My 1st .308 handload results

[MikeW]

My first attempt at loading .308 for my bolt gun. Also my 1st outing with new scope (Weaver 10x Mil-Dot tatical). The groups were better than my best group with Federal Gold Match 168 but I think that the groups will improve over time, I hope.

I hope to load more this week and test again soon. I loaded 25 without the use of a crimping die and 25 with a light crimp... the gun seems to like the light crimp better. Any reloaders here that have thoughts on crimp vs. no crimp?

Load data:

2.77 OAL

150 Hornady FMJ BT

42.3 Grains of IMR 4064 (start load in Lee book)

Wincheste LR primers

Full length resizing die used

Lee Hand Press

100yds 5-shots crimp

100 yds 10 shots no crimp

[gregintenn]

Sweet. A crimp is not needed in a long, bottlenecked rifle case such as a 308, or most other rifle rounds for that matter. There is sufficient neck tension to hold the bullet in place without the crimp. That being said, if you feel it is more accurate with the crimp, it certainly woundn't hurt anything. Congratulations on your results. Looks like you're off to a great start.

[I_Like_Pie]

No crimp needed.

[MikeW]

Thanks for the replies guys... I will not use the crimp die and focus more on neck tension.

[Good_Steward]

Personally, I like a light crimp. I use a Lee factory crimp die, and am very pleased with the results. I see a tad more accuracy out of them with the light crimp, by far enough to justify the $10 and few extra seconds in the process.

[Hidalgo]

Thanks for the replies guys... I will not use the crimp die and focus more on neck tension.

There are LOTS of things that you can do to possibly increase accuracy other than crimping.

Uniform the primer pockets.

Uniform the flash holes.

Use competition seating dies.

OAL is one of the most important things that you can pay attention to if you want to increase accuracy.

From my experience and 25 years of reloading, I have seen very few cases where a crimp has greatly improved accuracy in the .308.

[MikeW]

There are LOTS of things that you can do to possibly increase accuracy other than crimping.

Uniform the primer pockets.

Uniform the flash holes.

Use competition seating dies.

OAL is one of the most important things that you can pay attention to if you want to increase accuracy.

From my experience and 25 years of reloading, I have seen very few cases where a crimp has greatly improved accuracy in the .308.

I will start with the two bold options above... seems that those are "low cost" ideas.

Personally, I like a light crimp. I use a Lee factory crimp die, and am very pleased with the results. I see a tad more accuracy out of them with the light crimp, by far enough to justify the $10 and few extra seconds in the process.

The Lee Factory Crimp dies is what I have. Easy enough to use and not that much more time even with a hand press. I bought the crimp for when I load .308 for my M1A.

thanks

Edited September 14, 2009 by MikeW

[Good_Steward]

There are LOTS of things that you can do to possibly increase accuracy other than crimping.

Uniform the primer pockets.

Uniform the flash holes.

Use competition seating dies.

OAL is one of the most important things that you can pay attention to if you want to increase accuracy.

From my experience and 25 years of reloading, I have seen very few cases where a crimp has greatly improved accuracy in the .308.

I've been loading for 15, myself, and I definitely agree with your statement that uniforming the primer pocket and flash hole are fantastic ideas. I do it myself. I also use this seating die: MidwayUSA - Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater Die 308 Winchester

BUT, I am still a firm believer that the factory crimp die helps those other processes to perform even better. IMO

[gregintenn]

OAL is one of the most important things that you can pay attention to if you want to increase accuracy.

I have to agree with this statement.

[Hidalgo]

BUT, I am still a firm believer that the factory crimp die helps those other processes to perform even better. IMO

I agree there are some cases where crimping is advantageous. But not always. Pressure rates and bullet types have a bearing on crimping. Some bullets respond well to being crimped ... some not so well. Experimentation is never a bad thing, and crimping is just another variable in the load evaluation.

Case in point: I have never crimped .223 V-Max loads, as I found out that it always hindered consistency rather than advanced it. But when I was working with a Nosler Partition loading for Texas pig shooting, it failed miserably with any and every powder/charge I tried. Only when crimped would the Partitions perform adequately.

As a side note: Crimping can also cause increases in pressure, although they are usually minor. However, I am extremely careful when using load data that is not designed for crimped loads. Go slowly and inspect your spent cases thoroughly.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

I bought the crimp for when I load .308 for my M1A.

Even for the M1A you don't have to crimp.. the best thing for you do so is get a Redding S type bushing die and control your neck tension that way.. it will be way more consistant that way then with that Lee crimp die.. also.. you will only need 3 thou of neck tension.

To determine neck tension.. take a loaded dummy round and measure the outside of the neck.. subtract 3 thou from that and that will be the bushing size that you will need for that particular brass that your using.. Winchester brass typically needs a .331 -.332 bushing.. Lapua needs a .334-.335 bushing.. but is best to check it and make sure.

Edited September 14, 2009 by FroggyOne2

[MikeW]

Even for the M1A you don't have to crimp.. the best thing for you do so is get a Redding S type bushing die and control your neck tension that way.. it will be way more consistant that way then with that Lee crimp die.. also.. you will only need 3 thou of neck tension.

To determine neck tension.. take a loaded dummy round and measure the outside of the neck.. subtract 3 thou from that and that will be the bushing size that you will need for that particular brass that your using.. Winchester brass typically needs a .331 -.332 bushing.. Lapua needs a .334-.335 bushing.. but is best to check it and make sure.

Thanks Froggy

Is the the die set that you mentioned above?

Redding Type S Match Bushing 3-Die Neck Sizer Set 308 Winchester - MidwayUSA

[Guest FroggyOne2]

yes!

[Guest BigShot]

+3 on the case length as most contributing to accuracy.

Also, mine preferred neck sizing over full length.

[MikeW]

Thanks for the advice bigshot. i picked up an OAL gauge yesterday to take out some of the guess work, i hope.

[Hidalgo]

Thanks for the advice bigshot. i picked up an OAL gauge yesterday to take out some of the guess work, i hope.

An OAL gauge is good, but if you are measuring the cartridge from "tip to tip" you're still dealing with variables. The proper way to measure OAL (except for magazine constraints) is to measure to the ogive of the bullet ... not the tip. If the gauge you purchased measures that way, then you're good to go. A micrometer competition seating die (many are offered) is one of the best ways to manufacture consistent cartridge lengths. The barrel/rifling could care less what the overall length is, but rather where the ogive contacts the lands. Bullets vary considerably in this regard.

[Hidalgo]

+3 on the case length as most contributing to accuracy.

Are you referring to overall length ... or case length?

Actually, case length is not nearly as critical as cartridge overall length (measured to the ogive). It is however dangerous to use over-length cases.

[MikeW]

An OAL gauge is good, but if you are measuring the cartridge from "tip to tip" you're still dealing with variables. The proper way to measure OAL (except for magazine constraints) is to measure to the ogive of the bullet ... not the tip. If the gauge you purchased measures that way, then you're good to go. A micrometer competition seating die (many are offered) is one of the best ways to manufacture consistent cartridge lengths. The barrel/rifling could care less what the overall length is, but rather where the ogive contacts the lands. Bullets vary considerably in this regard.

I hope to upgrade to the Redding Type S die set as listed above.

I picked up the Hornady OAL gauge. I now realize that I need to pick up their "Comparator". Or, maybe this type of set up is just "snake oil"?

"Measuring cartridge lengths across the bullet tips is not a reliable (or repeatable)method for measuring your loaded rounds. It’s common for variations of up to .025" (0.6mm) to exist from one round to the next.

Our Bullet Comparator solves that problem by measuring rounds from a reliable surfaceon the bullet– the ogive– to provide consistent, precise measurementsof your rounds. The Bullet Comparator is also used to check uniformity ofbullets from base to ogive"

[Hidalgo]

I picked up the Hornady OAL gauge. I now realize that I need to pick up their "Comparator". Or, maybe this type of set up is just "snake oil"?

Nope ... using a comparator (or similar) is the only way to measure the TRUE OAL. Measuring by any other method is ... well ... not measuring anything of value.

You'll find, as you progress at reloading, that there are many, many tools / gauges / systems, etc that you can impose on your reloading bench. Some are valuable, and some are not. And if you talk to three different people you'll get three differing opinions on what you need to address. But most will agree that accurate and consistent OAL measurements will aid greatly in consistency.

You can take this reloading hobby as far as your bank account and spare time allow. Do your due diligence by reading, searching, using google, and if possible talking to EXPERIENCED reloaders who are passionate about it and who also are realistic about the accuracy expectations of the "off the shelf" factory firearm. Then make your decisions. If you only want reasonable loads for medium range hunting situations, then you may be satisfied with 1.5 MOA accuracy. But if you like to "tinker", and loading is truly fun, you'll probably find yourself on the unending road that most of us travel trying to find the "perfect" combination for our rifles.

In the end ... just have fun and enjoy!

Edited September 21, 2009 by Hidalgo

[MikeW]

Thanks for the words of wisdom Hidaglo

I am going to order the comparator today... If/when, I have more time I will upgrade my reloading equipment. When I started out to reload .308, it was in hopes of cutting down my cost. The gun likes Federal Gold Medal Match factory ammo but my wallet does not

So far, with my first two batches of reloads I think I have met my goal, thus far. I have the same or better (.27 MOA best with reloads) results with my loads when compared to FGMM. I wont be hunting so I will only be punching paper at 100 & 200 yrds for the time being.

I am glad to see that there are experienced reloaders here on TGO (such as yourself)...it cuts down on my search time

Let me ask you (yall) this... I dont have the comparator but I have measured the OAL (base to tip) using the gauge. I loaded the gauge into the chamber... used the gauge adjustment to feed the bullet into the chamber until I felt the bullet make contact with the lands. I use a cleaning rod down the barrel to make sure that there was not any "slack" in the gauge/bullet.

I came out with a 2.84 OAL with a 168 Matchking bullet (Lee manual has Min OAL of 2.80). Am I correct in thinking that I will still need to measure to from base to tip to make sure that my loads will fit & feed in to the magazine? Measuring with the comparator would give me a better measurment for making each load match the next???

When the Lee load manual list a 2.80 OAL should I use that data for base to tip or base to ogive using the comparator?

[Hidalgo]

So far, with my first two batches of reloads I think I have met my goal, thus far. I have the same or better (.27 MOA best with reloads) results with my loads when compared to FGMM. I wont be hunting so I will only be punching paper at 100 & 200 yrds for the time being.

Uh ... wow ... .27 MOA is WONDERFUL. There are "bench" guns around that won't shoot 1/4" groups.

I came out with a 2.84 OAL with a 168 Matchking bullet (Lee manual has Min OAL of 2.80). Am I correct in thinking that I will still need to measure to from base to tip to make sure that my loads will fit & feed in to the magazine? Measuring with the comparator would give me a better measurment for making each load match the next???

Unless you're OK with feeding them in as singles, then you would need to make sure that they will feed from the magazine.

When the Lee load manual list a 2.80 OAL should I use that data for base to tip or base to ogive using the comparator?

ANY overall length measurement that you see in a loading manual is OVERALL length ... they never take the ogive into consideration. The data in the manuals is ... well ... conservative. They only use tested loads that are well under the SAAMI pressure figures. And that's not a bad thing. It gives you a known place to start your load development. I always start with the published OAL for the bullet I'm using and then work my way out a little at a time until I see results (or not). Having the comparator will give you the proper info so you will know where your maximum OAL is. Also, going a lot over published OAL is usually not necessary to achieve goods results. Unlike "other" things (lol) longer isn't always better.

Let's "back up and punt" here ....... OAL has a bearing on 2 things: It changes the "jump" that the bullet has before it hits the rifling grooves, and it has somewhat of an influence on the pressures that the load expends. Each and every barrel has it's own tastes and preferences. As an example, most .204 Ruger rifles operate with extremely long jumps before the bullet hits the rifling, and they exhibit awesome accuracy. The .204 "likes" a big jump, for whatever reason. Other cartridges prefer almost zero jump, and some even like the bullet to be actually touching the lands when the round is chambered. It's a test-and-see thing for most all rifles. Some will respond with obvious preferences, and others will show almost no change in accuracy. Most magazine fed rifles will limit you to OAL long before you get near the rifling. Factory throats are usually extremely long. If you plan to use the magazine, then you will probably find that the maximum mag length is still well off the rifling.

Above all else remember this: Safety comes FIRST. Jamming a bullet into the lands can result in IMMENSE increases in pressure. A very safe load can become a very dangerous load simply by extending the bullet into the lands. Of course, "short-seating" the bullet extremely into the case can cause the same results.

If you are not schooled in pressure signs (flattened or cratered primers, etc) do a Google search for images of pressure signs and make yourself familiar with what to look for. Be safe.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Hidalgo

[MikeW]

When I get the Comparator (will be here 9/25) I will pick your brain on the measurements that I get. I will keep an eye out for pressure signs... I have only loaded loads to the "start" powder amount so far. The primers look good.. I did shoot a few "buddy hand loads/ max loads" and the primers would pancake... no more of those for me .

Many thanks!

[Guest FroggyOne2]

When checking for pressure.. the best way to tell is to have a micrometer, measure your new cases at the web of the case.. write that number down.. then.. when your testing loads.. measure your cases after they are fired, do this at the range.. if any of your loads expand 3 thou or more.. you have hit the redline.. go no further, for you are at pressure.

also.. set your resizing die to only push the shoulder back no more than 2 thou.. more than that.. you start to over work the brass.. when you get your "stoney point".. there is an insert that you can get to do this with.

Edited September 21, 2009 by FroggyOne2

[MikeW]

When checking for pressure.. the best way to tell is to have a micrometer, measure your new cases at the web of the case.. write that number down.. then.. when your testing loads.. measure your cases after they are fired, do this at the range.. if any of your loads expand 3 thou or more.. you have hit the redline.. go no further, for you are at pressure.

also.. set your resizing die to only push the shoulder back no more than 2 thou.. more than that.. you start to over work the brass.. when you get your "stoney point".. there is an insert that you can get to do this with.

Froggy I picked up a Micrometer yesteday day .. I only had calipers and so a micrometer will be helpful going forward.

When you say measure the "web" is that the "gap" infornt of the the case head? I see discussion of measuring Case Head Expansion and "Pressure ring" expansion and read enough to get more confused than I was

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/dbramwell%20july%2019%2004.pdf

[Guest FroggyOne2]

The web is about 1/8th of an inch above the extraction ring of the case.. that is where you measure.

Also, watch the primer for flattening.. most stock rifles, you can not go by the cratering of the primer (where the firing pin strikes) because most factory rifles need to have the firing pin bushed (Gre-Tan). Having a firing pin bushed and using a smaller firing pin will reduce the chances for pierced primers.

Another sign is called "extraction swipes", which is when you open the bolt (and is stiff on opening) you will have swipe marks on the bottom of the case, this is from the brass flowing into the ejector hole. That my friend is pressure!

Edited September 23, 2009 by FroggyOne2