Handgun Carry Liability Insurance

[PC7]

I’ve heard that handgun carry liability insurance is available in Tennessee. Does anyone have any info on this (cost, companies, etc)? Also, what are your thoughts on this?

[Guest cowboy20th]

This issue was brought up in my HCP class (Mark did a good job at Guns and Leather by the way). Tennessee USED to require with a permit you have liability insurance. But the insurance turned out to just protect the state not your personally. I am not 100% that was it, but basically the insurance did not protect you so the state stopped requiring it.

I am positive you can buy personal liability insurance. I actually know somebody with this, they got it to protect their assets in the event that they were sued. I don't know first hand how much premiums are but I would imagine being a HCP holder probably does make them a little bit higher. And I am sure that the instances that would be covered are very limited and unrealistic.

Besides that, in TN it is very difficult for someone to sue for stuff like that, though it is not impossible. I really like the idea of good insurance that would protect me against such instances, but i think in practice it would be a waste of good money because it would not cover very well or be too expensive. I say just be sure if you pull the trigger and save the premiums in case you need a good laywer

[rg65]

I carry a 1 mil umbrella policy. I could not find a exclusion for firearms. It costs about $ 180 per year.

[jhnpeterman]

I think you can get insurance through the NRA

[GLOCKMEISTER]

you cant get coverage for it in Tennessee,even thru NRA, because using a gun in Tennessee even in a self defense action is an intentional act, therefor Ins. wouldnt pay off.

So no matter what anyone tells you or sells you its worthless, if you dont believe me call the state.

[Oh Shoot]

I think you can get insurance through the NRA

You can get life insurance that pays off in gun related accident, matter of fact you get some when you join, forget how much. But don't think it covers actual self defense type death, but it might. But at any rate, it's life insurance that only pays off when you're dead.

You can also get insurance on your guns, theft for sure, maybe fire and whatnot not sure about that.

But no liability to cover others for your bullets, whether justified or not.

- OS

[PC7]

I’ve found this from the NRA. NRA Endorsed Insurance - Self Defense Coverage

Glockmeister, what part would they not pay? The above plan covers civil defense and liability. It also covers reimbursement for criminal defense. Those two alone may be worth it, even if they don’t cover property damage and bodily injury in Tennessee.

[cannoncocker]

The latest Home Owners standard policy (HO-2008) provides coverage for intentional acts if in the defense of a person or property. This same policy also increases coverage for firearms (theft only) from $2,500 to $10,000. Anyone having their homeowners coverage written on the old HO-93 policy should check with their insurance agent/broker/company to see if they offer the new policy.

[G27]

I carry a 1 mil umbrella policy. I could not find a exclusion for firearms. It costs about $ 180 per year.

Ditto.

[cannoncocker]

"Firearms" Is not what you what you should be looking for under your liability policy or the liability section of your home owners policy. You need to look for an "intentional act" exclusion.

Arson is an intentional act. Shooting or striking an intruder is an intentional act.

With respect to umbrella coverage, look for the same intentional act exclusion or a blanket clause that excludes anything not covered under your underlying policies.

[Oh Shoot]

I’ve found this from the NRA. NRA Endorsed Insurance - Self Defense Coverage..

Far out...I retract my previous statement re NRA sponsored insurance.

2nd mistake I've made this year...

- OS

[greenego]

I carry a 1 mil umbrella policy. I could not find a exclusion for firearms. It costs about $ 180 per year.

Which insurance company is this with?

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I’ve found this from the NRA. NRA Endorsed Insurance - Self Defense Coverage

Glockmeister, what part would they not pay? The above plan covers civil defense and liability. It also covers reimbursement for criminal defense. Those two alone may be worth it, even if they don’t cover property damage and bodily injury in Tennessee.

In Tn if you go home and burn your house down, your not getting paid. If you go out and attack someone.. your not covered, whats the difference?

FWIW NRA is just the sponsor. And thats just the page to advertise it. Get it and read the policy. Lords or another company will have to write it, and to the best of my knowledge it isnt worth a dime in Tennessee. But hey, if it makes you feel better go ahead and get it, just pray you never need it. aLL IM SAYING IS EVERYTHING i HAVE HEARD IS ITS NOT ANY GOOD, SO PLEASE JUST MAKE SURE BEFORE YOU SPEND YOUR MONEY.

Edited October 11, 2009 by GLOCKMEISTER

[GLOCKMEISTER]

oooops cap lock

[Guest (BH)]

It's all about Prepaid Legal. Here's a link. It's cheap, easy and came highly recommended by my HCP instructor.

Pre-Paid Legal Services, Inc.

[Guest rabidrhino]

It's all about Prepaid Legal. Here's a link. It's cheap, easy and came highly recommended by my HCP instructor.

Pre-Paid Legal Services, Inc.

I'm not seeing how that is relevant and am curious why it is highly recommended? I would be highly hesitant to use such services where large sums of money would be involved or one might be going to jail.

Admittedly, I don't have any answers as umbrella policies most often won't help and I have no experience with the NRA endorsed insurance.

[Guest jackdm3]

From my $1,000,000 State Farm policy for which I had to increase my limits on my truck coverage to get an umbrella:

"We will not provide insurance for personal injury or property damage which is either expected or intended by you; or to any person or property which is the result of your willful and malicious act, no matter at whom the act was directed."

To me that reads as long as the fight was brought to me and I did not seek/provoke it, but was the obvious victim by it.

I called my agent, gave them a scenario of my wife leaving her car to go to the house and killing a would-be attacker, they called HQ and returned a call with, "well it is a policy for the purpose you described, but the circumstances of your claim will really determine whether we accept your claim in a self-defense situation. But surely you don't want the policy just for that reason? You do want extra coverage in case someone gets hurt in a fire at your house or sues you for more than is in your auto policy for a serious wreck?" I said a horrible collision is the most likely scenario of all possible claims, but they didn't pay for my car accident in '03 when I had two witnesses and his only witness didn't even know what lane I was in or the color of my car. My brother-in-law is an attorney for State Farm type companies and he says his job is to pay little-to-none of any claims. He protects State Farm when he defends you. Those financial savings help their stockholders, not you.

So the $153 I pay every 6 months may or may not be worth it. My scenario of wife-kills-an-attacker-on-the-way-into-the-house seems to be very black and white to all of us. How many details do you need other than the obvious, cut-and-dry, end-of-story facts? Insurance companies will always look for an angle.

[rg65]

Which insurance company is this with?

State Farm

[Guest rabidrhino]

From my $1,000,000 State Farm policy for which I had to increase my limits on my truck coverage to get an umbrella:

"We will not provide insurance for personal injury or property damage which is either expected or intended by you; or to any person or property which is the result of your willful and malicious act, no matter at whom the act was directed."

To me that reads as long as the fight was brought to me and I did not seek/provoke it, but was the obvious victim by it.

I called my agent, gave them a scenario of my wife leaving her car to go to the house and killing a would-be attacker, they called HQ and returned a call with, "well it is a policy for the purpose you described, but the circumstances of your claim will really determine whether we accept your claim in a self-defense situation. But surely you don't want the policy just for that reason? You do want extra coverage in case someone gets hurt in a fire at your house or sues you for more than is in your auto policy for a serious wreck?" I said a horrible collision is the most likely scenario of all possible claims, but they didn't pay for my car accident in '03 when I had two witnesses and his only witness didn't even know what lane I was in or the color of my car. My brother-in-law is an attorney for State Farm type companies and he says his job is to pay little-to-none of any claims. He protects State Farm when he defends you. Those financial savings help their stockholders, not you.

So the $153 I pay every 6 months may or may not be worth it. My scenario of wife-kills-an-attacker-on-the-way-into-the-house seems to be very black and white to all of us. How many details do you need other than the obvious, cut-and-dry, end-of-story facts? Insurance companies will always look for an angle.

The catch is in this scenario your wife chose to pull the trigger...i.e. an intentional act. While I wholly agree with your point of view, I think major problems would result between you and the insurance company if you were on the losing end of a civil suit.

[deafdogdief]

From my $1,000,000 State Farm policy for which I had to increase my limits on my truck coverage to get an umbrella:

"We will not provide insurance for personal injury or property damage which is either expected or intended by you; or to any person or property which is the result of your willful and malicious act, no matter at whom the act was directed."

To me that reads as long as the fight was brought to me and I did not seek/provoke it, but was the obvious victim by it.

I called my agent, gave them a scenario of my wife leaving her car to go to the house and killing a would-be attacker, they called HQ and returned a call with, "well it is a policy for the purpose you described, but the circumstances of your claim will really determine whether we accept your claim in a self-defense situation. But surely you don't want the policy just for that reason? You do want extra coverage in case someone gets hurt in a fire at your house or sues you for more than is in your auto policy for a serious wreck?" I said a horrible collision is the most likely scenario of all possible claims, but they didn't pay for my car accident in '03 when I had two witnesses and his only witness didn't even know what lane I was in or the color of my car. My brother-in-law is an attorney for State Farm type companies and he says his job is to pay little-to-none of any claims. He protects State Farm when he defends you. Those financial savings help their stockholders, not you.

So the $153 I pay every 6 months may or may not be worth it. My scenario of wife-kills-an-attacker-on-the-way-into-the-house seems to be very black and white to all of us. How many details do you need other than the obvious, cut-and-dry, end-of-story facts? Insurance companies will always look for an angle.

The agent beats around the bush like a one-legged tap dancer.

[Guest jackdm3]

rapidrhino, what's your measure of lawsuit avoidance?

[Guest rabidrhino]

Short, somewhat silly answer: Being a litigator.

Serious answer:

Having close friends that are much much better at litigating than I am (I specialize in IP) and in any event being willing to put up the funds to defend myself.

Quite honestly, I would like to see someone do research on this issue in TN. I don't have experience in this area of the law and have no idea what protection we are currently afforded. Somewhat related, I seem to remember reading a NY case at one point where self defense was excluded from coverage as an intentional injury. However, I wouldn't be surprised if other courts decided this differently or at least sent it to the jury.

I do know insurance for litigation can be tricky as obviously the insurance company doesn't want to spend a boat load of money on litigation yet doesn't want to be saddled with possible liability. I do wonder about the NRA insurance and would like to find out how it has been used and to what success. I know nothing about it myself and have heard nothing firm about it.

While not trying not to be too preachy, there just are some times a lawsuit can't be avoided no matter what actions a person takes. As you likely know, it is easy to drag someone into court and make someone spend money. Again, I'm no expert in self-defense situations, but I would think that the best avoidance would be to follow what the experts say once a shooting happens so as to not put yourself in a worse situation. Secondly, if a civil suit does happen, hopefully have the means to spend a chunk of money quickly to put things to rest as soon as possible, even if that means some sort of settlement.

[Guest jackdm3]

Thanks rabidrhino. It sounds like your wheels are turning on this. Please let us know if you learn more from your colleagues.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

rabidrhino, NRA Insurance is just the name for endorsements, they even call themselves the "NRA ENDORSED INSURANCE" most of the policys are written through larger companies, ours is thru Loyds Of London.

Btw, if anyone finds one that will for sure work, and has a history of paying off in intentional acts of self defense cases let me know and I'll buy it myself. So far everything we have sought out couldnt guarantee that, so IMHO its a waste of money.

Edited October 15, 2009 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Guest jg45]

What about this type? Seems to be sort of a combination of prepaid legal and insurance.