"Bulletin" re: GLOCK pistols

[BigPoppa]

Passed along from a mailing list bulletin of a well-known local Firearms instructor. Take it for whatever you think it's worth.

Online Extra September 10, 2009, 5:00PM EST

Glock Pistol Used by Police Raised Safety Issues

In the late 1990s, U.S. employees expressed concerns to the Austrian gun maker regarding the Glock 22

By Paul Barrett and Brian Grow

Glock markets its weapons as "safe action pistols." But internal company documents reviewed by BusinessWeek—and reported here for the first time—reveal that in the late 1990s, company employees in the U.S. expressed concern about the safe performance of the Glock 22, a model commonly used by American police officers.

If these documents had surfaced in injury lawsuits filed over the years against Glock, they could have created potentially serious liability trouble for the company, according to plaintiffs' lawyers. "Documents of this sort were requested in pretrial discovery by us and by lawyers in other cases," says Daniel G. Abel, an attorney who helped represent the city of New Orleans in an ultimately unsuccessful lawsuit against the gun industry in the late 1990s. "These documents should have been disclosed in discovery. There is no excuse—no legitimate excuse—for their not being disclosed."

Glock's general counsel, Carlos Guevara, said in a written response: "Glock pistols are remarkably safe and reliable, historically and currently, and are of exceedingly high quality.…When involved in products liability cases, we respond to discovery requests following the rules of the jurisdiction, evidentiary rules and practices, and pursuant to the laws of the United States and orders of the courts."

Safety has long been a point of contention for Glock of Austria. Unlike most handguns, which have external on-off safeties, Glock pistols are equipped with internal mechanisms that prevent firing. These internal safeties are disengaged merely by depressing the trigger. The ability to fire immediately, without worrying about an external safety, is one feature Glock has stressed as an advantage when selling its guns, especially to police departments.

Skeptics see this feature in a different light. The Consumer Federation of America has cited the Glock's design as one reason the gun has been the subject of dozens of lawsuits filed after unintentional shootings, including a number by police officers. The company has won or confidentially settled most of these cases without acknowledging any liability.

Paul F. Jannuzzo, Glock's former top executive in the U.S., says in an interview that, overall, the company's pistols are as safe as comparable handguns—and more durable. "The one problem," he says, "was [the Glock] would go off sometimes when it wasn't supposed to."

Occasional Jamming

Another problem that surfaced in the 1990s and persisted for years thereafter was occasional jamming, Jannuzzo says. In 1998 he and other Glock officials in the U.S. discovered guns that failed to fire properly. "These malfunctions were very difficult to clear and could not be cleared with the normal 'tap, rack' drill," stated a Feb. 12, 1998, memo from American employees to Glock founder and owner Gaston Glock entitled "Performance of G 22s." "Law enforcement officers see this type of stoppage as a serious failure and one which has life-threatening implications," the memo added. "If these were received by the FBI or DEA [both Glock customers], they would immediately suspend the contract and demand a retest or other action."

The memo described tests on eight sample guns that were fired more than 2,000 times in all. "In particular, we are concerned with the difference in the poor test results in the U.S., compared with the better results achieved in Austria," the memo told Gaston Glock. The company manufactures parts in Austria and assembles guns for the American market at a plant outside Atlanta.

Four days later, on Feb. 16, Jannuzzo followed up with a letter to Gaston Glock. Jannuzzo disputed the contention by company executives in Austria that the malfunctioning pistols needed a "breaking-in period," after which they would work properly. This notion "flies in the face of the Glock pistol's reputation as being the best shooting semi-automatic 'out of the box,'" Jannuzzo wrote.

In an interview, Jannuzzo adds: "It was a problem, and it was much more of a problem than they [executives in Austria] wanted to admit.…They never knew which guns were going to break."

Guevara, the Glock general counsel, disagreed: "Each pistol undergoes numerous quality control checks throughout the manufacturing and assembly process.…Additionally, the firearms industry is highly regulated in the United States (and internationally), and Glock fully complies with all rules and regulations with respect to every aspect of Glock's business, including sales."

[Guest Todd@CIS]

My opinion based on...

-My agency has over 100 Glocks in inventory (22s, 23s, and 27s) and several of them are over 10 years old.

-Every officer quals 6 times a year using 180gr ammunition.

-I've been a Dept Glock Armorer (among others) for 8 years.

-I've owned and carried Glocks for 19 years.

The problems and / or parts breakage with Glocks have been incredibly small and they have served us / me very well.

If I had to go to a fight with only a handgun, and could choose which one, it would be a Glock.

PS. Where's the ?

Edited September 15, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[Westwindmike]

This email came to me from Buford Tune at APPS and we all know how much he hates Glock.

[Smith]

This email came to me from Buford Tune at APPS and we all know how much he hates Glock.

Being on his e-mail list would cause me concern!

[Hotshot]

The one problem," he says, "was [the Glock] would go off sometimes when it wasn't supposed to."

I hate when I see this in the media. Guns don't go off by themselves. Ya pull the trigger, it goes boom. Keep your finger off the trigger, nothing happens. Every video I've seen of a cop AD they were pumped up and had their finger inside the trigger guard.

[Guest db99wj]

How many 22's and other models are in circulation and how many have failed. I would guess the rate of failure is so small that is is barely recordable. Take other guns from other manufactures and your fail rate will be much much higher. They don't go off unless you pull the trigger, whether on purpose or "accident". If there was a problem with a drop test and them firing, then that would be a problem.

I don't own a Glock, never owned a Glock, but would and might in the future.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

this is complete and utter BS. If this gun had flaws everyone and their mom wouldnt be trying to copy it. I have used this particular gun in law enforcement applications for many years, and have been a Glock Armorer for over 15 years. Its really pretty simple, if you keep your buger hook off the bang button it wont fire. Period!

[Guest Ghostrider]

This email came to me from Buford Tune at APPS and we all know how much he hates Glock.

BINGO - I don't know if it was Tune but I was over there last week (fingerprinting) and was asked about my weapon (XD45c) I told them I thought it was the best thing since sliced bread and was my choice of a carry weapon.

Some fat guy (Tune?) came down the hall, not part of the conversation, and asked me what I used to lube it, before I could reply he bellowed something about solvents and then literally screamed "Plastics and high explosives - what part of this can't you understand, it's going to explode!!!" (or words to that effect. Then he storms off into the back.

I'm standing there thinking "this is what gives southerners a bad name".

[Guest Grout]

Sounds like Tune should be locked in a room with Marty Hayes.Hayes is an instructor who thinks the only handgun to own is a Glock.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Well OK then. If it worries folks that much then give me your defective glocks and go buy a revolver..with a safety...and keep it unloaded....and locked in a safe...in a bank deposit box.....in another town....

Here is a clue...guns go off when you pull the trigger.Imagine that. If you did not mean to pull the trigger then it is YOUR fault not the gun's ...they do not just "go off".

If you use the trigger as a "finger rest" you are eventually gonna shoot yourself or someone else accidentally.

Have the authors of that hit piece ever fired a glock? Or anything else for that matter?

[mk19]

That email is total BS. I don't own any Glocks( that is a different discussion) but have shot thousands of rounds through Glocks and there never was any problems. People bitching about them not have an external safety need to learn the basics, the operator is the primary safety of the firearms. thus if the operator is compitant there is no need for an exteranl safety.

[eapking]

That email is total BS. I don't own any Glocks( that is a different discussion) but have shot thousands of rounds through Glocks and there never was any problems. People bitching about them not have an external safety need to learn the basics, the operator is the primary safety of the firearms. thus if the operator is compitant there is no need for an exteranl safety.

+1...the operator is the only safety worth counting on.

[Guest louderthebetter]

To me a Glock is so butt ugly I hate for it to get close to my Colt,Baers and other

pretty guns I own.

That being said I think my Glock .45 cal with after market sights is the most trusted semi I own.I've shot 1000's of rounds from it over the years and it's never failed to do

what it was designed to do with good ammo.I could tell you a little story bout some

crappy re-loads but I ain't gonna cuz I'm still trying to live that down.

Now if we could do something about the Glock being so butt ugly..........

[10Kilr]

Same ol' .

[kwe45919]

Wait....nothing about accidental self inflicted wounds caused by reholstering?? I thought that was the biggest problem with carrying a Glock of any kind with the chamber loaded?? Ya know...the trigger moving into the rearward position all by itself. Soooo many people have claimed thier Glocks have mysteriously gone off while reholstering and claimed the trigger was "bumped" by the trigger guard or some other BS excuse. Who in their right mind has to reholster soooo fast they shoot themselves?? Don't say Cops either. They can take an extra second to safely reholster properly to ensure their saftey as well as others in the area...that;s what they're supposed to do right??

Anyways, have has Glocks for about 5 to 6 years....never had an issues with FTF or FTE or any other "break-in" peorid. They have shot everytime directly out of the box with no issues.....

[Guest mn32768]

The quote was taken from an article in BusinessWeek. It's a little bit out of context, and the author of the article is not anti-gun (or anti-Glock to that matter).

Massad Ayoob Blog Archive About the Glock Cover Story in the Current Business Week

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/newsworthy-reports/27272-glock-article-businessweek.html

[K191145]

Wait....nothing about accidental self inflicted wounds caused by reholstering?? I thought that was the biggest problem with carrying a Glock of any kind with the chamber loaded?? Ya know...the trigger moving into the rearward position all by itself. Soooo many people have claimed thier Glocks have mysteriously gone off while reholstering and claimed the trigger was "bumped" by the trigger guard or some other BS excuse. Who in their right mind has to reholster soooo fast they shoot themselves?? Don't say Cops either. They can take an extra second to safely reholster properly to ensure their saftey as well as others in the area...that;s what they're supposed to do right??

Anyways, have has Glocks for about 5 to 6 years....never had an issues with FTF or FTE or any other "break-in" peorid. They have shot everytime directly out of the box with no issues.....

If you're re-holstering I assume the danger is over. I've never felt the need for a fast re-holster. Even before I bought a Glock I watched my handgun going into the holster because most of my holsters have thumb break straps that can get inside the trigger guard. I admit it took a while to get used to the thought of no manual safety but I'm fine with it now. It's just my opinion though for someone who isn't going to carry or shoot their handgun very often, the type who buys a handgun, goes to the range once or twice and fires 2 boxes of rounds then tosses it in their nightstand drawer, to consider something besides a Glock. Or really any auto for that matter.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

Same here. Best guns out there for police.

My opinion based on...

-My agency has over 100 Glocks in inventory (22s, 23s, and 27s) and several of them are over 10 years old.

-Every officer quals 6 times a year using 180gr ammunition.

-I've been a Dept Glock Armorer (among others) for 8 years.

-I've owned and carried Glocks for 19 years.

The problems and / or parts breakage with Glocks have been incredibly small and they have served us / me very well.

If I had to go to a fight with only a handgun, and could choose which one, it would be a Glock.

PS. Where's the ?

[Smith]

The kool-aid is thick and strong in here. I wish Mars was still here for this one.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

The folks more experienced and knowledgeable than you are thick and strong in here. With over 20 years in law enforcement, almost all of them with an issued glock, my experience has been that they are top of the heap for law enforcement use.

[Guest rabidrhino]

While the article and email do have a particular slant, I don't think I can call it complete BS. Relatively speaking, I thought (though possibly mistaken) that the 22s were the most problematic of the Glocks. Wasn't the attachment of lights problematic on certain generations?

Regarding the documents and business practices, one can believe that a company would hide documents in discovery, especially with the possible negative PR that such documents would cause. That happens quite often, especially before the rules of e-discovery and computer storage. Furthermore, I'd hazard a guess that many companies trying to obtain gov't contracts have about as dubious a record as Glock.

I guess I don't see the whole issue about safety either. Of course glocks are as safe as revolvers stuffed in a drawer, but the issue was/is individuals using the glocks in practice having training on revolver or other pistols. Officers, gun enthusiasts and the like, being fallible humans, despite training and range time, under stress or moments of nonthinking put there finger near or on the trigger--verboten areas. Simply, a longer and heavier pull would forgive a percentage of these mistakes, enough to cause a significant difference in negligent discharges. Glocks did go off when they were not supposed to, though through the error of the operator.

And no, I'm not a glock hater, own more than most, carry one daily and compete with one at the state matches.

[Smith]

The folks more experienced and knowledgeable than you are thick and strong in here. With over 20 years in law enforcement, almost all of them with an issued glock, my experience has been that they are top of the heap for law enforcement use.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

+1 Lumberg.

While the article and email do have a particular slant, I don't think I can call it complete BS. Relatively speaking, I thought (though possibly mistaken) that the 22s were the most problematic of the Glocks. Wasn't the attachment of lights problematic on certain generations?

Regarding the documents and business practices, one can believe that a company would hide documents in discovery, especially with the possible negative PR that such documents would cause. That happens quite often, especially before the rules of e-discovery and computer storage. Furthermore, I'd hazard a guess that many companies trying to obtain gov't contracts have about as dubious a record as Glock.

I guess I don't see the whole issue about safety either. Of course glocks are as safe as revolvers stuffed in a drawer, but the issue was/is individuals using the glocks in practice having training on revolver or other pistols. Officers, gun enthusiasts and the like, being fallible humans, despite training and range time, under stress or moments of nonthinking put there finger near or on the trigger--verboten areas. Simply, a longer and heavier pull would forgive a percentage of these mistakes, enough to cause a significant difference in negligent discharges. Glocks did go off when they were not supposed to, though through the error of the operator.

And no, I'm not a glock hater, own more than most, carry one daily and compete with one at the state matches.

[poak]

There's a big difference between a gun "going off when it isn't supposed to" and going off when it's owner didn't intend it to. BIG DIFFERENCE.

[Smith]

The folks more experienced and knowledgeable than you are thick and strong in here. With over 20 years in law enforcement, almost all of them with an issued glock, my experience has been that they are top of the heap for law enforcement use.

Folks tend to swear by what they know. As you said most issued and trained on Glocks tend to favor .......... You new guys need to go back and read the late Mars views on the gun at hand and learn something. He was way more experienced and qualified than almost anyone here, combined. Glocks are the darlings of PD's for cost reasons, period. Everything after that is debatable.

The Glock is a fine weapon but no more so than many others. They weren't the first and they won't be the last.