Stun guns?

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Look guys im not meaning to be argueing the point, at all. Look at TCA 39-17-1302 under prohibited weapons? Its section A, subsection 8 that says "any instrument thats used to inflict serious bodily injury or death that has no common lawful purpose"....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

39-17-1302. Prohibited weapons.

(a) A person commits an offense who intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs or sells:

(7) A switchblade knife or knuckles; or

(8) Any other implement for infliction of serious bodily injury or death which has no common lawful purpose.

( It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the person's conduct:

(1) Was incident to the performance of official duty and pursuant to military regulations in the army, navy, air force, coast guard or marine service of the United States or the Tennessee national guard, or was incident to the performance of official duty in a governmental law enforcement agency or a penal institution;

(2) Was incident to engaging in a lawful commercial or business transaction with an organization identified in subdivision ((1);

(4) Was incident to using the weapon in a manner reasonably related to a lawful dramatic performance or scientific research;

(5) Was incident to displaying the weapon in a public museum or exhibition;

(6) Was licensed by the state of Tennessee as a manufacturer, importer or dealer in weapons; provided, that the manufacture, import, purchase, possession, sale or disposition of weapons is authorized and incident to carrying on the business for which licensed and is for scientific or research purposes or sale or disposition to the organization designated in subdivision ((1); or

© It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section which the person must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that:

(1) The person's conduct was relative to dealing with the weapon solely as a curio, ornament or keepsake, and if the weapon is a type described in subdivisions (a)(1)-(5), that it was in a nonfunctioning condition and could not readily be made operable; or

(2) The possession was brief and occurred as a consequence of having found the weapon or taken it from an aggressor.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have spoken to several officers and two DA's about this particular scenario in question. The fact is like I stated before, they can be a weapon. So can an ice pick, ink pen, or a pair of scissors. Therefor you can be charged with it as a weapon if the officer feels he wants to push it to that length. The TCA makes certain exclusions in the defense of prosecution for certain things... chemical agents and tasers arent in there.

On the deaths....

The Lee case is the one that sticks out in my mind, the officers were cleared and there was drugs involved. So who knows. I do know that a June 28 bulletin of that year, from the device's manufacturer, Taser International, to police departments nationwide warned that improper use of the stun guns could have deadly effects.

"Officers should avoid repeatedly using Tasers against people, particularly those exhibiting symptoms of "excited delirium," a drug-induced state of agitation, the company said."

Lee case in Nashville: Yes he was one drugs but the casue of death was undetermined.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/05/nashville-police-cleared-in-taserrelated-death.html

Chattanooga:

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_150704.asp

Cleveland Tennessee:

http://blogs.knoxnews.com/silence/archives/2006/03/tasered_man_in.shtml

Heres one from Vegas too:

http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1976718&nav=8faOOHOs

Texas: This one ruled a homicide by the police.

http://leisureguy.wordpress.com/2009/08/28/taser-death-ruled-a-homicide/

Theres more and more and more.... I simply dont have the time to look them up, and honestly dont care. Ask other officers or DA Whitsell, or one of the others in Rutherford County if you want clarification.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

Look guys im not meaning to be argueing the point, at all. Look at TCA 39-17-1302 under prohibited weapons? Its section A, subsection 8 that says "any instrument thats used to inflict serious bodily injury or death that has no common lawful purpose"....

OC spray and TASERs...neither of which are recognized by the State of TN to cause death or serious bodily injury (if they were, they would be subject to the same guidelines as firearms in LE force continuums).

You keep saying this, but they are recognized as "less than lethal" instruments when used in the prescribed manner. Just because you can produce an occurance where someone has died after being TASERed (for whatever reason), doesn't make it a deadly force weapon.

People have died from a punch in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still generally considered a non-life threatening action and only a misdemeanor offense.

I am routinely put in situations where OC and TASER use would be justified, but a firearm would not be...based on TCA and my Dept's force continuum.

The reasoning of your argument puts OC/TASER in the same catagory as a gun.

Also, BigPoppa politely asked you for a TCA reference regarding your assertion...I don't really see the need for all your snotty and sarcastic replies.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[BigPoppa]

On the deaths....

The Lee case is the one that sticks out in my mind, the officers were cleared and there was drugs involved. So who knows. I do know that a June 28 bulletin of that year, from the device's manufacturer, Taser International, to police departments nationwide warned that improper use of the stun guns could have deadly effects.

"Officers should avoid repeatedly using Tasers against people, particularly those exhibiting symptoms of "excited delirium," a drug-induced state of agitation, the company said."

Lee case in Nashville: Yes he was one drugs but the casue of death was undetermined.

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2009/05/nashville-police-cleared-in-taserrelated-death.html

Chattanooga:

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_150704.asp

Cleveland Tennessee:

http://blogs.knoxnews.com/silence/archives/2006/03/tasered_man_in.shtml

Heres one from Vegas too:

http://www.krnv.com/Global/story.asp?S=1976718&nav=8faOOHOs

Texas: This one ruled a homicide by the police.

http://leisureguy.wordpress.com/2009/08/28/taser-death-ruled-a-homicide/

Theres more and more and more.... I simply dont have the time to look them up, and honestly dont care. Ask other officers or DA Whitsell, or one of the others in Rutherford County if you want clarification.

Where there is enough information to determine, we can deduce that all of these deaths involved drug use, pre-existing health conditions, intoxication, struggle with police prior to arrest, etc.......nothing to indicate that TASER alone caused or even contributed to the deaths. TASER has been exceedingly successful in defending the multitude of lawsuits against it, soooo..................

If I Google long enough, I can find isolated instances of people dying after incidents involving bowling pins, salad tongs, leather moccasins, Filet-O-Fish sandwiches, etc.(none of which are expressly allowed in TCA either) but just because that item was in the vicinity doesn't mean it had anything to do with the death, or that the death wouldn't have otherwise occurred.

I'm not a lawyer, nor a TASER dealer. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Edited September 19, 2009 by BigPoppa

[GLOCKMEISTER]

You keep saying this, but they are recognized as "less than lethal" instruments when used in the prescribed manner. Just because you can produce an occurance where someone has died after being TASERed (for whatever reason), doesn't make it a deadly force weapon.

People have died from a punch in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still generally considered a non-life threatening action and only a misdemeanor offense.

I am routinely put in situations where OC and TASER use would be justified, but a firearm would not be...based on TCA and my Dept's force continuum.

The reasoning of your argument puts OC/TASER in the same catagory as a gun.

Also, BigPoppa politely asked you for a TCA reference regarding your assertion...I don't really see the need for all your snotty and sarcastic replies.

:):p:p:p

Hey guys no ones being snotty or sarcastic, sorry you took it that way. I just dont understand when people ask for a reference, when they should know the answer. I mean in my mind this is simple as 2+2. I cant believe you dont get it. Again im not being snotty, just amazed.

1st off were getting off point into irrelevant statistics and information that doesnt matter. Thats probably my fault for misspeaking earlier. It has nothing to do with death anyway, its simple as can the item cause "serious bodily injury".

Question:

So what your telling me is, if you stop some gang banger and he's carrying a ice pick or a penny roll tapped up... you cant arrest him for carrying a weapon?

The key is this, can spray or taser be weapons, YES. So can an ice pick, penny roll, crow bar, or piece of glass. Can they all inflict serious bodily injury? Yes!

A weapon is a tool used to apply or threaten to apply force for the purpose of hunting, attack or defense in combat.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon

So by definition, they are all weapons.

Its up to the officers discretion, and the State to prove if their intention was to carry it as a weapon.

Edited September 19, 2009 by GLOCKMEISTER

[GLOCKMEISTER]

btw, I spoke with a local Judge today and he agreed as well. I guess since you guys didnt answer my question I take it were now on the same page.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

I guess since you guys didnt answer my question I take it were now on the same page.

LOL...you are the king of not addressing specific points used against you in these online debates...I think I counted 3 in this thread alone.

I stated my position. Just because I don't continue to rehash doesn't mean "we're on the same page."

BTW, if you REALLY believe your position to be true, and continue to sell these items to the public, what does that say about you? And don't give me that "dramatic performance or scientific research" crap.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[BigPoppa]

:):D:p:p:p

I just dont understand when people ask for a reference, when they should know the answer. Truly, you are flummoxed by this because you have yet to provide a reference. Why are you "amazed" when you breeze into a discussion, make bold statements of fact as to what is and what is not legal, then are unable or unwilling to back it up with the law ? True, we have gotten our fill of "I don't have time to look up all this TCA stuff" (probably too busy selling the "technically illegal" Freeze + P ) or "When I helped write all this legislation, it was yap-yap-yap but it may have changed since then"

1st off were getting off point into irrelevant statistics and information that doesnt matter. Such as Tennessee Code Annotated specifically prohibiting Pepper Spray and Stun Guns ?

Seriously, sometimes these discussions are like the movie "Groundhog Day".

So, finally, no....we're not on the same page. Are you able to produce a case where a law-abiding Tennessee citizen using pepper spray or a stun gun or a TASER in legitimate, justifiable self-defense has been convicted ?

If so, I'd love to see it. In the meantime, keep selling that pepper spray...I'm sure you tell every customer that purchases it that it's illegal.

Have a pleasant evening

[BigPoppa]

Gunner,

Please come back to your thread. I'm sorry we ran you off

[GLOCKMEISTER]

I guess its time to call a spade a spade. Sad this threads turned into such a pizzing match. Todd, whats your deal with me, maybe I missed something. Please enlighten me as how I have wronged you or didn't answer any specific point made???? Please don't say its the "you sell it" bs. I thought I addressed the valid points, at least to Bo's comments. You evidently have an issue with me. I was simply replying to this because I got called out. And I dont mind that, thus the reason I check my facts then try and articulate my response. If I misspeak I admit it like earlier. I have asked several people about this, actually several that know about you from your brief stint with metro, want names? I even made it clear earlier whom you could ask in your own county. I mean what more do you want? Them to call you? Hell, come up and see me and i'll make sure one of the several judges that live around here can stop by for a chat. Or anyone else for that matter.

And what exactly are you implying about me when you say.... "continue to sell these items to the public, what does that say about you?" Maybe you not knowing the freaking law says something about you? Huh?

To answer your question, So I sell pepper spray in key chain sizes to the public, so what, its not illegal to sell it or possess it for the right purpose. I supplied the law saying it. Who doesn't sell it? Everyone sells it, Walmart to Walgreens, but it doesn't mean you can carry it for the purpose of a weapon. I know it sounds silly, but thats the facts. It depends on intent and officer discretion.

I have been a chemical weapons instructor for 18 years, and been selling freeze+p for 15 years. So why would I lie? Its the truth, and doesn't benefit me to be pointing it out.

The fact is like I stated before, they can be a weapon. So can an ice pick, ink pen, piece of glass, a crowbar, or a pair of scissors. Used in their prescribed manner they aren't a weapon, but their use can be changed to be a weapon. It depends on the intent of the carrier. Therefor you can be charged with it as a weapon if the officer feels he wants to push it to that length. The TCA makes certain exclusions in the defense of prosecution for certain things... chemical agents and tasers aren't in there. Neither are ice picks, ink pens, pieces of glass, crowbars, or a pair of scissors. So if there isn't a exclusion, then anything not listed could be.

Question:

So what your telling me is, if you stop some gang banger and he's carrying a ice pick, a ball bat, or a penny roll tapped up... you cant arrest him for carrying a weapon?

The key is this, can spray or taser be weapons, YES. So can an ice pick, penny roll, crow bar, ball bat or piece of glass. Can they all inflict serious bodily injury? Yes!

A weapon is a tool used to apply or threaten to apply force for the purpose of hunting, attack or defense in combat.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapon

So by definition, they are all weapons.

Its up to the officers discretion, and the State to prove if their intention was to carry it as a weapon.

I feel I have made my point and drove it into the ground. I welcome debate, but I feel this has turned too personal for whatever reason. Wanna answer in an educated way, fine if not im out.

I welcome any police officer, judge or attorney that want to publically put their reputation into this thread for clarification.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Seriously, sometimes these discussions are like the movie "Groundhog Day".

So, finally, no....we're not on the same page. Are you able to produce a case where a law-abiding Tennessee citizen using pepper spray or a stun gun or a TASER in legitimate, justifiable self-defense has been convicted ?

If so, I'd love to see it. In the meantime, keep selling that pepper spray...I'm sure you tell every customer that purchases it that it's illegal.

Have a pleasant evening

Groundhog day.... LMAO

More googleing screw that... I never said anyones been arrested for it much less convicted, im tired of looking up crap for this thread. I said "they technically arent legal to carry, and you COULD BE ARRESTED" not buy or own. Are you saying they are??? Seriously, your ready to stake your rep on it? Tell me they are totally legal for a civilian to carry as a weapon.

Are you saying... they arent weapons and you CANT BE CHARGED FOR CARRYING A WEAPON if found in possession of it on the street, airport, or in your car? Whats the difference in taser/spray and an ice pick, penny roll, or broken glass.... and all the other things I used as an example. If they are carrying them for protection or brandishing them as a weapon then they are weapons.

If you pulled over a car full of POS gangbangers and they had a taser, ice pick, penny roll, crow bar, hammer, or ball bat you wouldnt arrest them for carrying a weapon? If so, or if not please explain why/why not. Im not trying to be an azz, just wanna learn you reasoning for your conclusion and differences in the items above.

:P

Edited September 22, 2009 by GLOCKMEISTER

[Guest Todd@CIS]

I have asked several people about this, actually several that know about you from your brief stint with metro, want names?

Yes, who did you talk to who served with me at Metro Police?

Edited September 22, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[GLOCKMEISTER]

said they "know about you" didnt say they "served" with you. Listing friends names isnt too classy on the web. One that im pretty sure you know left metro and is now an attorney. SW is his initials. I dont know if he knew you, but he agreed with me about this and you should know him he lives on the same road me and the judge live on. Wanna know come by, i'll bye you a coke and we can talk about it.

Thats about all I have to offer about other people. Dont wanna enrage the pizzing contest anymore then it has already been.

Now wanna answer my other questions?

If you pulled over a car full of POS gangbangers and they had a taser, ice pick, penny roll, crow bar, hammer, or ball bat you wouldnt arrest them for carrying a weapon? If so, or if not please explain why/why not.

Edited September 22, 2009 by GLOCKMEISTER

[GLOCKMEISTER]

btw, sorry gunner I was just trying to help. Bo's right we shouldnt have taken over the thread.

[Guest Todd@CIS]

I have asked several people about this, actually several that know about you from your brief stint with metro, want names?

said they "know about you" didnt say they "served" with you. Listing friends names isnt too classy on the web.

Then why would you ask if I wanted names?

The "brief stint" comment finishing with "want names?" seems as if you were attempting to cast a shadow on my service with the Metro Nashville Police Dept?

Was I there long? Nope, couple/few years, but I'm proud of the time I spent there, got to work with some excellent people, and walked away with some war stories. I ended up getting a better offer from a Dept located in the county in which I live.

No brainer, I switched. I've since earned the rank of Sergeant, serve on the SWAT team, and haven't regretted my decision.

I don't see where my "brief stint" at Metro has any bearing on this discussion...other than a feeble attempt at a smear job.

To the OP, two spray products that I have used and can recommend are Freeze+P and Fox Labs.

I have also used Def-Tec products and have not been impressed.

Sorry this thread went the way that it did. I'll move on.

Edited September 24, 2009 by Todd@CIS

[BigPoppa]

Bo's right

Thanks Phillip. I knew we'd all get on the same page

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Ha ha... Its all good, but... im not letting you off the hook that easy, you still didnt answer my other questions?

Are you saying... they arent weapons and you CANT BE CHARGED FOR CARRYING A WEAPON if found in possession of it on the street, airport, or in your car? Whats the difference in taser/spray and an ice pick, penny roll, or broken glass.... and all the other things I used as an example. There is no exclusions/exeptions for defense of prosecution in the T.C.A. If they are carrying them for protection or brandishing them as a weapon then they are weapons.

If you pulled over a car full of POS gangbangers and they had a taser, ice pick, penny roll, crow bar, hammer, or ball bat you wouldnt arrest them for carrying a weapon? If so, or if not please explain why/why not.

[gunner]

Gunner,

Please come back to your thread. I'm sorry we ran you off

still here.......

[Guest Slickshooter]

The best taser to get on the market today is made by Taser international. The best price and selection I found was at OpenDNS

[Guest Slickshooter]

Personal Defense Service; Defensive Firearms Training and Personal Security Products

[Glock30Owner]

still here.......

It is interesting to watch... but to your OP, I would, too, reccomend a good pepper spray.

Either way, if may be advisable for her to get "training" in either the spray or the taser. It never hurts to have more knowledge.

[Guest Caveman]

I was a bouncer for 7 years and Freeze + P worked well for myself and the ones I worked with.

[Guest canynracer]

Look guys im not meaning to be argueing the point, at all. Look at TCA 39-17-1302 under prohibited weapons? Its section A, subsection 8 that says "any instrument thats used to inflict serious bodily injury or death that has no common lawful purpose"....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

39-17-1302. Prohibited weapons.

(a) A person commits an offense who intentionally or knowingly possesses, manufactures, transports, repairs or sells:

(7) A switchblade knife or knuckles; or

(8) Any other implement for infliction of serious bodily injury or death which has no common lawful purpose.

( It is a defense to prosecution under this section that the person's conduct:

(1) Was incident to the performance of official duty and pursuant to military regulations in the army, navy, air force, coast guard or marine service of the United States or the Tennessee national guard, or was incident to the performance of official duty in a governmental law enforcement agency or a penal institution;

(2) Was incident to engaging in a lawful commercial or business transaction with an organization identified in subdivision ((1);

(4) Was incident to using the weapon in a manner reasonably related to a lawful dramatic performance or scientific research;

(5) Was incident to displaying the weapon in a public museum or exhibition;

(6) Was licensed by the state of Tennessee as a manufacturer, importer or dealer in weapons; provided, that the manufacture, import, purchase, possession, sale or disposition of weapons is authorized and incident to carrying on the business for which licensed and is for scientific or research purposes or sale or disposition to the organization designated in subdivision ((1); or

© It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under this section which the person must prove by a preponderance of the evidence that:

(1) The person's conduct was relative to dealing with the weapon solely as a curio, ornament or keepsake, and if the weapon is a type described in subdivisions (a)(1)-(5), that it was in a nonfunctioning condition and could not readily be made operable; or

(2) The possession was brief and occurred as a consequence of having found the weapon or taken it from an aggressor.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tasers and pepper spray are self defense instruments...they HAVE a common, LAWFUL purpose. Self-Defense.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

Thank you thats my point exactly, that means by law they are weapons...

All other weapons that are legal to carry are defined by the TCA under the other section with a defense of prosecution. Tasers and chemical sprays arent mentioned... therefore they are considered prosecutable.

[Guest canynracer]

39-17-1307. Unlawful carrying or possession of a weapon. —

(a) (1) A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4²), or a club.

(2) (A) The first violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class C misdemeanor, and, in addition to possible imprisonment as provided by law, may be punished by a fine not to exceed five hundred dollars ($500).

( A second or subsequent violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class B misdemeanor.

© A violation of subdivision (a)(1) is a Class A misdemeanor if the person's carrying of a handgun occurred at a place open to the public where one (1) or more persons were present.

( (1) A person commits an offense who possesses a firearm, as defined in § 39-11-106, and:

(A) Has been convicted of a felony involving the use or attempted use of force, violence or a deadly weapon; or

( Has been convicted of a felony drug offense.

(2) An offense under subdivision ((1) is a Class E felony.

© (1) A person commits an offense who possesses a handgun and has been convicted of a felony.

(2) An offense under subdivision ©(1) is a Class E felony.

(d) (1) A person commits an offense who possesses a deadly weapon other than a firearm with the intent to employ it during the commission of, attempt to commit, or escape from a dangerous offense as defined in § 39-17-1324.

(2) A person commits an offense who possesses any deadly weapon with the intent to employ it during the commission of, attempt to commit, or escape from any offense not defined as a dangerous offense by § 39-17-1324.

(3) A violation of this subsection (d) is a Class E felony.

[Acts 1989, ch. 591, § 1; 1990, ch. 1029, § 6; 2007, ch. 412, § 1; 2007, ch. 594, § 3; 2008, ch. 1166, § 1; 2008, ch. 1176, § 1.]

doesnt mention chemical agents, or tasers.....

[Guest canynracer]

also doesnt mention them here:

39-17-1301. Part definitions. —

As used in this part, unless the context otherwise requires:

(1) “Club” means any instrument that is specially designed, made or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by striking a person with the instrument;

(2) “Crime of violence” includes any degree of murder, voluntary manslaughter, aggravated rape, rape, especially aggravated robbery, aggravated robbery, burglary, aggravated assault or aggravated kidnapping;

(3) (A) “Explosive weapon” means any explosive, incendiary or poisonous gas:

(i) Bomb;

(ii) Grenade;

(iii) Rocket;

(iv) Mine; or

(v) Shell, missile or projectile that is designed, made or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury, death or substantial property damage;

( “Explosive weapon” also means:

(i) Any breakable container which contains a flammable liquid with a flashpoint of one hundred fifty degrees Fahrenheit (150° F) or less and has a wick or similar device capable of being ignited, other than a device which is commercially manufactured primarily for purposes of illumination; or

(ii) Any sealed device containing dry ice or other chemically reactive substances for the purposes of causing an explosion by a chemical reaction;

(4) “Firearm silencer” means any device designed, made or adapted to muffle the report of a firearm;

(5) “Hoax device” means any device that reasonably appears to be or is purported to be an explosive or incendiary device and is intended to cause alarm or reaction of any type by an official of a public safety agency or a volunteer agency organized to deal with emergencies;

(6) “Immediate vicinity” refers to the area within the person's immediate control within which the person has ready access to the ammunition;

(7) “Knife” means any bladed hand instrument that is capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person with the instrument;

(8) “Knuckles” means any instrument that consists of finger rings or guards made of a hard substance and that is designed, made or adapted for the purpose of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by striking a person with a fist enclosed in the knuckles;

(9) “Machine gun” means any firearm that is capable of shooting more than two (2) shots automatically, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger;

(10) “Restricted firearm ammunition” means any cartridge containing a bullet coated with a plastic substance with other than a lead or lead alloy core or a jacketed bullet with other than a lead or lead alloy core or a cartridge of which the bullet itself is wholly composed of a metal or metal alloy other than lead. “Restricted firearm ammunition” does not include shotgun shells or solid plastic bullets;

(11) “Rifle” means any firearm designed, made or adapted to be fired from the shoulder and to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire a projectile through a rifled bore by a single function of the trigger;

(12) “Short barrel” means a barrel length of less than sixteen inches (16²) for a rifle and eighteen inches (18²) for a shotgun, or an overall firearm length of less than twenty-six inches (26²);

(13) “Shotgun” means any firearm designed, made or adapted to be fired from the shoulder and to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth-bore barrel either a number of ball shot or a single projectile by a single function of the trigger;

(14) “Switchblade knife” means any knife that has a blade which opens automatically by:

(A) Hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the handle; or

( Operation of gravity or inertia; and

(15) “Unloaded” means the rifle, shotgun or handgun does not have ammunition in the chamber, cylinder, clip or magazine, and no clip or magazine is in the immediate vicinity of the weapon.