Open Carry as a Civic Responsibility?

[DaveTN]

you're confusing me Dave...1st you say we have no "right", that it is a "privilege" given by the state of TN. but here, you say that you do have a right??????? can't have it both ways I'm afraid...which is it, right or privilege?

It comes from the same place that gives me the right to breath, eat, or drink. Self protection is a God given right; or at least it should be.

Let me save some time in case the atheists want to jump in… If you don’t believe in God, then wherever your right of survival comes from.

Is it recognized by the courts? Nope, no more than a right to bear arms is.

My privilege to protect myself and my family comes from the Tennessee legislature in the form of a privilege I can purchase from the state. That is recognized by the courts.

[DaveTN]

It seems that the constitution disagrees with you dave.

ARTICLE SIX OF THE CONSTITUTION

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States..)

Clause two provides that the Constitution, federal laws made pursuant to it and treaties made under its authority, constitute the supreme law of the land. It provides that state courts are bound by the supreme law; in case of conflict between federal and state law, the federal law must be upheld. Even state constitutions are subordinate to federal law.

Are you making an argument for the 2nd amendment or against States Rights?

[Guest mosinon]

It comes from the same place that gives me the right to breath, eat, or drink. Self protection is a God given right; or at least it should be.

Is it recognized by the courts? Nope, no more than a right to bear arms is.

I'm not arguing anything here just trying to figure out where this is going. Is there a difference between a natural right and other rights? I'm trying to ask if there is some natural right that just mentioned and a set of practical or semantic rights that revolve around the judicial system. I can see arguing either way.

This has been a really nice debate by the way, I'd usually pay 29.99 to watch something this interesting and I don't really have a dog in the fight. Though I am contemplating getting a HCP and not carrying just to add to the stats.

[DaveTN]

I'm not arguing anything here just trying to figure out where this is going. Is there a difference between a natural right and other rights?

I believe there are. Self defense and the right to stay alive is a God given right. I can’t protect myself from a thug with a gun with my bare hands.

Did anyone happen to see Gangland on the History Channel about Nashville? Did you listen to the gang banger that said he just enjoyed shooting stuff? My stuff he meant people. How do you protect yourself against someone like that without a gun? If he rolls up on you, you probably won’t have a chance anyway, but a least with a gun you could possibly have a chance.

This has been a really nice debate by the way, I'd usually pay 29.99 to watch something this interesting and I don't really have a dog in the fight. Though I am contemplating getting a HCP and not carrying just to add to the stats.

Why would you just want to add to the stats?

I don’t carry on my person very often, but I just wanted to be able to have a gun in my car, or carry if I go to Memphis. A late night trip to downtown Memphis was what caused me to get my permit.

[deafdogdief]

Sometimes even though the police officers know the law, they still will stop you and advise you to cover up. I was stopped once coming out of a friend's house to my car (50ft away) and an officer was down the street at a trafffic stop or something. He came yelling down the street and when he approached, informed me that 'we shoot people like you' - referrring to open carry. He was way out of bounds. He was shown no disprespect. Moral of the story... officers know the law and sometimes you will find a few that will not support you (most are great about it) and do you really want to argue with them? I repect and appreciate all law enforcement. As in any other profession there are always a few bad apples.

[Guest .45]

45… If you think I was calling you a jack ass, I apologize; I was not. If you look at what I wrote I think you will see that I was referring to the Illinois carry conversations.

you're right; I misread you...apologies. I should've read more closely...

I was jailed in Illinois for carrying without a permit. If a citizen in Tennessee carries without a permit they risk being jailed. Therefore there is no right.

I still respectfully disagree with you on this Dave... just because a right is being infringed upon, does not change the fact that it is still our right. it only ceases to be our right when we admit that it is not....or when they repeal the Constitution, whichever comes 1st.

...But my point was that if carry privileges are tied to the second amendment; that battle is over before it gets started.

again, they are carry rights...and I disagree that we cannot restore the 2nd Amendment to it's full intended stature. I think we can, and should endeavor to do so. as stated in my prev post, the State's Rights approach is a slippery slope. for example, what if California decides they no longer want freedom of religion....? etc, etc, etc.....

Yes, this is Tennessee and I don’t expect you to give a rip about Illinois. But I do. I also know that states like Illinois and California stand directly in the way of any meaningful reconizition of the 2nd amendment or any National Carry laws. If states like Illinois can get carry privileges it will help us all.

I completely agree with you on this one; for the same reason that I dislike the state's rights approach....what happens in one state eventually affects us all.

and yes, I do give a rip about Illinois...it's dangerously close to TN it's just that I don't necessarily think we can adopt an attitude that our rights are gone, simply because that's what happened in Illinois...

Self protection is a God given right; or at least it should be.

agreed, 1,000%.... I would also add that protecting one's family is not only a God-given right, it is a God-given responsibility.

My privilege to protect myself and my family comes from the Tennessee legislature in the form of a privilege I can purchase from the state.

there you go calling it a "privilege" again... Dave, they can charge you a fee for it...they can "call" it a "privilege", or whatever they'd like...they can even say that it is illegal. but none of that changes the fact that the US Constitution still stands; and unless/until it falls, it IS the RIGHT of every American to keep & bear arms.

Matthew made a great point earlier... so Dave, my question for you is this: why would want to perpetuate a myth that we no longer have the right to keep & bear arms? why are you willing to defend a statement that is not true? a statement that will do nothing but give power to the anti-gun agenda?

it doesn't matter what they call it...it is not a privilege, it is still our right.

now I'll wave the flag one last time, and go away...

PS - I'm sure you & I are after the same goal...just honestly think that saying things like "we have no right to bear arms", is doing more harm than good for our common goal. again no offense intended to ya Dave

.45

[Guest .45]

Though I am contemplating getting a HCP and not carrying just to add to the stats.

I agree w/Dave on this one...if you've got the permit, why wouldn't you carry, at least occasionally? practice 'till you're proficient, then strap that puppy on...

it'll be weird at first, but you'll probably learn to actually like it...at least that's been my experience.

and this brings us full circle back to Titan's original post....it may just help strengthen our rights for you to carry...

.45

[Guest .45]

Sometimes even though the police officers know the law, they still will stop you and advise you to cover up. I was stopped once coming out of a friend's house to my car (50ft away) and an officer was down the street at a trafffic stop or something. He came yelling down the street and when he approached, informed me that 'we shoot people like you' - referrring to open carry. He was way out of bounds. He was shown no disprespect. Moral of the story... officers know the law and sometimes you will find a few that will not support you (most are great about it) and do you really want to argue with them? I repect and appreciate all law enforcement. As in any other profession there are always a few bad apples.

while I don't OC...this was way out of line. you were right to respond respectfully...but you still should've gotten his badge # and reported him.

that is utter nonsense...if he shot you for lawfully OCing, he'd go to prison just as fast as you would for shooting him.... he's a bad reflection on the good cops, and needs to be dealt with by his superiors.

Edited September 28, 2009 by .45

[Guest mosinon]

I agree w/Dave on this one...if you've got the permit, why wouldn't you carry, at least occasionally? practice 'till you're proficient, then strap that puppy on...

.45

And the purpose of me carrying would be? I don't go anywhere dangerous, I'm 41 and have never felt threatened etc. There's just no reason for me to actually carry (I work from home btw). Plus I've got an iPhone and I'm sure there is a home defense app:)

That said while I feel that there is no reason for me to personally carry a weapon I do appreciate the fact that others can. And I fully support that privilege/right.

So I am willing to spend money and take a class to make the numbers of carriers look bigger not because it will help me in any immediately beneficial way but because I support the idea.

I really like the current set up a far as it goes. But that is a question of practicality. If you ask me a question about rights my answer would be very different.

[deafdogdief]

while I don't OC...this was way out of line. you were right to respond respectfully...but you still should've gotten his badge # and reported him.

that is utter nonsense...if he shot you for lawfully OCing, he'd go to prison just as fast as you would for shooting him.... he's a bad reflection on the good cops, and needs to be dealt with by his superiors.

It just so happens I knew his superior. He's probably whistlin' dixie through the other orifice now.

Edited October 1, 2009 by deafdogdief

[robin48]

I think TGO David for Governor......

I don't agree with David 100% on this issue, but I would damn sure vote for him for Gov

[macville]

And the purpose of me carrying would be? I don't go anywhere dangerous, I'm 41 and have never felt threatened etc. There's just no reason for me to actually carry (I work from home btw). Plus I've got an iPhone and I'm sure there is a home defense app:)

A lot of people I talk to tell me the exact same thing. They don't feel like they are in danger. So here's what I ask them when they tell me that. Do you feel safe? Yes.... Well, "feeling" safe doesn't really matter. It only matters if you are ACTUALLY safe. Since you don't chose the time/place to be robbed/raped/assaulted/murdered/etc, you can never be truly "safe."

Let's put it this way. I live in the smack dab middle of west Knoxville. When you look at the crime reports, it's the safest place to live in Knox county. However, just in the last week a KFC about 2 miles from my house was robbed. The Pizza Hut just over the hill, next to my church, was robbed at gun point (while my wife drive by 50 yards away). The perkins just down the street from the PH was robbed earlier this year, and so far about 6 banks in west knox have been robbed. Not to mention my neighbor's house was robbed between 6:30-7 AM on a VERY busy street--hard to believe someone didn't notice them walking out with a 50" TV. YOU AREN'T SAFE no matter what you think. I know that's a scary thought, but it's simply true. That's why it really irks me when someone says they don't understand why I would ever need a gun if I don't go into the "bad" parts of town. Crime happens EVERYWHERE! Yes, it may happen more often on the other side of town, but it still happens here. We never dreamed that something like the church shooting would happen here in Knoxville, but it did. The sooner you, and other people, realize that anything can happen to anyone at anytime, the easier it will be to get law abiding citizens to carry guns.

Matthew

[macville]

BTW, if you take the class, I bet you'll start carrying. It's a nice feeling to know that you are carrying a tool that won't give you an advantage in every situation, it will at least give you a better chance in some situations. And personally, I will take a better chance in any situation than no chance!

Matthew

[robin48]

And therefore arguing if it is a right or not is moot. If it is illegal for a citizen to carry a gun, as it is in Tennessee; it is not a right.

As I said the 2nd is in conflict with States Rights; pick a side. The city of Chicago and the state of Illinois is charged with maintaining a safe environment for the citizens. To do that the city has chosen to outlaw handguns and the state has chosen to outlaw carry. I do not agree that what they are doing prevents crime; but unless the Feds want to assume that responsibility they don’t have jack to say about it.

I am active in trying to get carry permits in Illinois and it pisses me off when an intelligent discussion is going on with someone and some jack ass turns it into a 2nd amendment debate. That battle has been fought and lost in Illinois. If they want to continue it, fine, but don’t tie it to carry permits.

If cops violate it every day; those that have been violated have recourse. Because the 4th protects us from “unreasonable†searches, the courts are constantly hearing cases on what is reasonable.

You may not agree with the court’s decision; but until another decision comes along; that is the way it will be.

You can call it that if you like; it would be more accurate than “The state of Tennessee is acknowledging my 2nd amendment rights.â€

You have been told since your first day of Drivers Education that driving is a privilege; not a right. You have to pay a fee and take a test. If you do not follow the rules your license will be revoked. Just like the HCP. Now how do you think that an HCP is a right in any way, shape or form?

NOTE: I have an HCP and I know exactly where it came from and who is responsible for me being able to carry and I appreciate them for it. I am not against it; I am merely pointing out that the state of Tennessee does not recognize the 2nd amendment as an individual right anymore than the state of Illinois. No rights are involved with an HCP. We are a “special Group†with special privileges that are not the rights or the privilege of all Tennessee citizens.

It is a right, that right has been infringed upon. And your point about the changing constitution is liberal bull. Amendments are added at times, but it is a lengthy complicated process. Rights are not taken away. Read the constitution, read the 2nd.

[TNTitan]

And the purpose of me carrying would be? I don't go anywhere dangerous, I'm 41 and have never felt threatened etc. There's just no reason for me to actually carry (I work from home btw). Plus I've got an iPhone and I'm sure there is a home defense app:)

...

Do you have a family? Do you ever leave your house? If you go anywhere in Knoxville you are potentially going someplace dangerous. Just because you havent had trouble in the past doesn't mean you are immune to it. This is kinda like saying I dont wear seatbelts because I dont drive dangerously.

My point is - danger might find YOU. Might be a good idea to be prepared when it does.

[VolunteerGuns]

use it or lose it. BFWIW there is a time and place for everthing.

[robin48]

Words on paper do not constitute a right in and of themselves - the citizen's freedom of behavior according to those words constitutes the right.

A right must be de facto, not merely de jure.

If you cannot exercise a right then it doesn't exist.

- OS

The constitution is not just "a piece of paper". I had friends that died to defend that "piece of paper"

[GoVols]

Do you have a family? Do you ever leave your house? If you go anywhere in Knoxville you are potentially going someplace dangerous. Just because you havent had trouble in the past doesn't mean you are immune to it. This is kinda like saying I dont wear seatbelts because I dont drive dangerously.

My point is - danger might find YOU. Might be a good idea to be prepared when it does.

+1 Danger will find you. Anywhere, anytime, anyone.

[Guest 270win]

I look at crime kind of like car accidents. I am not a big fan of wearing a seat belt...but I wear one. In a perfect world, I would only carry a gun for sport...this is not a perfect world and I do live in Shelby County outside Memphis. You can lessen your chances of avoiding trouble by say not going to the 'hood at 2AM, but sometimes it does come your way...I'd like to increase my chances..kind of like wearing a seatbelt..so i tend to carry a handgun most of the time.

But I do think we should all have the choice whether we want to carry a gun or wear a seat belt...to each his own. That is freedom.

[Oh Shoot]

The constitution is not just "a piece of paper". I had friends that died to defend that "piece of paper"

I'm of course not denigrating the intent of the constitution in any way, and to claim I am shows a shallow effort to confront the issue.

Germany had a constitution when Hitler came to power, too.

Several S.American nations have constitutions that are either ignored and control established by military junta, or have been changed by unlawful decree.

Let's see, an early example in our own - "all men created equal":

If you were a "******" or "injun" at the time, those were indeed words on paper only, considering your de facto treatment compared to white men, eh? Especially if you were an "injun", since your people continued to be slaughtered for 30 years or more even after the "******s" were "made equal".

My point being, if parts of our constitution are legislated so that they are no longer in fact able to be exercised, those words become hollow indeed. This has of course happened to any number of sections in it, with states' rights and firearm possession being among the most glaring examples.

- OS

edit: the **** is the forum software excising the "N" word for Negro. I attempted to use it for effect, same as "injun", which it allowed.

Edited September 28, 2009 by OhShoot

[Guest crotalus01]

I dont really think OC makes an impact on the majority of the public because most of them seem not to notice. And before we try and educate the general public about guns, maybe we should start with gun owners. You would be amazed at how ignorant of the laws many gun owners are, on everything from OC to NFA ownership. I actually encounter more problems taking my machnegun and silencers to the range than I ever have from OCing - half the shooters will tell me my guns and cans are illegal, the other half want to know what kind of special license I have

I say leave the public for later and lets educate our own first

[wjh2657]

"I think it’s safe to say that the "tactical advantage" of concealed carry has been argued ad nauseum and I think it is a very valid point when personal protection is your primary (and only) concern."

Under Tennessee Law it is your only concern and the only reason you are allowed to carry.

Most non-gun types are afraid of openly carried guns that aren't attached to a uniform. There are better ways of getting the message across than scaring the bejoosis out of little old ladies.

I open carry at home and when I take my walk with my wife at night, but I CC all other times. My gun is there to protect me and momma, not to make political statements.

[Guest mosinon]

A lot of people I talk to tell me the exact same thing. They don't feel like they are in danger. So here's what I ask them when they tell me that. Do you feel safe? Yes.... Well, "feeling" safe doesn't really matter. It only matters if you are ACTUALLY safe. Since you don't chose the time/place to be robbed/raped/assaulted/murdered/etc, you can never be truly "safe."

Let's put it this way. I live in the smack dab middle of west Knoxville. When you look at the crime reports, it's the safest place to live in Knox county. However, just in the last week a KFC about 2 miles from my house was robbed. The Pizza Hut just over the hill, next to my church, was robbed at gun point (while my wife drive by 50 yards away). The perkins just down the street from the PH was robbed earlier this year, and so far about 6 banks in west knox have been robbed. Not to mention my neighbor's house was robbed between 6:30-7 AM on a VERY busy street--hard to believe someone didn't notice them walking out with a 50" TV. YOU AREN'T SAFE no matter what you think. I know that's a scary thought, but it's simply true. That's why it really irks me when someone says they don't understand why I would ever need a gun if I don't go into the "bad" parts of town. Crime happens EVERYWHERE! Yes, it may happen more often on the other side of town, but it still happens here. We never dreamed that something like the church shooting would happen here in Knoxville, but it did. The sooner you, and other people, realize that anything can happen to anyone at anytime, the easier it will be to get law abiding citizens to carry guns.

Matthew

I live wester than you. And I'm fine with people carrying guns, I've got no problem at all with it.

And, of course, anything can happen at anytime. Well, not anything, there is no possible way a street mime would not be annoying. Anyway, yes I understand that there is a lot of uncertainty in life and it doesn't matter where I live, how many german trained, laser equipped pit bulls I have patrolling the area between the house and the moat something bad could happen. I get it.

One thing, of course, would be to carry a weapon everywhere. A lot of people do that an I think it is fine if that is what they want to do. I'm familiar with OhShoot and he likes to walk and such so it makes a lot of sense for him.

For me, it just isn't worth the hassle. I'll hassle with getting the license because I like the concept but I'm not going to carry a gun around cause I don't want to bother with it. If I wanted to do something concrete to extend my life I'd quit smoking. Well, I did that but the next thing I'd do is lose some weight. I'm much more likely to die of a heart attack than from the actions of a gang member or something. But you won't catch me on a stationary back or something, those things go wayy too slow. I rode one all day and I probably didn't move a foot.

And the last reason I don't, and probably won't carry, I have yet to find a holster that matches my skirt.

But if I ever do decide to carry I'm dressing up like a effin cowboy and strapping on two 44 revolvers with 8 inch barrels or something. I'll probably put a derringer in my boot as well. And you know why? Because then I won't have to worry about printing or accidentally exposing my weapon. Everyone will just think I'm some guy in a costume and that the guns are fake. If anyone asks I'll tell them my job is to chase the train at dollywood and yell "revenooers" while shooting into the air. The best way to hide something is in plain sight....

[JayC]

one example of open carry leading to arrest and trial in pennsyvania Pa. Patriot ARRESTED at the OC dinner @ The Old Country Buffet in Dickson City 5/9

Not in TN, different state laws... I'm sure you can find somebody who open carried in NYC that got arrested too, doesn't mean anything to somebody living and carrying in TN.

[Guest crotalus01]

I live wester than you. And I'm fine with people carrying guns, I've got no problem at all with it.

And, of course, anything can happen at anytime. Well, not anything, there is no possible way a street mime would not be annoying. Anyway, yes I understand that there is a lot of uncertainty in life and it doesn't matter where I live, how many german trained, laser equipped pit bulls I have patrolling the area between the house and the moat something bad could happen. I get it.

One thing, of course, would be to carry a weapon everywhere. A lot of people do that an I think it is fine if that is what they want to do. I'm familiar with OhShoot and he likes to walk and such so it makes a lot of sense for him.

For me, it just isn't worth the hassle. I'll hassle with getting the license because I like the concept but I'm not going to carry a gun around cause I don't want to bother with it. If I wanted to do something concrete to extend my life I'd quit smoking. Well, I did that but the next thing I'd do is lose some weight. I'm much more likely to die of a heart attack than from the actions of a gang member or something. But you won't catch me on a stationary back or something, those things go wayy too slow. I rode one all day and I probably didn't move a foot.

And the last reason I don't, and probably won't carry, I have yet to find a holster that matches my skirt.

But if I ever do decide to carry I'm dressing up like a effin cowboy and strapping on two 44 revolvers with 8 inch barrels or something. I'll probably put a derringer in my boot as well. And you know why? Because then I won't have to worry about printing or accidentally exposing my weapon. Everyone will just think I'm some guy in a costume and that the guns are fake. If anyone asks I'll tell them my job is to chase the train at dollywood and yell "revenooers" while shooting into the air. The best way to hide something is in plain sight....

You are either a Troll or a Fool. Or both