Open Carry as a Civic Responsibility?

[JayC]

Dave,

I'm sorry but I have to disagree on a number of points...

First, rights are not granted by the Constitution, but are supposed to be protected by the Constitution... It's a very fine point but it's a critical point. As for the contitution changing, I agree, can you show me the amendment that changed the 2nd amendment? Jurisdictional review was not part of the Constitution and while it's one of the oldest violations, it is still a violation (not that we'll ever get rid of it now).

Second, I can believe that the 2nd Amendment does now restrain all levels of government (due to the passage of the 14th Amendment) while still allowing states the right to refuse federal regulation of firearms over intrastate commerce... Neither views contradict the Constitution or my fundamental views as you would have suggested. One is a questions of how the 14th Amendment impacts States the other is a complete end run around the 10th via the so called Commerce clause exception.

Third, I disagree that we may not see an end to this silliness in our lifetimes... If you had asked somebody living in B'ham about school integration during the 40's they would have thought you were crazy that SCOTUS and the federal government would force the issue and enforce it, but hey look at us 60 years later... Now the question is which side of the coin it lands on, and that is a question that should scare us.

Here is the problem... a number of people are happy to just go along to get along... They've got the ability to carry a firearm to protect themselves, why push the issue? Why push to have the 'right' we all believe is granted to us by our Creator to be restored in the great state of TN? Why rock the boat? We've got the privileged why should be be bothered to fight for the our rights or the rights of others?

Many are happy to concede their principals for the short term gain of being granted a right wrapped up in a neat package and price tag as a 'privilege'...

The problem we have in the pro-2A crowd is that too many of us are willing to compromise our rights because we're not impacted by the clearly unconstitutional laws (both the TN state and Federal Constitutions) on the books, because we're happy to pay for an 'exception' to these laws...

The fact is we can impact this fight, we just have to choose to do so....

We should draw a clear line in the sand, virtually all gun laws currently on the books violate the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution or Section 26 of the TN state constitution in some way shape or form. And while it may take us decades to repeal or address them all of these laws we should.

The fact is that any law-biding citizen should be allowed to purchase and carry any firearm of their choosing for self defense any where any police officer is allowed to carry. Anything less is both a violation of the rights we have been granted by our Creator, and protected by the Constitution (both federal and TN state).

No, you do not have a right to bear arms. You can claim that and you can do all the flag waving you like, but you absolutely do not have the right to bear arms.

The fact that some of us know and acknowledge the law does not mean we agree with it. This is not propaganda this is fact.

How would you suggest that we start standing up for our rights? Because I was arrested and jailed in Illinois for no crime other than having a gun in my car. I was young and dumb and thought I would fight it all the way to the SCOTUS….. You can’t.

Having a right to bear arms would mean that you can strap on a gun and walk down the street in any state in America. That will never happen.

My privilege of carrying a gun in Tennessee does not come from the 2nd amendment; it comes from my legislators. I feel that it is important that people know that and acknowledge it or we run the risk of losing that.

The SCOTUS has acknowledged that you have a right to own guns, but they have also said local government controls how and where you can carry them. We have a system put in place by our founding Fathers to interpret the Constitution and the legality of our laws. If you do not agree with it your Constitutional arguments are pointless.

At the time the 2nd amendment was written it was not seen as a problem for States Rights. Today it is. Several states claim the control of when and where guns are carried as a State Right. Montana and Tennessee (with others following) are leading the country in fighting the Feds over control of things the Feds claim to have. They have started by using firearms.

The SCOTUS does don’t want to rule on the right to bear arms. Why? Because if they rule that it is a right states like Illinois and the City of Chicago will simply defy the ruling. Some gun groups claimed a victory in Heller. Can the people of the city of Chicago legally own handguns now? No, the city claimed that the ruling does not apply to them and they will continue business as usual (as did other cities and states).

If they had ruled that the 2nd amendment is not an individual right it would open the door for states like California, Illinois and New York to totally outlaw guns. They didn’t want that either.

The Constitution changes (and it was designed that way). If it didn’t we would still have slavery and the state could make you take a test to vote (the voting test might be a good thing ).

We have never and will never fight a war over the 2nd amendment. However, we have fought a war over States Rights. (Yes, I know they are teaching in the schools now that we fought it over slavery, but that is just wrong)

So… Do I believe I have a right to bear arms? Yes, but it doesn’t come from the 2nd.

Now a question for you. If a bunch of states (even the pro gun ones like Tennessee) take the stand that gun control is a State Right; which side of that argument are you on?

Since you are implying that we are all sitting on our hands watching our rights being taken away; what do you suggest we do?

[Guest mosinon]

You are either a Troll or a Fool. Or both

No really, tell me how you feel. I'll admit I was joking about the cowboy thing, though there is a certain cleverness to it.

To be clear, since it can be hard to get jokes over the internet:

a)I support the right for any law abiding citizen to own, and carry a firearm without a permit.

I support concealed carry with a permit

c) I don't see permit holders as cowboys or vigilantes. I suspect that if you ran the data on violent crime committed by permit holders the rate would be insanely low.

d)this is here to make sure you're reading this closely. Turn your computer over and draw a star in the upper right hand corner.

e) the idea of dressing up as a cowboy and telling everyone I work at dollywood still cracks me up

So how about something a bit more substantial than an ad hom? I don't mind discussing this issue with you at all but it is hard to discuss allegations. Why am I a fool, why a troll? To discuss we need to see your reasoning. If it is because, given the option, I would not choose to carry even though I fully support the option to carry well that's a problem. I get it, I mean you can argue that it is like vaccinations, if I don't do it because I think everyone else will it is a problem but, man, If that is the reason, well, have a nice day and all.

[Guest crotalus01]

Points a and b contradict - any law abiding citizen should be able to carry as they wish, openly or concealed, without government intervention of any type. Additionally I believe that convicted felons should be able to own and bear arms once their debt to society has been paid. I see nowhere in the 2A that says otherwise.

Point c is correct.

Points d and e I wont bother with.

Your original post came across as trollish. IMHO, it is foolish to waste the time and money to get a permit that you are unwilling to use. Kinda like getting a drivers license while having no intention of learning to drive, much less owning a car.

If, however, that is the case it would be better for everyone in the long run if you did NOT carry after you got your permit. The problem (to me) is that you likely will eventually carry (maybe when you are going to be in that "bad" part of town one day), and you wont have the skills and training to handle a situation if one arises. And that is plain foolish.

[Guest H0TSH0T]

fyi you can open carry legally in ca without a permit, how ever there are tricky laws that will get you busted, like this one (its a matter of perception imo) but in ca if you put your hand on your gun it is considered concealed(permit needed for concealed carry). and in places like malls it must be unloaded while you carry, also in ca a loaded magazine is considered a loaded weapon. i lived in ca for many years, but have not lived there in the past 10 so some of this may have changed. but these were some of the laws 10 years ago after the Brady bill and the assault weapons ban by b.boxer and d.freak-show.

[Guest 270win]

If you want to openly carry a handgun without a license, you can go to Kentucky or Louisiana. Both states it is completely legal in and outside your car. Both states protect openly carrying firearms in their state constitutions. Tennessee does not protect open carry in its constitution, thus that is why the TN legislature has seen fit to 'regulate the wearing of arms' with permits. According to my reading, permits of one form or another have been around in this state for a long time, first from the county sheriffs and then the state. Carrying handguns has been on the books illegal since the late 1800's. I doubt open carry without some sort of permit will ever be legal again because it has been illegal for 130 years.

[Guest mosinon]

Points a and b contradict - any law abiding citizen should be able to carry as they wish, openly or concealed, without government intervention of any type.

I don't agree. Carrying openly is obvious to everyone around you. People can adjust. Carrying concealed is a different story. Though there is an argument to be made.

Additionally I believe that convicted felons should be able to own and bear arms once their debt to society has been paid. I see nowhere in the 2A that says otherwise.

I'm going to agree on personal principal but disagree in general. I think that once you pay your debt to society you should get to start over. This is an unpopular position. The general rule with this is that you voluntarily gave up your rights when you broke the law. That is why felons don't get to vote.

Points d and e I wont bother with.

Those were jokes, you'd get d if you shot at a particular range in east TN. But not everyone has a sense of humor so no big deal.

Your original post came across as trollish.

one of the problems with authorship is that the readers won't take the words you write in the way you intended. I'm good with this.

IMHO, it is foolish to waste the time and money to get a permit that you are unwilling to use. Kinda like getting a drivers license while having no intention of learning to drive, much less owning a car.

Weird, I don't think you can get a hcp or a drivers license without passing a test showing your are able to drive or able to shoot.

If, however, that is the case it would be better for everyone in the long run if you did NOT carry after you got your permit. The problem (to me) is that you likely will eventually carry (maybe when you are going to be in that "bad" part of town one day), and you wont have the skills and training to handle a situation if one arises. And that is plain foolish.

Well, I think it is plain foolish to walk around with a concealed weapon if you don't have the training as well. Of course you have to pass a test and get the training to get the permit.

But don't let me be the last word on this, let me quote a friend of mine who thinks, with some justification, that you shouldn't need a permit to carry concealed weapons:

Points a and b contradict - any law abiding citizen should be able to carry as they wish, openly or concealed, without government intervention of any type.

So you can take it up with that guy.

Edited October 1, 2009 by mosinon
added the letter l

[GoVols]

round and round we go

[Guest 270win]

You can cross the state line and openly or conceal carry a handgun in Arkansas without a license when on a journey, as long as you are 18 and not a convicted felon. I've never seen anyone openly carry back home when on a journey w/o a license....generally only hunters open carry handguns w/o licenses. If you are carrying on a license in AR when not on a journey or hunting, you must conceal.

I have openly carried handguns w/o a license in Arkansas when hiking (snake protection) or when having to do with hunting, such as riding in the truck/four wheeler to the woods...but never when 'on a journey' like at a rest stop or gas station in Arkansas w/o a license. Though technically legal, I never openly carried at Waffle House when traveling in Arkansas. I kept my handgun hidden...and did when I got my license and still do.

You could try it in Arkansas, if you are truly on a journey, and see what happens.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

;):popcorn: