NYC undercover stings expose 'gun show loophole'

[Metalhead]

NEW YORK — Investigators hired by New York City conducted stings at gun shows in states that have not closed the "gun show loophole" and found some vendors openly selling weapons to buyers who admitted they couldn't pass background checks.

The stings, described in a city report released Wednesday, were conducted at seven gun shows in Tennessee, Ohio and Nevada. Those states are among the many that permit private unlicensed dealers, known as "occasional sellers," to sell weapons at gun shows without conducting background checks.

Gun-control advocates say the loophole makes it easier for criminals to acquire guns and prevents law enforcement from being able to trace those weapons if they are used in crimes.

Nine states, including New York, have passed laws to close the loophole, requiring background checks on at least all handgun purchases at gun shows. Mayor Michael Bloomberg has long campaigned for Congress to close the loophole, and for states to do it on their own if the federal government does not.

Even in states that haven't closed the loophole, federal law bars "occasional sellers" from selling guns to people they have reason to believe would fail a background check.

This is where the Bloomberg operation says 19 out of 30 sellers broke the law during the investigation, in which undercover buyers wore tiny cameras concealed in baseball hats and purses and audio recorders hidden in wristwatches.

In each purchase, the investigator showed interest in buying a gun, agreed on a price and then indicated that he probably could not pass a background check. Most sellers allowed the purchases anyway, responding in some cases by saying, "I couldn't pass one either," or "I don't care," according to the city's report.

Two assault rifles and 20 semiautomatic handguns were bought this way, the report said.

The 11 dealers who refused sales showed they knew the law.

"Once you say that, I'm kind of obligated not to," said one seller, according to the report. "I think that's what the rules are."

"Fact is, you done told me too much," said another who refused. "I wouldn't sell one to you at all."

The city has no legal authority over the dealers and is using its findings to make a point. A copy of the report is being sent to every member of Congress and the findings will be shared the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

"The gun show loophole is a deadly serious problem, and this undercover operation exposes just how pervasive and serious it is," the mayor said in a statement.

The undercover operation took place from about May to August and its $1.5 million cost was paid by city taxpayers. The city hired a team of 40 private investigators from an outside firm to make the purchases.

The sting comes three years after Bloomberg's administration conducted a similar operation focusing on illegal straw purchases at gun shops in Georgia, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Virginia that authorities believe were responsible for selling guns used in crimes in New York City. (A straw purchase is when one person fills out the paperwork and buys the gun for somebody else.)

Bloomberg's administration brought a civil case against 27 gun dealers targeted in its 2006 investigation.

As a result of the suit, 20 dealers are being monitored by a court-appointed special master. One is out of business, two more are expected to be put under monitoring agreements and three were dropped from the suit. A final dealer settled with the city but the terms did not include a monitor.

Investigators in this year's sting also attempted straw purchases at gun shows, and were successful 16 out of 17 times.

The city said it was not planning civil action this time around.

Granted, the idiots shouldnt be selling their guns to people who blatently tell them they can't pass a background check, but why the hell can't NYC leave the rest of the country the hell alone?

[Guest SUNTZU]

Sounds like we need another person to step forth and tell NYC to get ****ed and stay out of the state.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

its hard when they catch guys making stupid mistakes and even stupider comments...

watch this and you will see what were up against.

http://www.gunshowundercover.org/

the way I understand it they are going to have some local guys on here in the next few days, it wouldnt surprise me if you saw a familiar face or two.

[extremescene]

This is damn scary to think this was going on right here in TN... The numerous people who don't respect the laws we currently have will make it hard on everybody. Those particular "occasional sellers" are screwing us all!

I recently purchased a rifle from someone at a gun show who was not a dealer... funny thing is he's been at every gun show in Nashville this summer with a table and everything. Not sure he is an "occasional seller," but I enjoyed skipping the $10 fee, nonetheless. Still got me thinking that it was a little too easy, he didn't ask me about my background at all until my girlfriend mentioned it to him after the sale was complete... he asked me at that point if I was a felon.

[deafdogdief]

In the video they cite 30% linked to gun shows. How are they 'linked'? After it was sold three times? After it was STOLEN and then used in a crime? One can twist these stats however one wants. I wish these guys would be definitive with what they cite. Bloomberg is a parasite on the second amendment. He's gathering all this information and I'm sure later this will all be made into a legal battle just to set some type of precedent

[bukowski548]

And why exactly is the city of New York spend $1.5 million of taxpayer money to investigate things that occured in other states? If that was my tax money, I'd be raising serious hell.

buk

[deafdogdief]

And why exactly is the city of New York spend $1.5 million of taxpayer money to investigate things that occured in other states? If that was my tax money, I'd be raising serious hell.

buk

Bloomburg has started his own coalition trying to get other mayors to ban guns. He is attempting to set precedent...and where do you suppose that will stop? Here's the link. Haven't read this one, just know about it.

http://www.mayorsagainstillegalguns.org/html/home/home.shtml

Edited October 7, 2009 by deafdogdief
Added link

[DaveTN]

I don’t think their goal is stop the “Gun Show Loopholeâ€; I think it is to stop private sales period. Why would it matter to a criminal if he went to a gun show or an internet forum? It wouldn’t.

<O:p</O:p

I don’t understand how you can sell 348 SKS’s in a year and not have an FFL.

But there are many people that are making money buying and selling guns.

I couldn’t care less except for the people that are doing it openly here on this forum and aren’t paying vendors fees.

[TripleDigitRide]

Gun shows and gun shops are probably not the only places this is happening. It could possibly be happening right here on TGO.

Not only does the buyer need to beware, so does the seller.

[Guest crotalus01]

Loophole my ass. An unlicensed owner can sell a gun to anyone who is a resident of the same state (at least in TN).

Nowhere in the law do I see a requirement to ask if the buyer is a felon or prohibited person, only that the seller must not reasonably believe that the buyer is not prohibited.

Or am I wrong?

[BlueRaiderFan]

Even if they close the "loophole" criminals will just get their guns elsewhere. Then they'll impose even more rules and regulations on the law abiding citizens.

[K191145]

I was just wondering about a few things, the same things I thought about when Bloomberg sent investigators to Ohio and South Carolina a while back.

Who are these investigators and where are they from? I was under the impression that it is illegal for a person to buy a gun in another state that he/she is not a resident from. I'm quite positive that only local city/county, state, and federal law enforcement has any jurisdiction in Tennessee. So wouldn't some non-official private investigator from New York be violating the law by buying a firearm from Tennessee?

[TripleDigitRide]

New York City investigators covered seven gun shows in three states. Tennessee was one of them. At shows at the Expo Center and State Fairgrounds, they caught on tape just how easy it could be for criminals to buy guns.

So close to home.

[deafdogdief]

I was just wondering about a few things, the same things I thought about when Bloomberg sent investigators to Ohio and South Carolina a while back.

Who are these investigators and where are they from? I was under the impression that it is illegal for a person to buy a gun in another state that he/she is not a resident from. I'm quite positive that only local city/county, state, and federal law enforcement has any jurisdiction in Tennessee. So wouldn't some non-official private investigator from New York be violating the law by buying a firearm from Tennessee?

Good point. Does the argument for them of the 'ends justify the means' stand up in court?

[DaveTN]

I was just wondering about a few things, the same things I thought about when Bloomberg sent investigators to Ohio and South Carolina a while back.

Who are these investigators and where are they from? I was under the impression that it is illegal for a person to buy a gun in another state that he/she is not a resident from. I'm quite positive that only local city/county, state, and federal law enforcement has any jurisdiction in Tennessee. So wouldn't some non-official private investigator from New York be violating the law by buying a firearm from Tennessee?

If you look at their member’s page, they have members here. Whoever they used had Tennessee ID’s. So I would guess their members here supplied the “investigatorsâ€.

Mayors Against Illegal Guns - Coalition Members

[Guest AmericanWorkMule]

Cheesy, but it gets the point across.

YouTube - NRA Virginia ad

[Semiauto]

Can you guys quote the article or amendment to the U.S. Constitution that allows the federal government to get involved in a private sale?

I think we need to take a step back from this background check nonsense and ask the government to take less of a role in our daily lives.

No one seems to be bothered by the Constitution anymore. Government involvement in the the delivery of healthcare is clearly not Constitutional, but no one ever mentions it.

[K191145]

If you look at their member’s page, they have members here. Whoever they used had Tennessee ID’s. So I would guess their members here supplied the “investigatorsâ€.

Mayors Against Illegal Guns - Coalition Members

It's worth an investigation though. Here's a link and artical about past so-called investigations by Bloomberg. This power addicted tyarrant is on a one man crusade against the 2nd Amendment and he doesn't care who he steps on or what laws he violates. I have the utmost disdain for Bloomberg, probably more than any other politician and I disdain quite a few.

NSSF

FAST FACTS . . .

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the Firearms Industry

New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg, using firearms trace data incorrectly, targeted more than 60 federal firearms licensed dealers across the country for unauthorized and ill-advised sting operations. The mayor sent civilian private eyes into these targeted retail stores to attempt to illegally purchase a firearm. The private eyes attempted to demonstrate "signs" indicative of a strawpurchaser and "fool" the dealer into selling the firearm. If a dealer proceeded with the sale, the mayor filed suit.

In May of 2006 New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg filed suit in a Brooklyn Federal Court against 15 out-of-state federal firearms licensed dealers (FFLs). In December of 2006, Mr. Bloomberg filed a second lawsuit against 12 additional firearms dealers. He alleged in his suit that those out-of-state firearms dealers are "rogue" dealers, describing them as "the worst of the worst" and blaming those dealers for the criminal misuse of guns in New York City.

In a strongly worded letter dated February 6, the United States Department of Justice rebuked the City of New York for engaging private investigators in stings of out-of-state federally licensed firearms dealers. The letter, a copy of which is below, was critical of the city's actions, saying the private investigators were "without proper law enforcement authority" and that future such action carried "potential legal liabilities." The letter also warned that the city's actions "however well-intentioned, could interrupt or jeopardize ongoing criminal investigations." In fact, ATF officials have publicly confirmed that New York City's actions did in fact interfere with as many as 18 ongoing criminal investigations. ATF officials have also acknowledged that they would investigate whether the city's private investigators broke the law. We were shocked by Deputy Mayor Ed Skyler's response to the Justice Department's warning saying that New York City would not necessarily stop conducting such stings.

The accusations being leveled by the mayor and the ill-advised (and potentially criminal) actions he has taken to make his civil case are inextricably linked to several larger firearms-related issues: lawsuits against the firearms industry, straw purchases, gun tracing, and the relationship between the firearms industry and law enforcement.

Frequently Asked Questions: Mayor Bloomberg and the Firearms Industry

Why were Mayor Bloomberg's so-called "sting" investigations of out-of-state firearms dealers ill-advised?

In addition to risking the lives of undercover law enforcement officers and witnesses, Mr. Bloomberg's "sting" operations, run without the knowledge of ATF or even the NYPD, interfered with as many as 18 on-going federal investigations.

ATF has publicly announced that it is reviewing the conduct of the Mayor's investigators to determine whether they engaged in any criminal conduct, as well as the actions of the dealers.

Is there any truth to the mayor's claims that firearms from "gun friendly" states are being used in New York City crimes?

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, the government entity charged with researching and reporting on such issues, approximately 40 percent of criminals obtain their firearms from friends or family and another 40 percent obtain their firearms from illegal sources on the street or stealing. Criminals rarely (less than 8.5 percent of the time) obtain firearms through retail dealers. 1

Several of the dealers sued by Mayor Bloomberg are located in Virginia that has a one-gun-a-month law.

Has Mayor Bloomberg reached out to the Industry for help?

No. To the contrary, Mr. Bloomberg has repeatedly rebuffed industry offers to educate him and members of his mayoral coalition about ongoing educational programs (see above) — which share the same goal as he does of reducing illegal firearms.

[Guest HexHead]

I wouldn't expect much cooperation from the current AG, Holder, in the Feds clamping down on Bloomberg.

[redfsr]

After watching that video, I'd be willing to bet some of those guys are going to be prosecuted for dealing without at license. It's clearly not a private sale when you have a table and sell hundreds of guns. A private sale is someone with a few guns they no longer want.

Edited October 8, 2009 by redfsr

[TripleDigitRide]

Anyone who attends the Nashville shows should recognize this dealer. Their booth stands out out.

[raydog1]

They are starting the full-court press on gun shows now. NRA-ILA have been warning us about Bloomberg and his Mayors Against Guns group for the past few months. He's going to do everything he can to make this national. Get ready.

Did I mention this was on CNN this AM?

Edited October 8, 2009 by raydog1

[Guest mustangdave]

Oh god its getting outa control...what are we gonna do? Pathetic Liberals

[extremescene]

This is pretty hardcore stuff... I purchased my mosquito from the above TN dealer, same salesman, in fact. Possibly the same show if it was this summer. They are at every single show in the area.

[raydog1]

Oh god its getting outa control...what are we gonna do? Pathetic Liberals

Bloomberg sent this to all of Congress, so we should expect a bill to hit the floor at some point. We'll fight it as usual.