those restrictied areas. Now this would not affect those that do not want to further there knowledge. If it doesn't bother you to not be able to carry in certain places, then don't take the courses. But for those of us serious about not wanting to go unarmed period, then we'd have the option available to us.

I'm not sure how this would be accomplished, but there would have to be some kind of system set up that when you took a course, it was logged in with you HCP card that you keep on your person at all times. This way when you were stopped by a cop, they could run your HCP # thru the system, and all your yearly credit information would appear for their viewing pleasure. Surely this would put a lot more of the LE personal at ease, and maybe even make a few of them jealous.

But on the other hand this opens up our pockets to ther mercy of the states. You know they would want there fair share of the money made during these courses, the instructors would be required to maintain certain cridentials thru the state, and the state government would in the end decide how many course hours you would be required to take. This could become an overwhelming amount in the wrong hands.

I don't know. Just some of my thoughts that I wanted to get out of my head. What do you guys think?

I don’t think that the training is a big issue to those that oppose guns in schools. You could be trained at Quantico Virginia or LAPD SWAT and still most people will not want you to be able to carry in a school. Some don’t want guns anywhere. I think many others don’t want to give up what little hope they have left. For years they have believed that if their kids were at school they were pretty safe. The recent schools shooting in this country have put more fear in people than any terrorist could ever hope for.

The problem is that we can’t do anything about the root cause.

[Guest canynracer]

Police are mostly reactive; not proactive. The department I was on put an Officer in each school. But if a shooter plans this out (as it appears most of them have); neutralizing that threat would be pretty easy, I don’t care how well trained the Officer is.

......But if a teacher wants to go through the proper training, keep it quiet, keep the weapon concealed and secured; I don’t see much better choices.

I agree about the police thing...like I said, my kids have cops on campus...

proper training, keep it quiet, keep the weapon concealed and secured;

My thoughts would be different in this scenario...I am not saying everyone with a carry permit, but the teachers that beleive they should, or want to carry, should have MORE training to carry on campus...and maybe a locking desk (they make quick release overrides) that they can keep the gun in...or they MUST carry it concealed on their person so a kid cant steal it...I would feel better about it...

[Guest canynracer]

OK, I just read this article...it appears that it IS in fact legal to CC on the school grounds..but not for employess...if this is in fact the case..it is DUMB...so basically her ex (who she is afraid of) is allowed by law to walk on campus carrying, yet SHE is NOT allowed cause she works there...that is DUMB.........

"State law allows people with permits to carry concealed firearms into schools and other public buildings, but most school districts in the state have passed policies forbidding employees from doing so"

http://carryconcealed.net/news/Judge+won%27t+dismiss+teacher%27s+lawsuit-N260.html?pagenum=1&

[dralarms]

OK, I just read this article...it appears that it IS in fact legal to CC on the school grounds..but not for employess...if this is in fact the case..it is DUMB...so basically her ex (who she is afraid of) is allowed by law to walk on campus carrying, yet SHE is NOT allowed cause she works there...that is DUMB.........

"State law allows people with permits to carry concealed firearms into schools and other public buildings, but most school districts in the state have passed policies forbidding employees from doing so"

http://carryconcealed.net/news/Judge+won%27t+dismiss+teacher%27s+lawsuit-N260.html?pagenum=1&

:shake::shake: Now trhat is really stupidity at it's finest.

[Marswolf]

Lots of idiotic laws like that.

When I was on the library board, I made sure citizens could carry in the libraries in our county. But employees come under county employment rules and are forbidden to carry on the job. We had one situation where someone repeatedly intimidated one of our branch managers and she couldn't protect herself without risking her job. Totally stupid.

[Guest Boomhower]

....I didn't think we were allowed to carry INTO (ie: inside) schools?

[Guest bulletproof]

I think that is in Oregon....not here

[Guest canynracer]

It IS Oregon...dont do it here...I think they just shoot you here...lol

[Guest 270win]

It is very legal to carry a handgun in a school in Oregon, if you are licensed. Many people do not realize it is legal to carry a handgun in K-12 schools in some states and also more states college campuses. The teacher's school probably has a policy prohibiting her from carrying, thus she would not be breaking any laws but could be fired.

States off the top of my head that allow carry in K-12 school buildings are Alabama, California, Oregon, New Hampshire, Utah, Connecticut, Delaware, and Missouri. If you have a permit issued by a parish sheriff's department, you can also carry inside school buildings, both K-12 and college, in Louisiana. Parish permits are only good in the parish issued. In addition to the above states, I do know you can carry inside college campus buildings in Kentucky and Virginia. Again some schools may have a policy but in those states do not prohibit it by law.

Just FYI, Arkansas prohibits the possession of a handgun by those under 18, not 21. You have to be 21 to get a concealed handgun license in Arkansas. You can be 18 and have a handgun at home or carry when going to and from hunting or when on a journey.

[Guest Tombstone]

My vote (like it matters) is for 1. proper training 2. proper background checks (there has been child molesters found in our schools so something is NOT being done correctly) 3. absolute control (it's your firearm, it's your responsibility (meaning you keep it on you, not in your purse, not in your locker and not in your stupid desk) 4. remember, you are responsible for your bullets and may still be even if you are not the person holding your firearm. Kids will be kids but this crap about kids shooting other kids has got to stop,

I would have to say that I totally agree. But the training would have to be intense because of the potential tragedy that could take place. Along with the training there should be some in depth psychological evaluations as well. Only those that qualify would be able to carry. THen there should be a simple alarm system in each room so that if something does happen, the teacher can press the big red button and an alarm would sound; warning others of the situation and where it was taking place. THis would allow those out of danger to remain that way.

I realize that this wont happen because of the financial burden that the school districts would see from this. Its like at work, when they say safety first when they actually mean; hurry up and you better not get hurt.

[Guest db99wj]

My vote (like it matters) is for 1. proper training 2. proper background checks (there has been child molesters found in our schools so something is NOT being done correctly) 3. absolute control (it's your firearm, it's your responsibility (meaning you keep it on you, not in your purse, not in your locker and not in your stupid desk) 4. remember, you are responsible for your bullets and may still be even if you are not the person holding your firearm. Kids will be kids but this crap about kids shooting other kids has got to stop,

I would have to say that I totally agree. But the training would have to be intense because of the potential tragedy that could take place. Along with the training there should be some in depth psychological evaluations as well. Only those that qualify would be able to carry. THen there should be a simple alarm system in each room so that if something does happen, the teacher can press the big red button and an alarm would sound; warning others of the situation and where it was taking place. THis would allow those out of danger to remain that way.

I realize that this wont happen because of the financial burden that the school districts would see from this. Its like at work, when they say safety first when they actually mean; hurry up and you better not get hurt.

Like one of these?

[dralarms]

You can carry in a county courthouse unless it's posted, but not a courtroom.

How can this be when the court house is "government property" ?

[Marswolf]

How can this be when the court house is "government property" ?

You can carry in/on government property if it's state or county owned - unless it's posted.

Actually, you can carry in a courtroom as long as judicial proceedings are not in progress. TCA 39-17-1306. What is tricky is that you are prohibited from carrying any weapon prohibited by § 39-17-1302(a) during those proceedings. 39-17-1302(a) is that list of weapons that you can't carry in a park. It does not include handguns.

[Mike.357]

when Charles Whitman climbed the UT tower there were no policies in place for something like that

And wasn't Whitman pinned down or stopped by law abiding citizens who had rifles?

The politicos will never understand it. If the woman teacher wants to carry legally she ought to be able to do it. The fact that she is seeking a legal way to do it proves to me that she is not some wacko. If she was a wacko she would already be carrying. More than likely any trouble with her ex would take place in the parking lot and she does deserve the right to protect herself.

[DaveTN]

And wasn't Whitman pinned down or stopped by law abiding citizens who had rifles?

Well…. That depends on how you look at it. People did go home at get their guns and come back. Whitman was not pinned down; he wasn’t trying to go anywhere and knew he was going to die.

Four Police Officers and a civilian entered the tower to take down Whitman. Their efforts were hampered by friendly fire coming from the ground. Not exactly what I would point to as a glowing review for citizens with guns.

Whitman had killed 14 people and wounded 31 after shooting for 90 minutes. The body count could be as high today, but no way could it go on for 90 minutes.

[Guest db99wj]

Well, didn't turn out like many have hoped.

Teacher loses fight to take gun to class State court rejects argument she needed weapon for personal protection

Reuters

updated 7:32 a.m. CT, Mon., Nov. 12, 2007

PORTLAND, Oregon - An Oregon high school English teacher will not be allowed to carry her gun to school, a state circuit court ruled on Friday in a decision closely watched by both sides of the gun debate.

Shirley Katz, who has a legal permit to carry a concealed handgun, argued she needed the Glock semi-automatic pistol to protect herself from her ex-husband. She sued the school district when it told her carrying a gun was against a district policy prohibiting guns.

Circuit Judge G. Philip Arnold agreed with the district, saying "The District has a right to enforce this policy." he noted that employees "accept their jobs subject to, and knowing, the policy."

"We are pleased," said Dr. Phil Long, superintendent of the Medford School District. "This case was a distraction from our real mission, which is educating children."

The teacher had support from pro-gun rights groups. In light of multiple school shootings, some gun advocates have argued that teachers, and maybe even students, should be armed to prevent such tragedies in the future.

In April, a student shot dead 32 people at Virginia Tech University and earlier this week a gun-wielding student killed eight people at a high school in Finland.

"I was not particularly surprised," said Kevin Starrett, executive director of the Oregon Firearms Federation, whose group paid the teacher's legal bills and is discussing an appeal.

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