Sad but true story -- LEO and HCP holder

[Guest Alpha Dog]

A friend was pulled over, has HCP, told officer and handed HCP with license to officer. Officer shouted, "Put your hands on the steering wheel!" Asked if friend was armed. Answer was yes, 22 in console. LEO shouted, "Get out of the car." Stood friend near the car and asked if other weapons were in the car. Yes, another pistol in the open glove box (friend had gotten veh registration out), in plain view.

At no time did LEO give a reason for stop, even after REPEATED requests from friend. LEO did NOT ask permission to search car, but tossed the glove box and console, even though both weapons were in plain sight. LEO unloaded both weapons.

FINALLY tells friend there was a gas drive off and told friend to drive back to gas station. Both arrive at gas station, friend enters, clerk says "I'm sorry about this, I TOLD THEM IT WAS MY FAULT NOT YOURS, after you left I discovered that I did something wrong when I ran your card and I ASKED the LEO to ASK you to come back if they found you."

Let's review...NEVER under arrest, NEVER given a reason for stop when asked, car searched without asking. I'm not attempting to tell the conversation because I can't remember all my friend told me, but the LEO was rude, verbally abusive, and non-apologetic at any time.

Friend had to ASK if guns were going to be returned. LEO gave them back at the gas station. Friend started to reload them and LEO shouted, "What do you think you are doing? You wait until we are gone and then reload."

Friend does not have a record or any history of violations of any sort. Friend is a law-abiding HCP holder.

LE agency has a reputation for playing fast and loose with the law, even to the point of not being able to produce dash cam footage for more than one court case.

Thank God the agency is NOT IN MIDDLE TENNESSEE.

Friend has said that they will never volunteer that they have a HCP ever again.

Friend has called LE agency more than once to lodge an official complaint; the person to talk to has "conveniently" not been available. I suggested contacting an attorney.

LEOs like this are in the minority...it is a shame that there are any like this one at all.

[-boatman-]

In what city did this happen?

[Guest mikedwood]

Friend has said that they will never volunteer that they have a HCP ever again.

Sorry to break it to you but your HCP # and DL # are the same. They know even if you don't tell them. Then they will be really mad (or madder as the case may be)

[Daniel]

Ive been stopped. I didnt tell and it was never mentioned.

[Guest .45]

Friend has called LE agency more than once to lodge an official complaint; the person to talk to has "conveniently" not been available. I suggested contacting an attorney.

LEOs like this are in the minority...it is a shame that there are any like this one at all.

+1. tell him to get that attorney. this officer, as well as his superiors needs to be held accountable for his actions. he is a bad reflection on a very noble occupation...

.45

[Kelemvor]

+1. tell him to get that attorney. this officer, as well as his superiors needs to be held accountable for his actions. he is a bad reflection on a very noble occupation...

.45

+100

[Guest TXRoadhouse]

from what understand, if you leave the door open, when you get out, then they can look through your car. best thing to do is if they ask you to get out of the car is to shut the door behind you and lock it, remember your keys, then they hafta ask you to search your car. you can then refuse/comply and they can let you go or get a warrent. dont think they will bother a judge for a simple traffic stop.

[Guest Alpha Dog]

What city? Not going to say. Some LEO from there may be a TGO member and my friend doesn't need any grief. Suffice to say...waaay east of Midd TN.

Good point was made about shutting door and locking so they have to ask for access, but the fact remains, it was an unwarranted search without probable cause.

I told friend that instead of asking, "Why did you stop me?" the question should have been, "Am I under arrest?" "If not, I'd like my DL back please, I have somewhere to be."

LEOs would then ask, "Have you got something to hide? Can I look in your car? You won't mind if you have nothing to hide."

Most sheeple will cave and give permission, not knowing that their permission gives LEO freedom to ransack and empty the entire vehicle's contents on the side of the road.

The overriding point, and most disturbing point in my mind, is that a law-abiding HCP holder was stopped and treated with total disrespect.

The LEO behavior was somewhere between a normal traffic stop and a felony stop...leaning more towards felony than normal.

I don't think friend will get any satisfaction by calling agency to complain. I think friend has a good reason to call a lawyer.

Now, I'm NOT bashing LEOs...don't think for a minute I am...I'm just bashing this one particular LEO. I used to work at a small PD as a 911 dispatcher for a number of years (1980s), attended various LEO training, and even trained with their SWAT team (I was a bad guy), was the designated communication person for the team and the (FBI trained) hostage negotiator.

I just shared the story because I thought it was interesting, and I hoped that other TGO members would comment and share advice, as has already been done.

[Fallguy]

Sorry to break it to you but your HCP # and DL # are the same. They know even if you don't tell them. Then they will be really mad (or madder as the case may be)

Not untill and unless they run your DL. They wouldn't know as they are walking up to the car anyway.

...and you're right, they may get mad, but they shouldn't. They should lobby to change the law if they feel that strongly about it.

[Guest HexHead]

+1. Anytime you are asked to exit the car, close and lock the doors with your remote. There's no reason for him to disarm you if your gun is inside a locked vehicle on just a routine stop. If he wants to toss your car, make him get a warrant first.

[Guest louderthebetter]

If stopped and they get nasty,from then on do everything by the numbers.

Why was I stopped.

Am I under arrest?

And no you don't have my o.k. to search my car w/out a warrent.

Above all,don't let anger get the best of you.Stay cool and do as your told so as

to not give him a reason to charge you with disorderly conduct if you get loud.

You have rights but you can't win if your emotions get the best of you.

If he crosses the line he knows is there,he may win this battle but in court,you could

win the war.

[Steelharp]

Sounds like the same ****stick that I encountered in between Hendersonville and Gallatin a couple years back.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Not untill and unless they run your DL. They wouldn't know as they are walking up to the car anyway.

with all the computers in the cars now days Im sure they can, they may not be supposed to anymore... but they can. Back in the day some used to run the 10-28, and then sometimes run the 10-27 from the owners information that came up on the 10-28. Thus you get HCP status.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

now about the incident... Tel your friend to Call and ask for the Chief/Sheriff. Stuff like this shouldnt happen, and the more we ignore it the more it will happen. All that said the officer has a right to obtain any weapon in your possession for his safety. Btw, locking your car wont do any good.

[Kelemvor]

now about the incident... Tel your friend to Call and ask for the Chief/Sheriff. Stuff like this shouldnt happen, and the more we ignore it the more it will happen. All that said the officer has a right to obtain any weapon in your possession for his safety. Btw, locking your car wont do any good.

If you lock your car and deny them a search, how can they get in legally without a warrant?

This situation was ridiculous, this exact crap is why so many people have problems with LEO's. It must have been so humiliating to have been treated like that.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I agree this was way out of line, but locking the car wont help in this situation. Remember he admitted he had a weapon. Therefor the officer has a right to obtain the weapon because of officer safety.

In other stops this is really a non issue, most LEO wont allow you out of the car anyway.

[USMCJG]

I agree this was way out of line, but locking the car wont help in this situation. Remember he admitted he had a weapon. Therefor the officer has a right to obtain the weapon because of officer safety.

In other stops this is really a non issue, most LEO wont allow you out of the car anyway.

If you are an HCP holder and have a gun in the car or are not an HCP holder and have a gun in the car because you are on the way to the range, going hunting, etc., do LEOs have free reign to toss your car without a warrant?

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I wouldnt have, hell I didnt really care. I think everyone should carry. But to answer your question correctly you have to be more specific.

Example: You get pulled over, officer ask if there are any weapons in the car. You say "YES" then for officer safety concerns he can obtain possession of them while on the stop. That doesnt mean he can "toss" your car. But if you say "YES" and tell the officer they are in the glove box or trunk, then he can go into the glove box of trunk to obtain them. If you have drugs or a body in the trunk in plain sight, and he sees it while attempting to obtain the firearm then your up a creek too.

Btw, most officers dont care as long as your not messing with it while on the stop, and IMHO if you cant get to it then it shouldnt be an issue. Some officers dont feel that way.

[Guest Matchguy]

I spent 21 of my 28 years in law enforcement in the rank of sergeant investigating complaints against officers by citizens. Here's some advice:

1. Before you go throwing your money down a sinkhole by hiring an attorney, sit down and type an articulate, professional, gramatically correct, totally factual registered letter to the chief of the department. Nothing must be exaggerated or understated....it has to be completely objective and factual. Keep the emotion and outrage out of it.....you want to come across as cool, calm, and collected, not just another irate jerk pissed about a ticket......they're a dime a dozen and nobody listens to them.

You should state that this is a formal complaint for the officer's inappropriate and/or unreasonable conduct during a traffic stop.....don't say unlawful unless you can back it up, and don't refer to something a friend told you an officer can't do, because most friends don't know diddly squat about the law or what an officer can or cannot do, and that includes most of the guys on this forum. Do not stipulate that you expect the officer to be fired or transferred because no chief is going to be told what to do with one of his officers......that's between him, the City Manager, and the laws and rules governing the officer's employment. Just state that you consider the officer's actions to be unreasonable, that you feel that he dealt with you in a totally inappropriate manner, that you believe the search was unjustified under the circumstances, and that you expect the Department to take the appropriate corrective action.

2. Now, what will this accomplish? You can't fire an officer for mistreating the public verbally and for violating Departmental policies pertaining to search and seizure without a paper trail of complaints and unsuccessful corrective actions....cops are government employees and their employment has certain protections under the law just like anyone else, and they can't be fired just because someone thinks they should be. Your letter will be one cog in that process, so you want to make it as credible, factual, and believable as possible. This will be especially important in a case like yours where there are no uninvolved or objective witnesses to the event in its entirety.

3. In your letter, after the signature block, write "cc: City Manager" or whoever the prevailing authority might be. This will keep the Department from roundfiling it and will make sure they look at it, if you don't trust them to do this in the first place. Oh, and make sure you actually send the copy to that prevailing authority, also registered mail with a cover letter explaining briefly what your letter to the Chief concerns.

4. As far as a lawsuit is concerned, the process of civil remedy is intended to remedy an injury suffered by the plaintiff, and a civil rights violation could be such an injury while being yelled at by a cop or being harmlessly delayed a few minutes too long is not. In the case you've articulated here, I think most good lawyers would tell you to save your money and write the letter I've described, but I'll leave that up to you.

It's always best to resolve the complaint at the lowest possible level and revert to letter writing only after that fails, which I understand to be the case here. Once again, factual objectivity will be what counts in having your complaint taken seriously. FWIW

MG

PS....lodging your complaint on an internet gun forum will not bring about the corrections you're looking for, and the advice obtained there isn't reliable enough to base a suit on. See a lawyer if you think you need to sue.

Edited October 10, 2009 by Matchguy

[USMCJG]

I wouldnt have, hell I didnt really care. I think everyone should carry. But to answer your question correctly you have to be more specific.

Example: You get pulled over, officer ask if there are any weapons in the car. You say "YES" then for officer safety concerns he can obtain possession of them while on the stop. That doesnt mean he can "toss" your car. But if you say "YES" and tell the officer they are in the glove box or trunk, then he can go into the glove box of trunk to obtain them. If you have drugs or a body in the trunk in plain sight, and he sees it while attempting to obtain the firearm then your up a creek too.

Btw, most officers dont care as long as your not messing with it while on the stop, and IMHO if you cant get to it then it shouldnt be an issue. Some officers dont feel that way.

Okay, thanks for the explanation. While you are in a question answering mood, I have a bit of an off topic question. I drive a crew cab pickup truck. When I go to the range(I don't have an HCP by the way)I keep the guns in the back seat, unloaded, in a hard gun case. I keep my ammunition and magazines(unloaded) in the front seat in my range bag. I have always wondered if this is good enough in the eyes of the law. I am not comfortable with leaving either my ammunition or my firearms in the open bed of the truck. So my question is, is this an acceptable way to transport my firearms and ammunition to the range as far as the law is concerned? Thanks. Edited October 10, 2009 by USMCJG
Forearms changed to firearms. Leaving my forearms in the bed sounded kinda stupid.

[BlueRaiderFan]

I agree with Matchguy. Filing a formal complaint is the best way to go. We've had a few hotheads pop off on a citizen recently in my town. Seems like it's best to file a complaint with multiple parties so it doesn't get brushed aside.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Okay, thanks for the explanation. While you are in a question answering mood, I have a bit of an off topic question. I drive a crew cab pickup truck. When I go to the range(I don't have an HCP by the way)I keep the guns in the back seat, unloaded, in a hard gun case. I keep my ammunition and magazines(unloaded) in the front seat in my range bag. I have always wondered if this is good enough in the eyes of the law. I am not comfortable with leaving either my ammunition or my forearms in the open bed of the truck. So my question is, is this an acceptable way to transport my firearms and ammunition to the range as far as the law is concerned? Thanks.

it is, or you can have them all in the back seat in your range bag as long as your guns or mags arent loaded. I think your good to go eitehr way.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I agree with Matchguy. Filing a formal complaint is the best way to go. We've had a few hotheads pop off on a citizen recently in my town. Seems like it's best to file a complaint with multiple parties so it doesn't get brushed aside.

agree 100%

[Oh Shoot]

Okay, thanks for the explanation. While you are in a question answering mood, I have a bit of an off topic question. I drive a crew cab pickup truck. When I go to the range(I don't have an HCP by the way)I keep the guns in the back seat, unloaded, in a hard gun case. I keep my ammunition and magazines(unloaded) in the front seat in my range bag. I have always wondered if this is good enough in the eyes of the law. I am not comfortable with leaving either my ammunition or my forearms in the open bed of the truck. So my question is, is this an acceptable way to transport my firearms and ammunition to the range as far as the law is concerned? Thanks.

My opinion is yes, that's fine, and that you'd really have had to piss a LEO off in some other way for him to charge you with intent to go armed in that situation.

Truth be told, my guess is that 99.+ out of 100 LEOs in TN wouldn't charge you even if the ammo was right there with the unloaded guns without other circumstances of some sort making them look for something to sting you.

Note: This is my opinion. IANAL.

- OS

Edited October 10, 2009 by OhShoot

[USMCJG]

Thanks Glockmeister and OhShoot. Sorry for the temporary hijack, and now back to your regularly scheduled programming.