Open Carry as a Civic Responsibility?

[Smith]

Why are so many pro CC's so anti OC, yet OC's don't seem to have a problem with CC ?

There is ONE thing I am sick and tired of hearing, "CC for the tactical advantage".

If it is sooo tactically superior, then why don't the LEO Tact teams CC? Seems like they would want to have a "tactical" advantage. I am not opposed to CC, but I think that OC does a good job of desensitizing sheeple to firearms. I have already seen it work at some of the local places that I frequent.

Apples and bananas. I'm pretty sure the the uniforms, teams with sub-machine guns, movements, and announcing "POLICE! OPEN UP" already ruins the surprise. Why are the undercover guys and detectives usually concealed? It's like poker. Once you've shown 'em you're out of the game. However, if no one knows what you got you have a lot more moves.

[Guest TackleberryTom]

if no one knows what you got you have a lot more moves.

Yep, more moves.....lift/untuck shirt, reach under shirt, then finally draw your weapon...snag on shirt..if, they didn't figure out what you were doing first. Obviously being overly sarcastic. But, not really the point of this thread.

[kwe45919]

Boy there are sure a lot of good sane points in this post. Surprised it hasn't gone overboard and gotten locked.

Any ways, both CC and OC have thier advantages and their places. When I'm around other gun owners (ie range, gun shop) I might actually OC on purpose BECAUSE I CAN and these are places that people wont get freaky on you for carrying on gun on your hip. However, I wouldn't advise OC'ing into a funeral for the opposite reason mentioned above. Imagine how many people would absoutly go ape sh*t as you walked in to sit on the pew.

Maybe everyone should try to OC every now and again for poops and giggles when they know they have extra time to deal with the extra harrasment from people. It's actually quite fun!!

[MudBugjr]

You miss my point. Only a quality duty holster OWB will have the necessary retention device built in so when the thugs mug you it will be harder for them to get your gun. I only OC in the country ( I would never OC in the city) Police have arrested people for disturbing the peace by open carrying if they want to be a jackass about it. And don't be naive , because its not against the law means squat.

Not trying to start some long debate but even an LEO unsnapps or unhooks his firearm to have it more accessable before a problem presents itself. I've seen them do that just for a speeding ticket. I wouldn't lock down my firearm to where I had to fumble and unsnapp or unhook in the time of need. And if i get arrested for OC'n my attorney will have a hay day with the city or state!

[molonlabetn]

Having a means of protection and being prepared to implement it yourself is your responsibility... regardless of how you choose to do so. OC isn't a 'statement'... it's just nobody elses business, if that's your choice...

That doesn't mean everybody won't be welcome to their own opinion about your actions or my actions... But flaunting it in their faces as if to say "I can do this and you can't stop me" isn't the point at all.

In this state, OC is legal, and as long as it is not under attack legislatively there is no real 'activism' that can be accomplished by trying to turn a what-should-be-seen-as-normal mode of carry into some blatant statement... I would much rather that FEWER people care, and agree it is reasonable to conclude that if everyone who carried concealed now, carried openly it would eventually come to be seen as normal... but realistically, it is more convenient for most people to conceal... and that is (should be) the same reason some of us carry openly at times, because it's more convenient (for whatever reason, clothing choice, accessibility, environment, build, holster/weapon preference, etc...).

OCing is sorta like those houses with the signs in the front yard indicating they have a security system... it's intended to be a deterrent (and in alot of cases it is). But it's not a social or political statement, and as such is not a 'responsibility' for anyone to do... it's just a choice, and I personally abhor ridiculous public demonstrations about choices, as if life was some kind of commercial.

Good topic, yer right!

[Guest danxd45]

Police have arrested people for disturbing the peace by open carrying if they want to be a jackass about it. And don't be naive , because its not against the law means squat.

Do you live in Tennessee 2HOW?

This is not the case where I live. I conceal mostly due to my job (Im a contractor and spend alot of time in and around peoples houses). But I am not one bit worried about being arrested for carrying openly in the Memphis area. I have open carried to the movies, grocery store, gas stations, etc. I think it is a good thing for people to see private citezens carrying guns. You would be amazed at how many people think that only police can carry a gun. I'm not trying to push an agenda, or change peoples opinions at the ballot box. But I do hope that I can educate people on the laws of my state, Which clearly allow open carry.

I'm disappointed with the responses of alot of the members here on open carry. I completly respect your opinions, but why discourage others from doing as they see fit?

[TNTitan]

...

I'm disappointed with the responses of alot of the members here on open carry. I completly respect your opinions, but why discourage others from doing as they see fit?

I think the reason is because many CC'ers think OC'ers are actually doing a disservice to 2nd amendment rights.

[MCSCOTT]

Why are so many pro CC's so anti OC, yet OC's don't seem to have a problem with CC ?

There is ONE thing I am sick and tired of hearing, "CC for the tactical advantage".

If it is sooo tactically superior, then why don't the LEO Tact teams CC? Seems like they would want to have a "tactical" advantage. I am not opposed to CC, but I think that OC does a good job of desensitizing sheeple to firearms. I have already seen it work at some of the local places that I frequent.

Maybe we need to push for OC as a constitutional right, like many other states. What do the anti OC's think about Kentucky's laws? Do you despise them? If you do, I question your loyalties.

I take our current state law at face value, it is legal to carry a handgun CC or OC with a permit. I do not try to " interpret" the laws the way I see fit. I also take the Constitution on face value as well. Hopefully our state will do that too. A right that is not exercised is a right will be lost. OC with true American Pride!!

Not really trying to argue, as I do agree with some of your points. Things may be different now than they were when I was hanging around with LEO's all the time, but most of them I knew back then carried a backup that was concealed. Their standard side arm is openly carried as it is in fact easier for them to get to, but this is mainly because their job is to intentionally put themselves in danger and need the ability on a regular basis to be ready for anything. Their concealed backup is there for a different kind of tactical advantage in that if their standard side arm should be taken away they have the chance to use the one they have hidden from the criminal. Most of the same bunch also carried concealed when they were off duty. Not sure if the LEO's are even allowed to do all of this anymore though as I haven't been around too many of them in a few years.

Point to all that being that there are tactical advantages to both forms of carrying depending on the situation, but most non-LEO HCP folks don't intentionally go into a situation where they know at any minute the person they are about to talk to could attempt to harm them.

I also see both sides of the fence on the political issues mentioned in this thread. The folks that get nervous when they see someone open carrying could easily end up causing us all to lose that privilege in the future. I see that if everyone openly carried then the general population might calm down some on the issue, but I'm not really willing to take the chance on losing our right to do so in order to try to calm the general population down on the issue. The main reason I am glad we have the right to OC in the first place is that I don't have to worry as much about the brandishing laws that I've heard about in other places should I happen to reach for my wallet and someone sees that I'm carrying.

Just throwing my personal opinions out there, though as right now they mean nothing since I wont have my HCP until the end of the year. Great thread though on these subjects.

[molonlabetn]

I think the reason is because many CC'ers think OC'ers are actually doing a disservice to 2nd amendment rights.

Just like some hunters think other gun-owners with so-called 'assault weapons' do... it's really the same argument, if you will. Some people try to colour a right as something with limits based on social perceptions, and enact legislation to take them away for emotional reasons, or reduce them to being percieved as priviledges... when in-fact no government ever granted any right, including this one, to have the authority to take it away. Laws don't create or remove rights... all they can do is define them, and those definitions are as imperfect as the humans who write or interpret them. Lucky are we to live in a country where the individual right of firearms possession is at least generally aknowledged.. But, when a majority agrees to ignore or be biased about something, it effectively creates a new temporary 'truth'. That's the real issue... back on topic, the idea is to educate the majority, not shock or fight them.

[Mike.357]

Police have arrested people for disturbing the peace by open carrying

Where and when?

PS: nice to see you back Eddie.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Mike.357

[Guest 2HOW]

Do you live in Tennessee 2HOW?

This is not the case where I live. I conceal mostly due to my job (Im a contractor and spend alot of time in and around peoples houses). But I am not one bit worried about being arrested for carrying openly in the Memphis area. I have open carried to the movies, grocery store, gas stations, etc. I think it is a good thing for people to see private citezens carrying guns. You would be amazed at how many people think that only police can carry a gun. I'm not trying to push an agenda, or change peoples opinions at the ballot box. But I do hope that I can educate people on the laws of my state, Which clearly allow open carry.

Well there are a handful of places that most people wont get hassled. Remember the kid at the store in Knoxville , works at the gun shop there. TV news. I'm all for it , but it leaves you open for a lot of problems. The negatives far outweigh the positives IMO

[Guest 2HOW]

Where and when?

PS: nice to see you back Eddie.

There have been many instances in different states Mike, how about the group up in Ma. It was on youtube, several here in TN. over the last few years, cant give you time and place, (I dont document these) But I do remember the press on it . Just saying its not worth it.

[molonlabetn]

PS: nice to see you back Eddie.

Thanks, good to be back

[backj2]

one example of open carry leading to arrest and trial in pennsyvania Pa. Patriot ARRESTED at the OC dinner @ The Old Country Buffet in Dickson City 5/9

[Guest danxd45]

Well there are a handful of places that most people wont get hassled. Remember the kid at the store in Knoxville , works at the gun shop there. TV news. I'm all for it , but it leaves you open for a lot of problems. The negatives far outweigh the positives IMO

I would definitely say that there are more than a handful of places.

I understand what you were saying more clearly I think. You didnt mean that you will be arrested, but rather might be based on a few isolated events. The way you worded your first post, it sounded like you meant that you would be arrested anywhere on the spot if a LEO saw you open carrying....

Anywho, back on topic.

I dont open carry on a regular basis, only ocasionally. But I definitly don't buy into the "open carring does a disservice to the 2A community".

[backj2]

another pennsylvania arrrest and trial for legal open carry MTN Jack ARRESTED for OC near Obama rally site!

[Guest jackdm3]

JONSAIGA,

If you're not from here (VA) you probably wouldn't know that raccoons are like the state mascot or something in TN. We have a ton of them in the middle of Memphis, there are plenty to dispatch and they pester our gorgeous Maine Coon. See if I'm wrong, but I'd probably get it off your avatar. Way too much evidence.

[Guest Muttling]

I think the reason is because many CC'ers think OC'ers are actually doing a disservice to 2nd amendment rights.

I think there's a difference between appropriate OC and OC to make a political statement.

I carry for personal protection and no other reason. I have a voice and speak my mind when I want to make a political statement.

At my favorite store for adult beverages, all the workers OC and I think it's a very appropriate statement. They're letting potential thieves know they are carrying and I like that.

When I go to a restraunt or Walmart, I'm not looking to brag and proclaim that I'm armed....I see no point in it. That said, I am typically armed.

Using the holster to make a political statement simply fortifies the arguments of the anti-gun loby who wants to paint us all as gun crazed braggers on a power trip. When I say, "We've had dinner together for years and you never knew I was armed" my friends are usually stunned. I also not that "If we had been jumped in the parking lot, I was ready." They typically ask how often that happens, and we typically have a mutual friend who has been robbed or attacked. One of my coworkers was chased by 5 young men in her own subdivision 2 weeks ago.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Muttling

[Jonsaiga]

JONSAIGA,

If you're not from here (VA) you probably wouldn't know that raccoons are like the state mascot or something in TN. We have a ton of them in the middle of Memphis, there are plenty to dispatch and they pester our gorgeous Maine Coon. See if I'm wrong, but I'd probably get it off your avatar. Way too much evidence.

There is no evidence to hide with my avatar as it was killed legally.

[Guest 270win]

Like I stated earlier the big problem with Tennessee is that carrying period, open or concealed, in public is presumed illegal...as opposed to Louisiana or Virginia where open carry is automatically presumed legal...and then CONCEALED carry is illegal, unless you are say LEO or have a license/permit.

Another reason why I conceal is for legal reasons. Tennessee is not the greatest when it comes to gun CARRY laws. I'd honestly rather have California's carry laws (not gun purchase laws) as opposed to Tennessee's. With a CA license, you can carry anywhere basically that off duty police can carry, including schools. A Tennessee permit does not afford us the same luxury. I do not want to have a full sized 1911 in the open, walk around downtown Nashville where I'm not from, and mistakingly carry on Vanderbilt property and get caught and charged (many police now have absolutely no common sense and lack discretion) b/c someone SEES my weapon. If my weapon is concealed, and I mistakingly walk somewhere I'm not suppposed to be legally....then I just quietly leave and don't have to fool with hiring a lawyer and bail myself out of jail for carrying on school grounds. There are other such laws, such as the park law that isn't that well written, that could be a pitfall for the open carrier and is not worth the hassle for me missing a stupid proper 'sign' that results in me getting charged by a cop on a power trip who isn't nice enough to say "Just take it to your car". If my gun is concealed, I have no problems.

Tennessee has to remove these pitfalls for LEGAL people with permits before I feel comfortable openly carrying outside of hunting/fishing/target shooting. It is kind of stupid for the state to make a criminal out of someone who has a permit already and treat them the same as someone without a permit just because they are on school grounds....so so stupid. What is the point of a permit?

Edited September 26, 2009 by 270win

[Glock30Owner]

Razorback, I can understand your reluctance to OC in Nashville (due to unfamiliararity). I would probably feel the same if I when to Memphis.

If you ever happen to come to Nashville and would like an OC partner to help you out with the pitfalls, give me a hollar. We can walk all over downtown Nashville and chat with various people (except the bums... why do they run when they see my gun on my hip??). We could even take a trip over to the Bicentenial Mall (State Park) where you have no chance of being legally arrested (I use the modifier as police can arrest anyone at anytime if they so choose for anything).

Since I do OC in Nashville at all times (and have been for over a year) I can say that, in my experience, MNPD could care less if you are OCing and most people won't care either.

Could a misinformed officer ruin your day? Sure, that can happen anywhere. Could someone call in a MWAG to 911? Sure, that can happen anywhere too.

[Guest sermon8r]

I lost my OC virginity last night......went to C-Store and bought a Diet Pepsi....Kimber in full view on hip.....shirt tucked in ...... No one even noticed....

[GLOCKMEISTER]

if you OC your just asking for trouble, if no one knows then nothing will be said or done.

[Guest .45]

Whew.. I know this is a can of worms, but I was hoping to get some polite discussion about the idea of Open Carrying as a method by which the General Public can be exposed to law-abiding citizens exercising their rights.

I think it’s safe to say that the "tactical advantage" of concealed carry has been argued ad nauseum and I think it is a very valid point when personal protection is your primary (and only) concern. That’s not the focus of this thread, but rather, do you think that HCP holders would be less likely to be seen as crazies or dangerous citizens if the general public was more aware of what was going on around them? Out of sight, out of mind right? If the general public never sees responsible citizens carrying guns and only hears about guns in negative contexts (crimes, media, etc.) is it possible that we, as concealed carriers, are contributing to the future infringement of our rights? I mean even some Law Enforcement are taken aback when they see OC’ers, simply because they’re not used to seeing it.

Forgive the awful comparison, but I remember when Bluetooth headsets came out for the first time. People stared and laughed at the 1st (brave?) Bluetooth owners, but very soon they were everywhere and now almost nobody notices who is wearing something in their ear or not. I wonder if we could see something analogous for gun owners in the future? Wouldn’t this be a good thing for 2nd amendment proponents? I’ve got no real agenda here and I welcome your input.

Titan -

you make a very good point, though I don't necessarily feel that OC is the answer...

1) "when in Rome..." don't OC around tree-huggin' city folk, and expect it to be warmly welcomed.

2) OC is COMPLETELY legal w/appropriate carry permit, and if anyone chooses to do so, I have no prob with it.

3) can't believe that some on this site have apparently accepted the incorrect statement that carry is a "privilege"...BS. if this were true, the 2nd Amendment would read, "...the right to keep arms." however, this is not the case...we Americans have the right to "keep AND bear...".

I know the cheesy state video at permit class says handgun carry is a "privilege"...but that doesn't make the statement any less incorrect. to say that carry by a law-abiding American citizen, in any form, is a "privilege", is in direct contradiction to the 2nd Amendment.

make no mistake gentlemen...we have the right to keep and bear our arms. and the more we accept these kinds of incorrect statements/infringements on said right...the sooner the anti's will take that right from us.

4) that said, I don't think OC is the answer to educating the gun-fearing "sheeple".... I think that would be a bit like starting a child's mathematics training w/calculus. instead, I suggest establishing a more gun-friendly mind-set first...then working toward OC becoming socially acceptable.

"training", of any kind, is a gradual process...we cannot just throw the sheeple into the deep end of the pool. we must take deliberate, gradual steps toward the goal... just my

[TNTitan]

4) that said, I don't think OC is the answer to educating the gun-fearing "sheeple".... I think that would be a bit like starting a child's mathematics training w/calculus. instead, I suggest establishing a more gun-friendly mind-set first...then working toward OC becoming socially acceptable.

I really like this point. So lets say you are right an OC is not the answer. How does John Q Citizen help "establishing a more gun-friendly mind-set" in his community?

if you OC your just asking for trouble, if no one knows then nothing will be said or done.

Phil's right. NOTHING will be said or done. But that also means nothing GOOD will be said or done. If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound? If 200,000 TN permit holders carry concealed, does anyone know? (or care?). What will soccer mom and Joe Leftwing think about guns when its their turn at the ballot box?