Why Anti-Immigrant Rhetoric Will Cost The GOP

[Guest GT_Rat]

Probably right about at zero.

In my experience illegals want to avoid contact with officialdom as much as possible.

I'd put money on you being wrong. If it's secure enough to get them a drivers license (which it is) then it's secure enough to get them a voter registration card. There is no benefit to not trying to be able to vote and every benefit to try to vote for politicians that will make illegal immigration easier or non-criminal.

[The Rabbi]

Businesses were doing just fine before illegal immigration became a problem.

That is the most clueless statement I have seen so far in this discussion.

In fact they were not "doing just fine." In fact, there is a serious shortage of unskilled (and some highly skilled) labor here. Thus the problem. If there was no demand there would be no supply.

As for going the legal route, currently the process takes years and is very costly. Any immigrant can attest to this. This is the driver for illegal immigration. Would you want to wait years for your HCP? For a drivers license? No one does. Thus the incentive to cheat by going illegally is enormous. And the penalty is minimal. So what if you deport someone? There was a case not too long ago of a group of Nigerians being deported, for the third and fourth time. You want to continue sending people back to Nigeria?

If you made a system of fast visa approval combined with a biometric ID you would go a very long way to solving these issues. You would encourage people to go through official channels. You would have a record of who this person is. If he got picked up for theft or whatever you could check his record. Currently too many people are "Jose Garcia" today and last week they were Raul Guiterrez and last month they were someone else again. A system like that wouldn't eliminate border sneaking (nothing will) but it will cut down on the largest part of it.

[molonlabetn]

I thought you didnt want penalties for victimless crimes?

I recall saying that the only laws which actually work are those which punish bad behavior, not prohibit objects.

This is what I said: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15076&postcount=60

Sneaking into this country to take advantage of health-care which they do not pay for, among other things, is indeed victimizing everyone who does.

[The Rabbi]

I recall saying that the only laws which actually work are those which punish bad behavior, not prohibit objects.

This is what I said: http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showpost.php?p=15076&postcount=60

Sneaking into this country to take advantage of health-care which they do not pay for, among other things, is indeed victimizing everyone who does.

Drug dealing is both bad behavior and illegal. And laws against it dont seem to be working too well.

Immigrants are not sneaking here to take advantage of health care. Most of them are younger and healthy anyway and dont need it. They end up using it (those who do, and in far fewer numbers than native-born Americans of similar socio-economic status) when they get sick because they have little choice in the matter. I dont doubt abuse goes on, but keep it in perspective.

[molonlabetn]

Your list of ills has nothing to do with illegal immigration. The act of walking over the border never hurt anyone. You are supposing that every person who enters this country illegally also engages in fraud and other violent crimes. That is obviously false. You think people who commit fraud and violent crimes ought to be punished? Good, we agree. But that has little to nothing to do with illegal immigration. In fact, the present policies actually make it worse because there is incentive to get lost in the crowd.

And if you agree that immigration does all those things (and it does) then you ought to be for liberalizing immigration laws, not making them worse.

I agree that the act of walking across an imaginary line does not, in itself, cause harm. What we are talking about are the costs which they incur, crimes some commit, and diseases some spread once they are here.

Open borders would not solve anything... it would make many problems worse (including the potential for terrorist access).

Illegals being here does not solve any problems, either... The unemployment rate is the same (if not a bit higher) than 30-40 years ago, meanwhile Mexico is not being changed from within to provide to its own people what they seek here.

[The Rabbi]

I agree that the act of walking across an imaginary line does not, in itself, cause harm. What we are talking about are the costs which they incur, crimes some commit, and diseases some spread once they are here.

As someone once wrote:

But whatever I choose to do cannot be pre-judged and restricted from me without some cause to believe that I am disposed to abusing it.

So why is that good for you, but not good for someone else?

Open borders would not solve anything... it would make many problems worse (including the potential for terrorist access).

Illegals being here does not solve any problems, either... The unemployment rate is the same (if not a bit higher) than 30-40 years ago, meanwhile Mexico is not being changed from within to provide to its own people what they seek here.

No one is talking about open borders (whatever that means).

Unemployment rates:

Illegal immigration has had no effect on unemployment. So the argument they are "taking jobs from Americans" is hogwash.

But they are doing something, right? Not every one of them is sitting at home sponging off Uncle Sugar. And if they are working then they are solving problems, specifically low labor participation rates in certain industries, especially agriculture, hospitality, and construction. Without them those industries would either die altogether or outsource to another country.

[molonlabetn]

As someone once wrote:

So why is that good for you, but not good for someone else?

It's rather evident that there is alot of abuse occuring over this, both from the illegals draining social benefits at a huge net loss over what they pay in (a good reason to also get rid of Social Security and Welfare, anyways, but that's another matter), and from the abuse of the companies which use them as little more than slave labor. I don't want to end up paying 'reparations' to them down the road.

No one is talking about open borders (whatever that means).

But we should look the other way while they pour in? The whole issue and reason why they are "illegal", is that they have bucked the existing system for allowing needed workers in with temporary visas. What makes anyone think that they will adhere to any type of relaxed regulation, or those which are turned back due to disease or criminal record won't still come in unauthorized?

Illegal immigration has had no effect on unemployment. So the argument they are "taking jobs from Americans" is hogwash.

But they are doing something, right? Not every one of them is sitting at home sponging off Uncle Sugar. And if they are working then they are solving problems, specifically low labor participation rates in certain industries, especially agriculture, hospitality, and construction. Without them those industries would either die altogether or outsource to another country.

It makes very little difference whether they work here or there, considering the amount of money that they earn here gets sent right back over the border into the economy of another country. It is a parasitic relationship which, as you said, does not have any affect on the American unemployment (none that is positive, anyways). They should be responsible for their own country of citizenship, or go thru the proper channels to be responsible for this one by becoming a citizen. I have no problem at all with those who actually get a visa, stay out of trouble, and are a positive influence on the economy... the issue is that very few do those things.

Not getting a visa is a valid reason to be deported, has been for a long time, and that is true in nearly any country.

Committing a crime (DUI, theft, tax-evasion, identity theft, etc), is a reason to be deported.

Not being a positive influence on the economy is not a reason to be deported, but it makes one wonder what the heck they are doing here in the first place.

[SHbicycle]

Rabbi you are doing a good job making people think, but you know that this subject is the reason the GOP will win. Good job at stirring the pot to get the people out to vote.

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi you are doing a good job making people think, but you know that this subject is the reason the GOP will win. Good job at stirring the pot to get the people out to vote.

You didnt read the article. That is exactly the point. People will not vote for a candidate running on the "stop all illegal immigration" platform. The record of those who did isn't encouraging.

This is why I posted this: regardless of your feelings on it, if the GOP candidates hope to win in '08 they had better formulate something better than "close the border, ship 'em home."

The Dems have gun control, a small vocal minority pushing them to do something that will lose them voters at the polls. Immigration is the GOP's version of this.

[towerclimber37]

And how has enforcement been working for the last 20 years? What makes you think "this time it'll be different"?

The US isnt France. There is no way to compare the two. The riots in Paris were not necessarily immigrant related.

what total crap.

the riots WERE immigrant related. they were ALL immigrants. they all flocked to a couple of neighborhoods, were living in slums and got angry because the government wouldn't repair the buildings.

The slum lords wouldn't repair them either. so they rioted, when all they had to do was MOVE!

as for the enforcement for the last 20 years thing. thats OUR fault. we haven't MADE the government enforce the law. that is something we can rectify.

as for this "hurting the GOP".

I think when a bill that the GOP PRESIDENT sponsored a bill to give AMNESTY to illegal immigrants was voted down by not only his base but by many democrats as well, he should get the message.

Don't drink the left wing .

[Mike.357]

People will not vote for a candidate running on the "stop all illegal immigration" platform.

What people is this you speak of? I would sure vote for a candidate running with that plank in their platform.

It would not bother me a bit if all immigration was just flat stopped in this country.

[Guest tjbert47]

People will not vote for a candidate running on the "stop all illegal immigration" platform.

your joking right?

Tom in TN

[molonlabetn]

People will not vote for a candidate running on the "stop all illegal immigration" platform.

Cite?

That's the opposite of anything I've seen anywhere. Here is one of many examples: http://www.cis.org/articles/2006/2006pollrelease.html

[towerclimber37]

heh..don't cite me. I'd make a fibber out of Rabbi.

I have NO problem with enforcing the sovereignty of our country.

I have a feeling that there are quite a few folks out there on both sides of the political fence that agree with me too.

but thats' just dumb ole me.

[Guest Phantom6]

I believe that anyone interested in lowering the violent crime rate should be interested in stemming the flow of illegal aliens.

From the pages of the City Journal, the nation’s premier urban-policy magazine (just one of hundreds and hundreds of artricles that appear in a Google new search)-

Ahem, and I quote,

In September, the force (Miami P.D.) arrested a Honduran visa violator for seven vicious rapes. The previous year, Miami cops had had the suspect in custody for lewd and lascivious molestation, without checking his immigration status. Had they done so, they would have discovered his visa overstay, a deportable offense, and so could have forestalled the rapes. “We have shied away from unnecessary involvement dealing with immigration issues,†explains Moss, choosing his words carefully, “because of our large immigrant population.â€

Police commanders may not want to discuss, much less respond to, the illegal-alien crisis, but its magnitude for law enforcement is startling. Some examples:

In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

If you would care to read the entire article to maklesure that I am not taking any of this out of context, follow this link

IMHO anyone not interested in reducing violent crime by turning a blind eye to it does not deserve my vote. Oh but wait, naturalized and natural born U.S. citizens commit violent crimes you say? :koolaid:Why yes they do but there would be far fewer of them if the illegal alien problem were taken care of by shucking these gangsters from our borders upon first contact with law enforcement. As the article points out, in L.A. alone there were 17,000 fugitive felony warrants for illegal aliens. The article was written in the Fall of 2004. Think it's gottenany better in the last three years?

Fewer illegal aliens = less voilent crime

Fewer illegal aliens = less drain on healthcare

Fewer illegal aliens = less drain on public assistance programs

Maybe it's "New Math" to some but it adds up quite simply for me.

a+b+c=x

(a)If you are not for stopping illegal immigration at the border +

(b)If you are not for coming down hard on the employers that give them jobs +

©If you are not for removing these leeches from our country upon contact = You don't get my vote!

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

PEOPLE PEOPLE! I have the solution. We need to convince the French to take an extremely high minimum wage, say, 20 Euros an hour. The we'll take some tax money for a boat which goes from the southern Texas gulf coast to France. This boat would be totally free for whoever wanted to go. Then many illegals would cross the border, jump on the boat, and give our problem to France instead. I mean, why cross the border for $2/hr when you can ride a boat for 10 Euros/hr? And "free" healthcare!

[towerclimber37]

PEOPLE PEOPLE! I have the solution. We need to convince the French to take an extremely high minimum wage, say, 20 Euros an hour. The we'll take some tax money for a boat which goes from the southern Texas gulf coast to France. This boat would be totally free for whoever wanted to go. Then many illegals would cross the border, jump on the boat, and give our problem to France instead. I mean, why cross the border for $2/hr when you can ride a boat for 10 Euros/hr? And "free" healthcare!

hey! I have an even better solution.

for those pesky illegal aliens that have been deported numerous times and refuse to follow the laws, DEPORT THEM TO LIBERIA instead of Mexico.

lets see em come back from THAT one!

[The Rabbi]

hey! I have an even better solution.

for those pesky illegal aliens that have been deported numerous times and refuse to follow the laws, DEPORT THEM TO LIBERIA instead of Mexico.

lets see em come back from THAT one!

You obviously weren't paying attention when I wrote that the US recently deported illegals for the fourth and fifth time. To Nigeria. You want to pay the airfare, go right ahead.

As for voting, what people on this board will vote for is irrelevant. Someone might want to ask JD Haynesworth how deportation of illegals worked in his campaign.

[towerclimber37]

You obviously weren't paying attention when I wrote that the US recently deported illegals for the fourth and fifth time. To Nigeria. You want to pay the airfare, go right ahead.

.

Yeah, but those were Nigerians... If we send the Nigerians to Mexico, the Mexicans to Chad, the Somalians to Singapore etc, and do it repeatedly, then I think it'll make them think twice before they jump the fence.

its either that, or we just start shooting them as they cross.

since you're the one that loves the great unwashed masses of criminals, YOU pick between the 2...but one way or another, they need to be controlled.

better yet, instead of sending them there, lets send them to Uzbeckistan or mongolia.

[fury2neon]

Yeah, but those were Nigerians... If we send the Nigerians to Mexico, the Mexicans to Chad, the Somalians to Singapore etc, and do it repeatedly, then I think it'll make them think twice before they jump the fence.

its either that, or we just start shooting them as they cross.

since you're the one that loves the great unwashed masses of criminals, YOU pick between the 2...but one way or another, they need to be controlled.

better yet, instead of sending them there, lets send them to Uzbeckistan or mongolia.

I think you have a great plan there!

[Guest Phantom6]

...its either that, or we just start shooting them as they cross.

I say we send MA to the border. Ma-Duce that is. Proven reliability since 1921.

[towerclimber37]

yep, and if you use a quarter behind the buffer washers, you can double your rate of fire...you just have to watch your R.O.F. or you'll burn out the barrel.

[Mike.357]

we just start shooting them as they cross.

+1 - nail on the head Tower

[molonlabetn]

As much as I would like to do whatever was necessary to prevent border traffic, shooting them would cause more problems than we have currently.

I wouldn't be sad about sending them to China though...

[saintsfanbrian]

I still wish we could just "declare war" with Mexico so that the border states could start shooting anyone that attempted to cross as invaders.