Minimum Gun Skills

[TGO David]

I see. Well, I must fall into the category that everyone else in this thread has fallen into by discussing that other angle too.

Basic gun skills that a person needs to have if they are going to carry:

• Alertness to their surroundings
  
• The will to survive
  
• The common sense to de-escalate when possible
  
• The ability to hit a man-sized target at 7 yds minimum*

* - greater distances are gravy

Is this post better?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

But those are not really GUN SKILLS. Those are "soft skills" or pre fight skills.

That is why my original post was that the mimimum is be able to

1. draw from concealment in a timely manner

2. hit what you shoot at

3.clear a malfunction

4.reload the pistol.

And I provided a couple of drills to practice just those skills but apparently some folks think that those are too much for the average guy to master or more than would EVER be needed.....

[TGO David]

I don't disagree with those as being needed abilities that someone should acquire very soon after deciding to go armed.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Yeah. And that's why we read all the time about armed citizens who are constantly shot and stabbed by bad guys. If they had only listened to Gabe.

People get killed and injured everyday. We don't KNOW how many were armed because no one catalogs that info. The NRA Armed citizen just reports the wins....not the losses....and the FBI only catalogs and compiles details for a report on officers killed not civillians.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I don't disagree with those as being needed abilities that someone should acquire very soon after deciding to go armed.

I agree with your post too.

I was just pointing out that yours was more the pre fight, not so much the gun skills. I tell everyone that guns solve a VERY narrow range of problems that usually only come into play because you were not paying attention or made A LOT of bad decisions. If you pay attention and use your feet (leave before things get to the critical point) you will likely never have to use the gun. So we are in agreement.

[Guest canynracer]

ummm...wow...cant we all just get along??? LMAO (Sorry, had to do it)

We all agree that something is nessecary, some think formal training, while others, like myself think that people can learn from others just by asking and practicing. I do not have the money for any formal training, (doesnt mean I wont take the classes eventually, but right now, no) but I am very comfortable in the fact that I can, if necessary defend myself. not all encounters require a pistol. I lived my whole life in CA without one, 30 min from LA...I have lived in some pretty rough places, and got by without neededing a gun. It is damn near impossible to get a carry permit there, but that is a different post. But, using my brain, and my street fighting skills to get through it. is it luck? maybe, skill? who knows, I am no bad ass, but I am also no victim.

Bottom line, I now live in TN...and they allow it and I can get a permit. (why do dogs lick their b**lls? BECAUSE THEY CAN!) Everyone seems to worry about the "attacker" the "Bad guy"....last week, my buddy had to shoot a pit bull, he shot it twice...once in the head, and once in the back hip. that required a different skill set, and a different mind set for him to be in. (he works for Shelby County Sheriff), but even HE admitted that it is different than a human.

bottom line, I try VERY hard to be aware of my surrondings, I also try to stay away from "bad areas" (yes I know, I know it could happen ANYWHERE)

I rely on threads and websites like this to help me heighten my mindset, and learn how to practice without paying several hundreds of dollars.

I still thiunk owning a gun for home defense is different from carrying it.

But I do agree that some basics should be involved...what are they? I am not sure...but I do know there is a "what if" to EVERY situation that no amount of training can answer it all....

You all seem very intelligent, passionate and capable. That being said....you are ALL right!

[The Rabbi]

But those are not really GUN SKILLS. Those are "soft skills" or pre fight skills.

That is why my original post was that the mimimum is be able to

1. draw from concealment in a timely manner

2. hit what you shoot at

3.clear a malfunction

4.reload the pistol.

And I provided a couple of drills to practice just those skills but apparently some folks think that those are too much for the average guy to master or more than would EVER be needed.....

Tungsten, nice to have you with the program now.

I agree with the first three items listed. I query "reload" where reload means doing so under pressure in mid-gun fight. That isnt a basic skill since it is so rarely required.

[GhostDog]

You are probably right, Rabbi. Hitting a 1" target at 25yds will probably never be a factor. BUT... training WILL teach you the other things that Randy brought up. The most important of these (in my humble opinion) is running your gun (drawing, shooting, even reloading and clearing a malf). I'll use another car analogy: If you had to jump in a car right now and GO, would it be easier to jump in your own car or a strange car you had never driven? You would be surprised how many people handle their gun the same way a brand new driver handles a car. If something happens, you will have plenty to think about and do without having to actually think about how to drive/shoot (run the gun).

Another advantage of training is the trained response. We have all heard of the fight or flight response. If possible, "getting out of Dodge" is a good idea.

But, if you can't run, you'll have to fight. And... you will probably fight however your experience tell you to fight. When the "reptile brain" takes over, you will just fight. If the only "gunfighting" you've ever done is standing in the open blasting away at a still target, that's probably what you're gonna do. Not a real good way to avoid getting shot. I've seen this myself, it happens. At "tactical" matches, I've seen VERY good IPSC shooters stand in doorways or run into rooms and blast away because that's all they've ever done. No thought of cover or concealment ever entered their minds... conditioned response. The same has happened to police officers, who stood in the open, 2' from hard cover, and blasted away. I am NOT making fun of these folks, just trying to learn something that might help me out one day. This is why, when we shoot matches locally, we try to include stages where shooters have to move and get cover BEFORE they start shooting... conditioned response. More is taught in training than just fast reloads and malf clearing.

There's also the "been there, done that" factor. A child knows not to touch a hot eye on the stove in his HEAD because you told him not to. He knows it in his GUT when he actually touches the hot eye. Knowing it in his GUT is the lesson he remembers.

Just my opinion.

PS- Please forgive me for using the word "tactical", the most overused and stupid word in the English language these days.

[The Rabbi]

I would have no trouble jumping into a strange car, starting it, and driving a couple of blocks.

And that isnt a bad analogy. If I were taking a long trip through different weather conditions and had to operate the various systems (lights, wipers etc) I would want lots of time to acquaint myself with them. But if the only driving I am going to do is from here to the next block in broad daylight, I dont really need to concern myself with the other stuff. And since the possibility of my using the car is remote to begin with (since I'm 7 years old) then it won't much matter anyway.

[TGO David]

I can see where being able to reload under pressure is a critical skill. Hardware failures do happen and Murphy's Law always rears its ugly head at the worst possible time.

For example, the new M&P automatics have well documented problems with a "mag drop" issue where the magazine will spontaneously and unexpectedly drop free of some handguns while the handgun is being fired. Smith & Wesson remedies this with an improved magazine catch retrofitted to older models on a case by case basis. New models reportedly don't have the issue due to evolutionary design improvements.

A person should know what to do if their hardware fails for some reason and they should be able to do it under stress. Fortunately I think we can all agree that the only way to improve our odds of doing anything under stress is to hammer the response program into our brains and muscle memory through repeated training.

[Marswolf]

Anyone remember Don Imus?

As Imus used to say, this is getting tedious.

[GhostDog]

Tedious would be debating about Glocks (again and again and again)!

[Marswolf]

Tedious would be debating about Glocks (again and again and again)!

Or mindlessly telling how wonderful they are again and again and again.

[GhostDog]

Mindlessly? Mindlessly?! I may be ugly (you'll have to speak to my mother about that), but must I be accused of being dumb too? (Overly dramatic sigh) I fear I may never recover.

[The Rabbi]

I can see where being able to reload under pressure is a critical skill. Hardware failures do happen and Murphy's Law always rears its ugly head at the worst possible time.

For example, the new M&P automatics have well documented problems with a "mag drop" issue where the magazine will spontaneously and unexpectedly drop free of some handguns while the handgun is being fired. Smith & Wesson remedies this with an improved magazine catch retrofitted to older models on a case by case basis. New models reportedly don't have the issue due to evolutionary design improvements.

A person should know what to do if their hardware fails for some reason and they should be able to do it under stress. Fortunately I think we can all agree that the only way to improve our odds of doing anything under stress is to hammer the response program into our brains and muscle memory through repeated training.

I've never experienced a mag failure with my gun. Yet another blow for rotary semi-fixed magazines.

But I would say that if you experienced a mag pop-out you wouldnt have time to fix it, assuming it popped all the way on to the ground. So reloading isnt going to help much.

[Marswolf]

Mindlessly? Mindlessly?! I may be ugly (you'll have to speak to my mother about that), but must I be accused of being dumb too?

Well...you do think that Glocks are wonderful handguns....

[Guest canynracer]

You kids.....

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Just because I like to stir the pot:

What are the minimal skills someone ought to have to go armed or even have a gun at home?

My own list is:

-Ability to get all shots on an 8" pie plate at 20 feet (that's actually an NRA standard)

-Ability to load and unload the gun without looking at it.

-Ability to clear a malfunction in a timely manner.

-Ability to manipulate all controls (e.g. safety, slide release) under pressure.

-Ability to fire from retention.

You know, I just looked REALLY closely at the original post in this thread. Does it not mirror my own original post? Do not the drills I posted test these exact skills that he lists as "My own list"?

The 8" circle at 20 feet is pretty much the same accuracy standard of 8" at 7 yards (21 feet) in the drills I posted.

Load and unload without looking at it? Tested by the drills I posted.

Ability to clear a malfunction in a timely manner? In drill #1 if you can't tap rack QUICKLY you can't make the time standard.

Manipulate controls under pressure? See the reloading and malfunction clearance parts of the drills. The timer provides the pressure.

The drills I posted only add a tighter time frame to performing these same manipulations......maybe then the issue really wasn't the skills I listed but the time I suggested it be done in??????????

The only thing on the original list not covered in the drills is firing from retention

........Hmmmm. Interesting.......

[Guest canynracer]

hey look everyone...Luke is looking for a fight..

[Guest drewi]

You know, I just looked REALLY closely at the original post in this thread. Does it not mirror my own original post? Do not the drills I posted test these exact skills that he lists as "My own list"?

I think this thread has come full circle.

It appears some members like to argue just so they can hear themselves talk.

Randy, I think you have bruised a few very fragile egos. That's why you're catching so much heat.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

No fight needed.

Apparently he and I actually agree.....at least according to his first post. I just thought that very odd that the exact items he didn't think relevant (load and unload which some people call reload and clear malfunctions) were in his own list too.

[Guest canynracer]

ok, everyone step away from the keyboard.....

Now, Who wants ICE CREAM????

[Guest canynracer]

No fight needed.

Apparently he and I actually agree.....at least according to his first post. I just thought that very odd that the exact items he didn't think relevant (load and unload which some people call reload and clear malfunctions) were in his own list too.

I was kidding by the way...hehe...haha... ***does a little dance***

[Guest ETS_Inc]

I gotta say, I agree with both Cool Hand Luke and Rabbi (because deep down, their positions aren't that different). A gun carrier should be able to:

1) Draw their gun from concealment.

2) Fire from retention.

3) Hit an 8" target at 7 yards / 21 feet, in a reasonable amount of time. Hitting the square by aiming for 5 minutes isn't going to win a gun fight.

4) Clear any malfunctions in a timely manner. Murphy is a jerk, he'll mess up your day when you least want him to do so.

5) Reload their gun in a timely fashion. Just because the majority of fights are short doesn't mean they all are over quickly. This becomes especially important when carrying a gun with a lower ammo capacity (5-shot wheel gun).

[dariks]

Will someone explain what "Fire from Retention" means.