Teacher sues for right to pack heat at school...in Oregon

[Guest db99wj]

In today's Memphis, Commercial Appeal, it is an AP story.

Teacher sues for right to pack heat at school

By By Jeff Barnard

Associated Press

Tuesday, October 9, 2007

MEDFORD, Ore. -- High school English teacher Shirley Katz insists she needs to take her pistol with her to work because she fears her ex-husband could show up and try to harm her. She's also worried about a Columbine-style attack.

But Katz's district has barred teachers from bringing guns to school, so she is challenging the ban as unlawful, since Oregon is among states that allow people with a permit to carry concealed weapons into public buildings.

"This is primarily about my Second Amendment right and Oregon law and the simple fact that I know it is my right to carry that gun," said Katz, 44, sitting at the kitchen table of her home outside this city of 74,000.

"I have that (concealed weapons) permit. I refuse to let my ex-husband bully me. And I am not going to let the school board bully me, either."

In Oregon, a sheriff can grant a concealed weapons permit to anyone whose criminal record is clean and who completes a gun safety course.

Thirty-eight states, along with the District of Columbia, prohibit people from taking guns to school, according to the National Council of State Legislatures. But it's unclear how many offer an exemption for people holding concealed-weapons permits.

Superintendent Phil Long insists employees and students are safer without guns on campus at South Medford High School, where Katz teaches. The district plans to make that argument when the case comes before a judge on Thursday.

Katz's request appears to be rare. School security consultant Ken Trump, president of National School Safety and Security Services in Cleveland, said he has never heard of a similar case while working in 45 states.

Katz won't say whether she has ever taken her 9 mm Glock pistol to school, but she practices with it regularly and has thought about what she would do if she had to confront a gunman. She would be sure students were locked in nearby offices out of the line of fire, and she would be ready with her pistol.

"Our safety plan at our school now is that if somebody threatening comes in, you try to avoid eye contact, and do whatever they say, and that is not acceptable anymore," she said.

[Marswolf]

Finally a teacher with some sense. Too bad the school board doesn't have any.

[saintsfanbrian]

Why do I think the school is going to start doing "random" searches of teachers and student vehicles.

[Branket]

Katz won't say whether she has ever taken her 9 mm Glock pistol to school...

Finally a teacher with some sense.

Something isn't right here....

[Guest db99wj]

Why do I think the school is going to start doing "random" searches of teachers and student vehicles.

I hope you are wrong, but I have the same feeling.

[SkWaShDeM]

Why do I think the school is going to start doing "random" searches of teachers and student vehicles.

If they'd done those when I was in high school... I don't think more than 20% of the 175 people or so in my senior class would have graduated. Assuming they had any faculty left on staff after the searches...

[Guest canynracer]

I am not sure about this one being the father of three, I guess it would depend on the training she has had...it all sounds good.."lock them in the office" but if a raving idiot comes in, that may not be an option, and I would hate to think about her stray bullet killing some child... dunno bout this, I am on the fence about it...

[saintsfanbrian]

Canynracer, the possibility of her stray bullet killing some child is better in my opinion than the Columbine incident, the Virginia Tech incident or countless other incidents where some yahoo went on a spree and took out dozens of people. If one person had been armed, many more may have been saved.

[Guest canynracer]

Canynracer, the possibility of her stray bullet killing some child is better in my opinion than the Columbine incident, the Virginia Tech incident or countless other incidents where some yahoo went on a spree and took out dozens of people. If one person had been armed, many more may have been saved.

I do understand that, like I said, without knowing her training or background, I am still on the fence....My daughters schools have off duty cops on campus that get paid by the school..it also boils down to whether or not this lady understands that shooting her ex is one thing, but shooting a 12 yr old is a different thing entirely...I am not against it, but I am not necessarily for it either, at least without knowing the facts...

On the same hand, she has created enough publicity now that if she does win the case, the kids now know she is armed...who is to say that the kid doesnt steal her gun...I know when I was young my friends did alot of crap...including stealing a teachers purse.

I am not saying she shouldnt arm herself against her ex...or protect herself, but I am also not sure having a gun in her purse in a classroom is the best bet either. Maybe the school should take her concerns to heart and have security measures in place to ease her concern. That route is a hell of alot cheaper than a lawsuit from her, or a parent that was wounded cause of a prank, or somebody stealing her purse.

[dralarms]

If all schools had teachers and admins armed then there would be less school shootings. If ya ask me (and you didn't) we should be able to carry any where we d well please. I worked for 3 days in a county sheriffs office before someone told me the sheriff would appreciate it if I would go lock my firearm up since they have trustees walking around:eek:. I'm sure they know the law but no one even suggested I was breaking the law (didn't know it at the time), shoot me and a deputy even were comparing carry methods and types of guns.

I can understand not carrying into a courthouse or jail but if I have offical business (which I do more often than not) in a county building why do I have to become a victim before going in?

[Marswolf]

You can carry in a county courthouse unless it's posted, but not a courtroom.

[Guest canynracer]

why is a courthouse or jail any different than a school? they dont allow them (in jail especially) because the inmates can (and probably will) take them from you. School is no different, Kids are smart, if they want it, they will steal it. Have you seen some of the kids now a days? they are HUGE...my little brother is 15, he is 6'3" 220 and a linebacker...his best friend is a nutcase that is a amatuer fighter in MMA. Even though they are big, and in some cases nuts, do I trust an amatuer teacher to arm herself? maybe pepper spray, taser, or something else, but if she is gonna be packin a gun, she should have extensive training before being allowed to "protect" a class of children.

Like I said, I dont know if we know enough about her background or training. She may be so over paranoid that an upset kid walking toward her carrying a pencil (in a non threatening manner) is a threat on her life, she shoots him and kills him, the rest of the kids are traumatized....I would not feel comfortable with my kids in her class, or in a class next to hers for that matter unless I knew her background.

Once again, I am not against it, I see the pros and the cons...and I am sure my post will cause a lot of you to freak out, but it is my opinion, and yes, I am a gun owner and will be carrying (if it ever gets here) and I do agree, I should be able to carry on campus, but I am not there all day either, I drop off and pick up.

honestly, and think HONESTLY...do you feel like you are threatend enough in an elementary school to need to carry a gun?

I think they should lighten up on colleges, and even high school events (football games and such) but K-8th should remain...hell I cant even think of a time that I thought "Hmmm, I have a parent conference with my 6yrd olds teacher, maybe I should be packing..."

But then again, I grew up in an area that it is near impossible to carry unless you are a LEO or Sly Stallone....

annnnyway, its just my opinion...feel free to attack...LOL:nervous:

[Guest db99wj]

honestly, and think HONESTLY...do you feel like you are threatend enough in an elementary school to need to carry a gun?

I think they should lighten up on colleges, and even high school events (football games and such) but K-8th should remain...hell I cant even think of a time that I thought "Hmmm, I have a parent conference with my 6yrd olds teacher, maybe I should be packing..."

The incident below happened in 1998, across the river in Northwest Arkansas, These kids were 11 and 13.

Also here is another link to school shootings, http://www.keystosaferschools.com/Map_School_Shootings.htm#jon Seems from the site above, that 10-14 year olds are the ones you got to watch. That age group covers from 5th grade up to about 9th grade (elementary and middle school) , I believe.

5 dead, 11 wounded in Arkansas school shooting

In this story:

March 24, 1998

Web posted at: 11:06 p.m. EST (0406 GMT)

JONESBORO, Arkansas (CNN) -- Four middle school girls and a teacher were killed and 11 people were wounded Tuesday when two heavily armed boys in full camouflage gear opened fire on their classmates and teachers during a false fire alarm.

The Craighead County coroner's office identified the dead students as Natalie Brooks, Paige Ann Herring, and Stephanie Johnson, all 12, and Brittheny R. Varner, 11. Tuesday night, teacher Shannon Wright, 32, died after surgery for wounds to her chest and abdomen, Coroner Toby Emerson said.

Police did not offer a motive, but a classmate said one of the suspects had recently broken up with his girlfriend.

"He told me after seventh period (Monday) that he was never going to see me again and I wouldn't be able to see him again because he was going to run away," said Jennifer Nightingale. She did not say if any of the victims was the former girlfriend.

Nine of the wounded were female, including another teacher, Sara Thetford, who was listed in critical condition following surgery.

Five wounded girls were admitted to St. Bernards Regional Medical Center in stable condition. Three girls and one boy were treated and released. The wounded students were 11 to 13 years old.

State police said an 11th person was wounded but was not treated at the hospital. They did not have any more details.

The suspects, who are cousins, ages 11 and 13, were caught by police near Westside Middle School shortly after the shooting. A third boy who allegedly pulled the fire alarm was still being sought.

"Someone pulled the fire alarm inside and they went outside, and two people in camouflage clothing started shooting," said Connie Tolbert, a secretary.

"We thought it was just firecrackers," said one student, Brandy George. "I saw one of my teachers get shot. I started running towards the gym."

'We had children lying everywhere'

Karen Pate, a parent volunteer, was in the school gym when the fire alarm went off just after sixth-graders had finished lunch and returned to their classrooms. She ran outside and "saw girls falling to the ground."

"I helped one teacher who had been shot in the abdomen get out of there where she could lie down and we could start medical attention," Pate said. "Another student had got shot in the leg. As soon as she got hit, she couldn't walk and she fell into the doorway."

Authorities said as many as 27 shots were fired, and as their classmates fell bleeding, the other children ran back inside the school, screaming and crying.

"We had children lying everywhere," said paramedic Charles Jones. "They had all been shot."

Sheriff Dale Haas, who wept when he reported the shootings to the media, said men working on a new school building spotted the suspects and told police, who captured them as they fled through a wooded area nearby.

The boys had handguns and rifles, including a high-powered 30.06 hunting rifle. A white van was found about a half-mile from the school with guns and ammunition in it. It wasn't immediately clear if the vehicle was related to the shootings. The boys were running in the direction of the van when they were caught, investigators said.

Officer Terry McNatt said the boys offered no resistance when they were captured. The boys, who were both students at the school, were being held at the county jail, where they were scheduled for court appearances Wednesday morning.

'This happens somewhere else'

The school was besieged by police, emergency personnel, media and parents after word of the shootings spread, and those who live in the area were unanimous in their shock and disbelief.

"This happens somewhere else," said Ralph Lee, the mayor of neighboring Bono, Arkansas, where many of the students live. "It doesn't happen in Jonesboro, Arkansas."

"You don't expect this to happen," said a bewildered young man. "You think Little Rock or Memphis, not little west side of Jonesboro."

"We're not gonna get over this in a day or two," said a woman who worked at the school. "It's gonna hurt us."

The school of about 250 sixth- and seventh-graders is on the northwest side of Jonesboro, a city of 51,200 in northeastern Arkansas. It is about 130 miles northeast of Little Rock.

President Clinton, on a visit to Kampala, Uganda, said in a statement that he and the first lady were "deeply shocked and heartbroken."

"We don't know now, and we may never fully understand, what could have driven two youths to deliberately shoot into a crowd," he said. "Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims, their families and the entire Jonesboro community."

No charges filed yet

Gov. Mike Huckabee said he was angry, as a parent, that such a tragedy could happen at a public school.

"It makes me angry not so much at individual children that have done it as much as angry at a world in which such a thing can happen," he said.

No charges have been filed against the boys.

Because of their age, they cannot be prosecuted as adults or held in custody beyond their 21st birthday under Arkansas law, officials said.

If they are charged, they would appear before a juvenile court judge who would decide whether they are delinquent and whether they should be detained, according to Arkansas Attorney General Winston Bryant.

If they are held in custody, the decision would have to be reviewed every two years until they are 21.

Arkansas law does not prohibit minors from possessing shotguns or rifles, but it does bar people younger than 21 from possessing handguns. Other laws prohibit anyone from possessing a gun on public property or with criminal intent.

It was at least the third fatal shooting rampage in a U.S. school in the past five months, and Huckabee said, "I don't know that there's anything, quite honestly, that we can absolutely do to guarantee" the safety of people in schools.

The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[Guest canynracer]

I am not going to doubt that there is bad everywhere...lol...sometimes things do happen...these kids were leaving there classrooms when the were shot by the others...how would a teacher been able to stop this? even the teachers were saying kids were just falling...they didnt know...the boys walked away...(probably out of ammo) and at the end of the article..."Arkansas law does not prohibit minors from possessing shotguns or rifles, but it does bar people younger than 21 from possessing handguns. Other laws prohibit anyone from possessing a gun on public property or with criminal intent. "

that is a problem all in itself...

just like the off duty 20yr old cop that went into a party and started shooting...should we be able to fire on an officer now cause they have the "potential"? ummm I think not.

you cant show one story and say that if a teacher was armed it would not have happened.

[Marswolf]

Hold it folks!

She doesn't want a gun because she is afraid of the kids.

High school English teacher Shirley Katz insists she needs to take her pistol with her to work because she fears her ex-husband could show up and try to harm her.

That sounds like a possibility that can not be ignored. Either the school system needs to let her protect herself, or they need to provide the protection themselves.

[Guest canynracer]

I ABSOLUTLEY agree, she SHOULD have it for that..but, the part I am not sure about is whether or not she needs to carry it in her classroom....maybe keep it in a locker? dunno the answer here just not comfortable with my kids teacher having a loaded handgun in the classroom...

[Guest db99wj]

My point was geared toward your comment

...do you feel like you are threatend enough in an elementary school to need to carry a gun?

it is not necessarily high school kids that we have to watch out for, it is the5th through 8th graders that are nuts....freakin puberty:D

But as marswolf stated, this story is about the teacher afraid of her ex.

On a side note, nothing to do with anyone's comments above this comment in the originial story, "Our safety plan at our school now is that if somebody threatening comes in, you try to avoid eye contact, and do whatever they say...." Great plan:rolleyes:

[Guest db99wj]

I ABSOLUTLEY agree, she SHOULD have it for that..but, the part I am not sure about is whether or not she needs to carry it in her classroom....maybe keep it in a locker? dunno the answer here just not comfortable with my kids teacher having a loaded handgun in the classroom...

I've got a kindergartner and a 3rd grader, not sure whether or not I would want their teachers armed or not, especially if they only have the minimum amount of training for a permit;)

[saintsfanbrian]

I ABSOLUTLEY agree, she SHOULD have it for that..but, the part I am not sure about is whether or not she needs to carry it in her classroom....maybe keep it in a locker? dunno the answer here just not comfortable with my kids teacher having a loaded handgun in the classroom...

What good will it do in her locker when her ex breaks in to her classroom? If she cannot have it on her to protect herself, is the school going to take COMPLETE responsibility if her husband comes in and starts swinging, shooting, etc?

We don't know the entire story, but I would bet it was a very messy divorce. I would imagine there is a lot of animosity there and I would imagine that she "fears for her safety" every where she goes.

Should she have more training than the limited amount in a carry class? Probably, but should she not be able to defend herself because she doesn't?

Sorry, I think more people should be allowed to carry in more places to curb incidents like Columbine, Jonesboro, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin, Ohio, etc. As long as people are gathered, people should be allowed to protect themselves.

P.S. - My children's teacher has a loaded handgun in the classroom, the lunch room, the play ground etc.

Ah, you gotta love home school!!!!

[dralarms]

P.S. - My children's teacher has a loaded handgun in the classroom, the lunch room, the play ground etc.

Knowing you are in Tn I about had a cow until I saw the home school. Very good.

I an not saying that every stupid teacher (and yes if you are in Tn you know what I am talking about) should be going around armed. All I am saying is that properly trained people should not be restricted as to where we are allowed to carry.

I worked for 5 hrs today on school property with 3 firearms in the truck and no one got shot. If I had it on my hip no one would have gotten shot. I carry it for protection not aggression there is a big difference. I can tell you I was always within 25 ft of my firearm and if something was to have happened I would have tried my best to protect the children.

My vote (like it matters) is for 1. proper training 2. proper background checks (there has been child molesters found in our schools so something is NOT being done correctly) 3. absolute control (it's your firearm, it's your responsibility (meaning you keep it on you, not in your purse, not in your locker and not in your stupid desk) 4. remember, you are responsible for your bullets and may still be even if you are not the person holding your firearm. Kids will be kids but this crap about kids shooting other kids has got to stop, train your crumb diggers or keep the firearms under lock and key with you being the only person having access to them. Sorry, pet peeve. If your child gets hurt or hurts someone with your firearm it is your responsibility no one else's.

Someone once wrote on one of these sites that you need to remove the "magic" of the gun from them, I tried it. My grandchildren used to come running every time I would go to clean my carry, I tried to explain to them that is was nothing for them to mess with and they still came running until I unloaded my carry and (after quadruple checking it) handing it to my oldest told her to look at it feel it, she held it for a min and handed it back to me, same with my youngest. Now when I clean my guns they may come over to "check out" my cleaning kit (you have to understand, I have one of those "rolly kits and they love the way it rolls up) but they don't even look twice at the gun. Next year I'm going to start them shooting.

[Guest canynracer]

I've got a kindergartner and a 3rd grader, not sure whether or not I would want them armed or not, especially if they only have the minimum amount of training for a permit;)

umm... huh? you lost me...LOL

[Guest canynracer]

What good will it do in her locker when her ex breaks in to her classroom? If she cannot have it on her to protect herself, is the school going to take COMPLETE responsibility if her husband comes in and starts swinging, shooting, etc?

We don't know the entire story, but I would bet it was a very messy divorce. I would imagine there is a lot of animosity there and I would imagine that she "fears for her safety" every where she goes.

Should she have more training than the limited amount in a carry class? Probably, but should she not be able to defend herself because she doesn't?

Sorry, I think more people should be allowed to carry in more places to curb incidents like Columbine, Jonesboro, Virginia Tech, Wisconsin, Ohio, etc. As long as people are gathered, people should be allowed to protect themselves.

P.S. - My children's teacher has a loaded handgun in the classroom, the lunch room, the play ground etc.

Ah, you gotta love home school!!!!

Like I said, without knowing the facts and her background....and also, if he is THAT dangerous, the school and local law should take steps to make sure that doesnt happen....if he breaks into the classroom swinging and such, the kids are going to FREAK out, that kind of chaos, and the raving lunatic could be VERY good cause for a stray bullet striking an innocent child that probably would not have been hurt by him, cause he is after her...like i said before, I dont know the facts, or the background on the ex thing....

oh and LMAO on the home school thing!!

[Guest db99wj]

umm... huh? you lost me...LOL

I was referring to this thread, http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2438

[Guest canynracer]

I was referring to this thread, http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2438

ROFL!!! I think I peed a little.....OMG, you are gonna stir THAT one back up??? I give up!!!

[Guest NELSON]

To be honest, this is the reson I am second guessing going into education. I will be graduating in May with a degree in Agriculture Education. I have also been looking into LE. The schools and students are getting worse by the day. The students seem to have a twisted idea of reality. It can be blamed on eveything from video games to bad parenting to bullies. Either way you look at it the evidence is there. I have been to a few schools that have A resource officer. The high school I attended has ONE officer and the school has nearly 1500 students. These kids are not stupid, if they want to shoot the school up they know that they only have one person in the school with a gun.

I do agree that if a teacher wants to carry in the school they need to be trained. I would have no problem going to a defensive pistol in-service. The idea of carrying by teachers has become a hot topic in several of my education classes and I get the pleasure of being the key-note speaker. I think alot of my fellow students were suprised when I told them that they did not need to have a gun. They simply do not have the ability and experience to handle a firearm, in this type of setting.

If carrying were an option in a school. I would be the first one to sign up. I think the most important thing is that the teachers would have to be required to Conceal the firarm on them at all times. There does not need to be a gun in the teachers desk or purse where it is accessable to the students.

Will it ever happen? Not likely. Should it happen? Something has to change but I think this battle is much like the outcry for a national carry permit.