Socialists for gun rights

[TGO David]

Can we take up a collection and buy Ralph a one way ticket to the former Soviet Union so that he can experience socialized medicine first hand?

[Rightwinger]

Grey Hound is the "people's" choice of budget transportation!

[strickj]

So your complaint with with health insurance rather than health care.

I have complaints with both,but most of whats wrong stems from ins,yes.

Don't get me wrong here,I'm not saying I want Government ins,I'm just saying its not as bad as your far right ideologists fear.

What I am saying,is something has to be done with how people get their health care.At this point I couldn't give a rats ass how its done,as long as something is done

[Guest Muttling]

Can we take up a collection and buy Ralph a one way ticket to the former Soviet Union so that he can experience socialized medicine first hand?

ohhh.....Now don't be that way....

You're confusing the issues with the facts and you know how that offends.

On a more serious note, capitalism and democracy are painful things to try to make work but they're the best things we've come up with yet. Health care and education are a problem as they don't generate proffit unless you fail to give them to the people who need them most.

How to make health care and education work in a capitalistic society are a real challange.

Then we have our retirement system (social security). It's the biggest ponzie scheme in the history of the world and it's set for collapse with the baby boomer retirement wave.

The time for less painful answers to solve these problems is WAY past. Generation X and Generation Y (or whatever they're called now) is going to have to be the bad guys that make the hard decisions that previous generations avoided decade after decade. It's gonna be ugly, but reality is never pretty and previous generations who are now retiring are going to be paying the piper.

The more quickly we accept this reality, the less painful it will be. The longer we let it go and run with the current system, the less we will be able to do. Today's system works.......for a few more years. Then it collapses.

On a party note and a cons v lib note, I'm not taking sides and blame both equally for the stupidity that has lead us hear (both have more than enough blame to share.) When we get a party that is serious about balancing the budget, killing pork, paygo, etc. I'll vote for them consistently.

[Worriedman]

Worriedman, the Hitler quote is actually a pretty well documented fake.

So noted, (picked it up form a notable Gun Quote site), properly chastised. What about the rest of them?

And I replace that one with this from another wonderful socialist who was so concerned with his fellow mans individual liberty:

"All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party." Mao Tse Tung

[Worriedman]

From the OP:

Socialists would love to see a society free of violence

Here is another view of that perspective from someone I respect:

Are you considering backing gun control laws? Do you think that because you may not own a gun, the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment don't matter?

CONSIDER THIS...

In 1929 the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, approximately 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, 13 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, the mentally ill, and others, who were unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million "educated" people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Since we should learn from the mistakes of history, the next time someone talks in favor of gun control, find out which group of citizens they wish to have exterminated.-Paul Harvey

As this thread started with the reporting of thoughts generated by other than a member, retorts of the same ilk seem credible.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Worriedman

[USMCJG]

The thing I found particularly interesting about the socialist article is their rather vehement criticism of liberals. Few conservatives these days differentiate between liberals and socialists. There is a big difference, as socialists will tell you.

Yes, it's true, liberals hate socialists and socialists hate liberals. In fact, "liberals"(far-left democrats who refer to themselves, and who the media refers to, as "liberals")hate liberals too, because they are, in fact, socialists and not actual liberals in any way, shape, or form. They simply stole the word liberal because referring to themselves by their true definition, Socialists, would not be appealing to the vast majority of Americans. It's much like when they refer to themselves as "caring", rather than as "controlling". Of course all Democrats are not full-blown socialists, but the inmates who are running their asylum certainly seem to be. I don't want it to seem like I'm picking on Democrats too much here, there are very few Republicans who are actually true Republicans(those who believe in and support the fundamental ideas and ideals upon which the Republic was founded, ex.- very limited Federal government) either. The RINOs are the bane of the Republican party.

If anyone would really like to know what actual liberals believe in , I'll tell you. Actual liberals believe in, get ready for it, LIBERTY. Yes, that's right. Actual liberals love freedom. Actual liberals hate big government or anything else that stifles individual or economic freedoms, including the freedom of companies to run their businesses as they see fit, and yes even to make a profit. Taking from those who would work to give to those who would not is certainly not a true liberal ideal.

IMO, if you want to see the quality and availability of health care plummet, let the government run it. If you want to see health care become more affordable, more available, and of higher quality, reduce government control and increase competition. It's not like we are traveling uncharted waters here, we can see the results of socialized medicine in many other countries. And the results are not so rosy, except for those who rule and those who would prefer to be provided for rather than to provide for themselves. The tax burden on subjects in socialist countries is outrageous. We are not getting what we are paying for with our tax dollars now. There is no reason to believe that allowing the government more control could ever result in a greater return on our investment. We already know that it has never happened thus far. Increased competition ALWAYS reduces costs and increases quality. Decreased competition ALWAYS increases costs and reduces quality. This is economics 101.

Cliff

[Mark@Sea]

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under

the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist

program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without

knowing how it happened."

Norman Thomas

Liberal, socialist, whatever. The goals are the same, from where I sit.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Mark@Sea

[USMCJG]

"The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under

the name of 'liberalism' they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist

program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without

knowing how it happened."

Norman Thomas

Or I could have just said that. That is much more succinct and to the point than my rant above. Hard to believe a socialist would lay it out so plainly and many of us would still be too blind to see it. Edited September 29, 2009 by USMCJG

[Punisher84]

As long as the issues are the only things being attacked, all is well. When members begin attacking members, the moderators have to intervene.

Can we take up a collection and buy Ralph a one way ticket to the former Soviet Union so that he can experience socialized medicine first hand?

[Guest CK1]

I think the point that the OP is trying to make, or at least what I get from this is that not ALL those with left-leaning political views are anti-gun.

IMO the main problem in all these debates stems from the fact that for whatever reason seems everyone has got to pick a side and strictly adhere to one's sides views and not choose what's actually best based on the different situations presented.

You don't have to be a socialist to realize that 1% of the population controlling 95% of our country's wealth while the rest of the population is distracted fighting for their piece of the remaining 5% doesn't bode well for our country's well-being.

Unless you are lucky enough to be in that wealthiest 1%, health care in America sucks... Yet it's the most expensive in the world no matter what your wealth is, that's a problem.

Every veteran or person over 65 in our country has access to affordable government backed health care AND still has the option to choose private care if they wish and can afford it... doesn't turn them all into socialists, just has them healther and wealthier than they'd otherwise be.

[Rightwinger]

It generally was not luck that made those wealthy folks wealthy.

If you invent the next "big thing", are you willing to state you would give up 95% of your earnings from your intellect, your drive to bring to market something everyone is willing pay a certain price point for?

If so, back it off and start doing it now. Integrity has no price point.

[USMCJG]

Every veteran or person over 65 in our country has access to affordable government backed health care AND still has the option to choose private care if they wish and can afford it... doesn't turn them all into socialists, just has them healther and wealthier than they'd otherwise be.

I won't respond to the rest of it, but it's obvious you've never been cared for by the VA. The quality and real world timely availability of government health care for our veterans is atrocious at best.

[TripleDigitRide]

So, who's going to see Capitalism: A Love Story?

[Rightwinger]

Read the book and its a CLASSIC ! Lots of drama but always a good ending as long as you don't let it get edited by younger writers.

[Guest CK1]

I won't respond to the rest of it, but it's obvious you've never been cared for by the VA. The quality and real world timely availability of government health care for our veterans is atrocious at best.

Well it's not like the health care system as we currently know it wouldn't have any qualms with collecting inflated premiums from them too... It's a free country! (if you look into it seems the majority of Vets have a positive health care experience compared to the averege American when it comes to their care)

I'll have to pick up this thread tomorrow since I have to work in the morning and make sure that I have my $1200.00 health insurance payment for next month...

[Mark@Sea]

Now theres' a lead in - not all socialistas are anti-gun (just the ones not in power ) so government run healthcare would be just great! I must be missing something here.

And, pssst, its' a secret, so don't let it slip, but the fed and states are planning billions in medicare cuts.

Probably the only 'secret' the NYT has been able to keep mum on...

[USMCJG]

Well it's not like the health care system as we currently know it wouldn't have any qualms with collecting inflated premiums from them too... It's a free country! (if you look into it seems the majority of Vets have a positive health care experience compared to the averege American when it comes to their care)

As a former Marine who knows a lot of wounded and permanently disabled vets, I don't need to look into it. I already know quite well how the VA works, thank you very much. I just thank God I buy my own health insurance and don't have to go to the VA. Edited September 29, 2009 by USMCJG

[Guest earthworm]

... to see writers from any & all points on the political spectrum admit that gun control is not & never has been about controlling/reducing crime but to disarm/control some religious,racial,or socio-economic group,as the most cursory look at history confirms.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

In response to the OP, there is a huge difference between socialists, modern liberals (a.k.a progressives), and the classical liberal. Especially on issues like gun control.

Socialism is one of those things that looks great on paper, but never works because we don't live in a social laboratory.

"Progressives" have their heart in the right place, but seem to create problems where they don't exist, or seem to form emotional uneducated solutions without really diving into the issue.

Finally, with classic liberals I can generally have a thoughtful debate. I won't always agree with them, but they'll "die for my right" to speak my mind.

Sadly, many idiots have taken the title of 'liberal' (and this happens to conservatives as well) and muddied the term. It would be nice to see some honest debate from the left, but the loudest voices seem to be the ones with the fewest brain cells.

[Guest Hyaloid]

So noted, (picked it up form a notable Gun Quote site), properly chastised. What about the rest of them?

And I replace that one with this from another wonderful socialist who was so concerned with his fellow mans individual liberty:

No chastising here, just FYI! I enjoyed your post.

[leroy]

Can we take up a collection and buy Ralph a one way ticket to the former Soviet Union so that he can experience socialized medicine first hand?

You can count on me for a contribution (if its one way). We can take up some xtra money for a laptop so he can send us quips from the "mudderland" and tell us how great the great socialist worker's utopia is.

Leroy

[Guest Ralph G. Briscoe]

I'm going to pirate some music tonight just for you. Only because I'm sure that God feels it's a shame that the human ability to produce music is considered an "industry".

Unfortunately 90% of it deserves to be referred to as industrial product....or simply "crap."

[Guest Ralph G. Briscoe]

Did I miss where there is documented, irrefutable, unbiased proof provided by a disinterested third party that unequivocally bears forth that the MAJORITY of Americans want health care reform?

>>>Look up every reputable poll--I don't feel compelled to provide references for things that are known by most people who pay attention...gravity for example.

I'll concede that most people think that the health insurance companies need to be better regulated, but I won't concede that health care needs to be improved, nor will I concede that Americans do not have universal access to health care at a very basic level.

>>>Duh--of course we're talking access to healthcare, and we can all go to the emergency room and wait 8 hours and pay 10 times as much...like that do you?

[Guest Ralph G. Briscoe]

Well,from someone thats been ****ed for a few million dollars from our "great" health care,I can tell you that it cant possibly get any worse for patients.

From someone who's been on both sides of it (ins from private,and through SS) I can say without a doubt that the ins bean counters are far worse.

The amount I pay for ins from SS is about what I would pay if I could get private ins,the only difference is I actually get to use the insurance I have now,because some great multi-million dollar bean counter isn't telling me I cant

Good, rational post. Prepare to be called a socialist commie fascist and asked to move to Russia:) by our wingnut brethren.

Seriously...sorry to hear about your difficulties. You're not alone, and hopefully things will improve under this administration.