Minimum Gun Skills

[Marswolf]

I agree Rabbi. (My god, did I say that? )

The skills you need are to get your gun out, point it in a proper direction, and pull the trigger. It would be really good if you hit your target and didn't shoot bystanders too.

We aren't talking about a shootout in the streets of Medellin with a drug gang at 25 yards. We are looking at a very quick event at close range.

Nothing wrong with developing the additional skills, but they aren't the minimum skills. Probably the first skill is to develop a mindset so you don't panic. You have to know ahead of time what you are going to do if those guys coming toward you want something more than to have a polite conversation.

[The Rabbi]

I agree Rabbi. (My god, did I say that? )

The skills you need are to get your gun out, point it in a proper direction, and pull the trigger. It would be really good if you hit your target and didn't shoot bystanders too.

We aren't talking about a shootout in the streets of Medellin with a drug gang at 25 yards. We are looking at a very quick event at close range.

Nothing wrong with developing the additional skills, but they aren't the minimum skills. Probably the first skill is to develop a mindset so you don't panic. You have to know ahead of time what you are going to do if those guys coming toward you want something more than to have a polite conversation.

See, Mars. You're coming over to the Dark Side. Slowly.

Now repeat: real guns have cylinders.

[molonlabetn]

...Here are two drills that will work the minimum skills...

Sounds like good practice.

Here's where I disagree. These are not minimal skills at all. If someone wants to acquire them, great.

In terms of minimum skills, I agree. I mean, realistically, what about folks who are bound to a wheel-chair, or otherwise handicapped?

For a real minimum, I think that one must simply have a gun and have a general idea how to operate it. period.

There have been folks who defended themselves successfully with a firearm who have never used one before. Everything else is gravy, and while improvement is good... the only thing that really matters in the end is whether or not the person was willing to fight to survive, and was equipped sufficiently to do so.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

You either see the big picture or you don't.

This is not a replication of a gunfight.

It is a 15 round, 2 drill TEST of whether you can run your gear or not. The time limit is to induce stress. Do you think that a gun fight MIGHT be a LITTLE stressful?

The malfunction clearance is because guns malfunction in fights rather commonly. Not 95% of the time obviously, but enough that malfunction clearance is a real issue.

The 8" target at 7 yards is so you have to actually AIM the pistol.

The reloads are because if you shoot ANY at all your gun is no longer full. If the BG (or more likely the BGs) have friends then you want a gun loaded back to capacity quickly. And if you have a "limited capacity" gun you may well HAVE to reload to finish the fight.

The pass fail is because gunfights are like that you pass or fail.

Whether you LIKE this or not is not the issue . The issue is these drills test(under time stress and the possibility of failure stress) the core skills to running a handgun. If you can't run your gear under stress what makes you think you will rise to the occasion when it is real?

[The Rabbi]

In terms of minimum skills, I agree. I mean, realistically, what about folks who are bound to a wheel-chair, or otherwise handicapped?

I think with the wheel chair bound I would just kick the chair and run. I dont see any real need to shoot them unless they are actually holding a firearm on me.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

In terms of minimum skills, I agree. I mean, realistically, what about folks who are bound to a wheel-chair, or otherwise handicapped?

For a real minimum, I think that one must simply have a gun and have a general idea how to operate it. period.

quote]

I've personally witnessed a young fellow named Josh Benson make these times IN A WHEEL CHAIR, shooting and reloading ONE HANDED, because that is the hand he has been dealt in this life. He just DOES IT.

Surviving a confrontation by simply having a gun MIGHT happen for you, but then again it might not. Skill with said gun stacks the deck more in your favor.

[molonlabetn]

Woo-hoo... I'm sensing humor!

[The Rabbi]

You either see the big picture or you don't.

This is not a replication of a gunfight.

It is a 15 round, 2 drill TEST of whether you can run your gear or not. The time limit is to induce stress. Do you think that a gun fight MIGHT be a LITTLE stressful?

The malfunction clearance is because guns malfunction in fights rather commonly. Not 95% of the time obviously, but enough that malfunction clearance is a real issue.

The 8" target at 7 yards is so you have to actually AIM the pistol.

The reloads are because if you shoot ANY at all your gun is no longer full. If the BG (or more likely the BGs) have friends then you want a gun loaded back to capacity quickly. And if you have a "limited capacity" gun you may well HAVE to reload to finish the fight.

The pass fail is because gunfights are like that you pass or fail.

Whether you LIKE this or not is not the issue . The issue is these drills test(under time stress and the possibility of failure stress) the core skills to running a handgun. If you can't run your gear under stress what makes you think you will rise to the occasion when it is real?

Talk about missing the big picture.

The big picture is that gun fights involving private citizens are very limited in both duration and round count. There is not time to reload. There is not time for the gun to malfunction. There is seldom time to aim.

People carry guns to protect themselves from likely events. They do not carry them to prove they can "run the gun."

The likelihood of being involved in a gun fight at all is minimal. The average LE never is in the whole course of his career. All the more so for Joe Private Citizen.

If there is a gun fight the likelihood of it involving more than one BG is minimal. The likelihood of needing multiple reloads to "finish the fight" is next to nothing. According to Ed Lovette, there was a necessity to reload in 10% of the cases he studied. These cases were LE's armed with 6-shot revolvers and the cases spanned probably a decade or more. A person would be about as likely to die of Bubonic Plague as to be involved in a gun fight requiring reloads against multiple targets.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I agree Rabbi. (My god, did I say that? )

The skills you need are to get your gun out, point it in a proper direction, and pull the trigger. It would be really good if you hit your target and didn't shoot bystanders too.

And if you CAN'T clear a malfunction (that happened because you got a crappy grip on your pistol when you pulled it out or you fired it in contact with your body or his) then what? Call time out? Sorry. MAlf clearance (at least tap/rack) is a crucial skill.

[molonlabetn]

In terms of minimum skills, I agree. I mean, realistically, what about folks who are bound to a wheel-chair, or otherwise handicapped?

For a real minimum, I think that one must simply have a gun and have a general idea how to operate it. period.

quote]

I've personally witnessed a young fellow named Josh Benson make these times IN A WHEEL CHAIR, shooting and reloading ONE HANDED, because that is the hand he has been dealt in this life. He just DOES IT.

Surviving a confrontation by simply having a gun MIGHT happen for you, but then again it might not. Skill with said gun stacks the deck more in your favor.

In your opinion, does that mean that anyone with MS (or otherwise) who cannot perform this drill is SOL when the balloon goes up?

The achievement of Mr Benson is admirable, and certainly an excellent goal. But, in point of fact, even the most prepared, trained and skillful person could meet their end if the odds are stacked... I think what the average person needs to start with is simply the desire to take their survival into their own hands... I'm sure that's where Mr. Benson began, and I doubt that he abstained from carrying a gun before he reached his current level of proficiency because there was some threshold of mastery to self-defense.

That is a neat bit of information though, sounds like a driven fellow.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Talk about missing the big picture.

The big picture is that gun fights involving private citizens are very limited in both duration and round count. There is not time to reload. There is not time for the gun to malfunction. There is seldom time to aim.

People carry guns to protect themselves from likely events. They do not carry them to prove they can "run the gun."

The likelihood of being involved in a gun fight at all is minimal. The average LE never is in the whole course of his career. All the more so for Joe Private Citizen.

If there is a gun fight the likelihood of it involving more than one BG is minimal. The likelihood of needing multiple reloads to "finish the fight" is next to nothing. According to Ed Lovette, there was a necessity to reload in 10% of the cases he studied. These cases were LE's armed with 6-shot revolvers and the cases spanned probably a decade or more. A person would be about as likely to die of Bubonic Plague as to be involved in a gun fight requiring reloads against multiple targets.

There were over 1000 assaults in Memphis Tn involving multiple assailants last year.................

You still miss the point and frankly I don't think I have the patience to answer the same questions over and over again.

The drill is NOT a gunfight replica. It is an ARTIFICIAL TEST OF SKILL.

Can you get the gun out?

Can you hit what you are shooting at?

Can you clear a malfunction?

Can you reload the pistol whether it is mid fight, or just getting it back up and running IN CASE THERE IS AN ACCOMPLICE YOU DIDN'T YET PICK UP ON.

And can you do them wth some artificial stress (timer) induced?

These are the skills that I consider minimal.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

In your opinion, does that mean that anyone with MS (or otherwise) who cannot perform this drill is SOL when the balloon goes up?

Maybe. maybe not. Impossible to answer for EVERY possible situation. But IF they CAN do this then they are far and away more likely to survive a situation that ends up requiring gunfire to solve. My 77 year old father can't do these things. Is he LIKELY to survive a 2 on 1 assault? NO. I wish things were different but he just is NOT likely to survive that. And THAT is how life is kids.

The world isn't fair. There are damn few people on the street who are going to beat Randy Coutoure in a fight. Is that fair? No. No matter how much I'd like to I'm never gonna play NBA basketball. My skills are not good enough and my body is not geared for that. I accept it and move on. I play to best of my ability. But I don't suggest that I have no need to learn how to throw a bounce pass since a chest pass is statisticly more likely to be able to be thrown......And I don't try to play with Division 1 college guys any more. I can't hang with 'em so I avoid 'em. Same with the street. If you dont have the skills you need to practice HARD CORE awareness and avoidance so you have plenty of prior warning. But that is sound advice for Delta guys too....

FEW situations REQUIRE gunfire to solve if you pay attention to what is going on around you. In fact all the shooting is the last 10% of the solution. The other 90% (prefight) is where most people screw up and end up HAVING to use the gun.

So again the question was minimal skills. I submit that getting the gun out, hitting your target are MANDATORY. Clearing malfunction and reloading are CRUCIAL because empty and/or non functional guns are of little use in the fight. And THAT is what these DRILLS test.

If someone ersonally wants to just do as LITTLE as they can..... fine. But that rarely leads to success in ANY endeavor -especially under stress. Luck is fickle and can't be counted on. I'll stick wth stacking the odds in my favor.

[Marswolf]

And if you CAN'T clear a malfunction (that happened because you got a crappy grip on your pistol when you pulled it out or you fired it in contact with your body or his) then what? Call time out? Sorry. MAlf clearance (at least tap/rack) is a crucial skill.

If your assailant has his weapon out (why else would you be pulling your handgun?) and you fire and have a malfunction, you are dead. No time to clear your weapon and do all of the other neat stuff you learned in training. That's why a reliable weapon is so important.

I hate to say this, but the vast majority of people would do better putting the training money on a better handgun. Then, if you have a top-line reliable handgun, you can go for the training.

[molonlabetn]

I'm not downing the drill at all. The issues are:

- The simple will to survive, and access to appropriate tools is the basis for self-defense

- Regardless of the level of training, there are no guarantees of survival, though likelihood and probability are affected.

Just to add, for illustration:

If, sometime in the future, personal force-fields become available... You can bet that I'd drop coin on one of those before anything else (appropriate tool).

[Marswolf]

I'm not downing the drill at all.

Me either. It's a good idea to practice it.

I just contend that these are not the minimum skills you need.

[The Rabbi]

There were over 1000 assaults in Memphis Tn involving multiple assailants last year.................

You still miss the point and frankly I don't think I have the patience to answer the same questions over and over again.

The drill is NOT a gunfight replica. It is an ARTIFICIAL TEST OF SKILL.

Can you get the gun out?

Can you hit what you are shooting at?

Can you clear a malfunction?

Can you reload the pistol whether it is mid fight, or just getting it back up and running IN CASE THERE IS AN ACCOMPLICE YOU DIDN'T YET PICK UP ON.

And can you do them wth some artificial stress (timer) induced?

These are the skills that I consider minimal.

The stat about 1000 assaults is nice but not very germane to a discussion like this. More germane would be the question, in how many of those assaults did the victim need multiple shots on multiple targets to neutralize the threat? In how many cases involving armed citizens did the citizen need to reload?

You are right, the drills are artificial tests of skill. Therefore they are pretty well useless for someone seeing whether he has minimal skills to persevere in a gun fight.

It might be impressive to see someone field strip his Hi Power with one hand and re-assemble it, or change mags in the blink of an eye, or fire and reload his revolver in under 2 seconds. But ultimately that kind of stuff is just "stupid human tricks" fairly removed from the real world.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I'm not downing the drill at all. The issues are:

- The simple will to survive, and access to appropriate tools is the basis for self-defense

- Regardless of the level of training, there are no guarantees of survival, though likelihood and probability are affected.

We are in 100% agreement on those. And I would hope that most logical people would see that stacking the odds by improving your ability to perfornm the basic skills is a huge advantage.

[saintsfanbrian]

So agreed- If you have to pull your gun and can't clear a jam you are dead. Then again, if the bg already has a gun out and pointed at you, are you likely to be able to get your gun out and pointed at him and fire a round before he does? I doubt it, That is a lot of movement. You can hope that he misses and then you get a shot. Why do you think all of the old duels had guns drawn, cocked and ready before the first step was taken?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

The stat about 1000 assaults is nice but not very germane to a discussion like this. More germane would be the question, in how many of those assaults did the victim need multiple shots on multiple targets to neutralize the threat? In how many cases involving armed citizens did the citizen need to reload?

You are right, the drills are artificial tests of skill. Therefore they are pretty well useless for someone seeing whether he has minimal skills to persevere in a gun fight.

It might be impressive to see someone field strip his Hi Power with one hand and re-assemble it, or change mags in the blink of an eye, or fire and reload his revolver in under 2 seconds. But ultimately that kind of stuff is just "stupid human tricks" fairly removed from the real world.

OK fine.....I hereby pronounce that no matter how low your skills are YOU RABBI are 100% ready for ANY situation that comes along because you own a gun.

And further more ALL tests of skill are useless. All SKILL is useless. Everyone is equal in ability and practice is not needed.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

If your assailant has his weapon out (why else would you be pulling your handgun?) and you fire and have a malfunction, you are dead. No time to clear your weapon and do all of the other neat stuff you learned in training.

That may or may not be true, but certainly not a certainty. Folks clear malfunctions and survive gunfights all the time. That is why MOVING(so you are harder to hit) and being able to do these skills on demand are important.

[molonlabetn]

OK fine.....I hereby pronounce that no matter how low your skills are YOU RABBI are 100% ready for ANY situation that comes along because you own a gun.

And further more ALL tests of skill are useless. All SKILL is useless. Everyone is equal in ability and practice is not needed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Priceless!

Okay, fair enough. But seriously... 100% ready is impossible, and it is not altogether unlikely that there are folks who have never been formally trained who would react better under pressure than some who have. Don't get me wrong, I fully agree with post #42 above... but neither extreme can truly be guaged to succeed or fail without experience (which I hope we can all agree is undesireable!).

Training correlates with improved competence (we agree), but training does not cause survival (we perhaps disagree).

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Training correlates with improved competence (we agree), but training does not cause survival (we perhaps disagree).

It does not CAUSE survival. It ENHANCES the likelihood of survival through that improved competence. If it GOOD training it also enhances it through stress innoculation.

Once the bullet is in the air it is the KING. Nothing is 100% garauntee of survival. The bullet with your name on it is always gonna be the bullet with your name on it. When it is your time it is your time. I'm more concerned with enhancing my chances of not catching one that is just simply addressed "To whom it may concern".......

BUt the better your skills are the less you have to worry about manipulating your gun if your hands turn to flippers under stress.And the MORE you can concentrate on doing whatever is needed to not get killed

[Marswolf]

Folks clear malfunctions and survive gunfights all the time.

I think this is stretching it a bit. I can't recall any situations in which someone in a normal self-defense situation did this although I'm sure such occurrences must have happened. But I seriously doubt they happen all the time. Now, it does happen in places like Baghdad with some regularity, but the distances are more like 25 yards rather than 7 feet and there are a lot more reasons for the malfunctions and more time to correct them than what you will find on the streets of Memphis.

This kind of training is fine and even desirable. But I doubt it comes into play very often in common self-defense situations. Maybe more common in ambushes by a wife's new boyfriend than a robbery.

[The Rabbi]

OK fine.....I hereby pronounce that no matter how low your skills are YOU RABBI are 100% ready for ANY situation that comes along because you own a gun.

And further more ALL tests of skill are useless. All SKILL is useless. Everyone is equal in ability and practice is not needed.

That of course is totally off-base.

The thread was about minimum skills. In fact even the most minimum skill set is more than adequate for 99+% of the people likely to carry.

And as someone else (MolonLabeTN?) mentioned, there can even be a negative correlation. The only case I can think of where a highly trained person was involved was Tyler TX. And there it seems a good case could be made that his training gave him a misplaced confidence in his abilities.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Tom Givens has had 41 students involved in gunfights (at last count).

They have over 95% hit ratio.

About half of them had multiple opponents.

All but 2 won.

Those 2 had no gun......

So don't give me any CRAP about training having no effect , or that well trained people are always over confident. I guess 16 year old kids are safer drivers too since they have little confidence and little experience driving? I guess I could fly a space shuttle better than an astronaut because he is overconfident. That's just silly.

The Tyler Texas thing was a guy who charged in with a handgun vs a body armor wearing AK armed guy. That was not a failure of training as much as a failure in decision making. I know of plenty of well trained guys that smoked bad guys BECAUSE of their skill and training. And he was killed while TRYING TO RELOAD.....Hmmm wonder if HE wished he'd spent more time on reloads while everytrhing was going black.......

Look, you obviously feel that "least common denominator" training or no training at all is good enough. fine. Your choice. But arguing that training and or acquiring a higher level of skill is bad is just ludicrous.