Bolt vs. Semi

[memphismason]

I did a search and didn't find anything to my liking. So I would appreciate everyone's opinion and whatever facts they can bring to the table.

Is a Bolt action rifle more accurate than a Semi-Auto rifle?

How is that true?

Edited September 3, 2009 by memphismason

[Guest logicprevails]

I've always heard the bolt is inherently more accurate, but who needs 1/2 MOA for deer hunting? I'd say the 7400 in '06 is about as good a gun for deer as it gets around here.

[Trekbike]

IMO a bolt action is more accurate because they can make the chamber tighter and to closer tolerances since they don't have to worry about feeding and ejection reliability.

Also, just wondering if the fact they don't have to use a gas system to cycle the action has anything to do with it also?

But like logicprevails said, in the real world I don't think it makes enough difference to matter at the typical deer hunting distances.

Keep shooting what you got and tell them to shut up. Especially if you end up making more kills.

[oldogy]

If my deer gun is legal and gets the job done every time I would not get too concern about what someone else thought or comments they might make. Shoot it and enjoy the hunt.

oldogy

[memphismason]

I agree.

I am just wondering because I would like to fine tune my shooting and become a better marksman. I have looked into purchasing a bolt action.

Also note that this questions pertain to bolt action and semi auto in general. Not for hunting specifically.

I am going to the OP and take out the hunting part because that is not the point, nor important to the question.

Edited September 3, 2009 by memphismason

[nightrunner]

if you are wanting sub-3/4MOA yes you are probably better off getting a bolt action, but other than that it really doesnt matter. then it comes down to quality. There are ARs out there shooting sub-MOA without a problem. There are other semi-autos that people have shot groups in the 3/4MOA region. for example the FNAR.

The 7400 in .30-06 is just fine for deer hunting. True a model 700 maybe more accurate, but that is also going to depend on the shooter.

[Guest SureShot308]

As a general statement bolt action is more accurate then semi auto, at least in the same price range. There are some mighty fine semi auto rifles that can outshoot most bolt action rifles, but you are going to pay out the ass for them. As for fine tuning your marksmanship starting with bolt action will probably be more beneficial. It will keep your from just pulling the trigger round after round. you are more likely to focus shot to shot and get more out of every shot you take.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Good words SureShot

[DaveTN]

Yes, because generally bolt guns have more mass in the receiver, they have longer heavier barrels, and they can be held to tighter manufacturing tolerances.

But of course you really would have to compare two specific rifles.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

The Army Marksmenship Unit and the Marine Corps Rifle Team.. both shoot semi-auto M16's in National match competition.. these rifles and many like it will shoot .25 moa all day long. I once had a National match AR that would shoot SIE 80 gr bullets in the teens at a hundred yards.. umm that is benchrest quality..

[Hidalgo]

Yes, because generally bolt guns have more mass in the receiver, they have longer heavier barrels, and they can be held to tighter manufacturing tolerances.

But of course you really would have to compare two specific rifles.

FWIW ... longer barrels are inherently LESS accurate than shorter barrels. Go ahead and believe those wife's tales if you prefer. But I know better from experience. I have three 16" ARs with bull barrels that will shoot more accurately than any bolt gun you can find under the $1000 price tag. The shorter barrels are stiffer and have less harmonic resonance than a longer tube. And today's quality ARs are built to exacting tolerances also.

As for the bolt/semi comparison, it WAS true that a bolt gun is usually more accurate than a semi. But that is not the case anymore since the AR has evolved into the sporting realm. These rifles operate the same way as a bolt rifle ... the bolt is locked when the bullet begins it's trip down the barrel. The bullet is gone before the bolt moves because the locking lugs keep it stable. Not all semi rifles operate that way though. For my money, I'll take a well-built AR in proper operating condition with good optics any day. Been there ... done that.

[Guest 1shot]

Have you ever been to a bench rest rifle match? You won't find any semi-autos there. The reason the the USMC, Army/military shoots M-16's at the national matches is because that is the only rifle they can shoot in an across the course match. If you bought one of those rifles it would cost you many $$$$. Those are match rifles not your run of the mill M-16.

If you want accuracy in a less expensive rifle get a Savage 110 of similar model bolt rifle with an accu-trigger.

[Trekbike]

I agree.

I am just wondering because I would like to fine tune my shooting and become a better marksman.

Not sure if this would be of interest since you mentioned marksmanship. There are several shoots scheduled in TN. I personally haven't gone to one but I've heard some good comments.

The Appleseed Project

[leroy]

Have you ever been to a bench rest rifle match? You won't find any semi-autos there. The reason the the USMC, Army/military shoots M-16's at the national matches is because that is the only rifle they can shoot in an across the course match. If you bought one of those rifles it would cost you many $$$$. Those are match rifles not your run of the mill M-16.

If you want accuracy in a less expensive rifle get a Savage 110 of similar model bolt rifle with an accu-trigger.

This is a great answer. I agree completely. For practical shooting an AR type rifle is ok; so is a bolt gun.

RE: the accuracy question:

Take the time to Google for the 1000 yd benchrest shooting records. They all use an ultra heavy, long barreled, magnum cartridge custom bolt gun. The records are very impressive.

The military used to use both 300 win mag and 30 X 338 wildcat bolt guns for their 1000 yd slow fire matches. I don't know what they use now. Army and Marine snipers used to use bolt guns. Superior accuracy and bullet energy at long range is the reason.

In the interest of full disclosure; I'm partial to bolt guns for long range shooting. There are those among the shooting fraternity that can make a semi type rifle (M1A or AR) do great things. My problem with it is that it is hard to do over the long haul due to all the moving parts. It's true that these rifles fire from a locked bolt; but there is lots of action going on during the firing - reload cycle. The bolt gun does none of that. It is simple and not prone to wear.

AR type rifles have come a long way, but in my biased judgement, they aint in the same league with the bolt guns at long range.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

LEROY

[memphismason]

What makes a bolt action more accurate than a semi-auto?

[Guest Mugster]

What makes a bolt action more accurate than a semi-auto?

1. The ammo does not have to fit in a magazine so the seating depth of the bullet can be much shallower. If your using a single shot adapter in your semi, well, you might as well be using a bolt in the first place.

2. The barrel can be fully free-floated with no gas tube. Using an aluminum bedding block in a mass produced stock it can be done pretty cheaply.

3. The bolt positively closes with (usually at least 2) locking lugs and the bolt face can be trued by a machinist relative to the barrel. A semi must be in battery to fire or should be, lol. With most gas guns the tolerances for being "in battery" are not exactly the same every time.

Thats not to say a gas gun can't shoot. It just takes a little more work. Dollar for dollar, a bolt will win the accuracy arms race, imo. And the bolt will be more robust and hold its accuracy until the barrel is toast.

Also the short barrel comment above is accurate. A shorter barrel, all things being equal, will be more accurate than a longer pipe. But you give up using slower powders, so its more give and take than you might have been led to believe.

[Guest FroggyOne2]

The reason the the USMC, Army/military shoots M-16's at the national matches is because that is the only rifle they can shoot in an across the course match.

Wrong.. it is not the only rifle that they can shoot in X-course matches.. Sherry Galligher this year shot a Tubb 2000 all season.. would have won the NRA Nationals this year if she had not cross fired on third day in sitting rapid fire.. The rifle is chambered in 260 Remington. But she did set serveral new national records this year. High prone rapid (Women) High 1000 point National match score 999-67X, High 800 point agg.. 800 - 47X and a slue of others this year.. and won the National Championship in NRA Long Range. Sherry shoots for the USAMU. Other team members may shoot a match rifle instead of a service rifle.. as long as the team commander ok's it.. but in the Leg Matches and Service and Interservice matches.. Presidents Hundred, National Trophy Individual, National Team Trophy, National Team Infantry Trophy, then yes.. it is only service rifles..

cost.. in todays market.. it would cost about 2 grand to build a National match quality AR Service rifle. And that is the with the best of everything.

Edited September 4, 2009 by FroggyOne2

[Guest FroggyOne2]

The military used to use both 300 win mag and 30 X 338 wildcat bolt guns for their 1000 yd slow fire matches. I don't know what they use now.

6.5 X .284 Winchester

[Guest FroggyOne2]

Army and Marine snipers used to use bolt guns. Superior accuracy and bullet energy at long range is the reason.

The military requirement for the average M40 type or M24 type sniper rifle is 1.5 MOA.

Bullet used.. Sierra 175gr Match Kings

[Currently]

Here is a totally different point of view.

When I was younger, dumber and filled with testosterone ... I used to read the gun mags and lust after the biggest, baddest and mostest.

I had a Dillon that was equipped to reload over 30 calibers, pistol and rifle.

Most accurate rifle out the box hands down was a Weatherby Fibermark .270 Weatherby Magnum. Quarter MOA only with factory loads, never could duplicate that accuracy with handloads and I tried and tried all kinds of permutations.

It was an expensive habit so I got an FFL to try and offset the costs of components plus treat friends with good deals ...

Things I found out:

1. A FFL cannot compete with Walmart, Kmart and any other large retail giant when their firearms are on sale. They sell it for cheaper than I could buy as a dealer.

2. I could get more variety and specific models.

3. The best buys out there were new military surplus for new and used military surplus for used but the latter was a crapshoot, you could never count on what you were going to get.

4. If you look at TCO, Total Cost of Ownership; the best bang for the buck was always something that used a military round. Pistol calibers were 9mm and .45 ACP. Rifle calibers were .308, 30-06, 303 British, .223/5.56 or 7.62 AK round among the many.

If you like to shoot, get something in a military caliber. They are inexpensive because the ammunition factories load millions of rounds per batch, also known as economies of scale. There were times in the early '90's I could buy quality 5.56 thousand round lots for a little above the cost of .22LR at Kmart prices.

That has since dried up but like any other market condition, it will swing the other way eventually.

Moral of the story?

Lots of practice makes a good marksman ... not the firearm.

Military calibers typically have cheaper prices on ball ammo.

(Buy thousand round lots at a time)

Choose your caliber first and then look at the firearm.

(You can purchase hunting type ammo for hunting and practice with ball ammo)

Go shoot and shoot and shoot and make lots of noise.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Currently

[Smith]

Here is a totally different point of view.

When I was younger, dumber and filled with testosterone ... I used to read the gun mags and lust after the biggest, baddest and mostest.

I had a Dillon that was equipped to reload over 30 calibers, pistol and rifle.

Most accurate rifle out the box hands down was a Weatherby Fibermark .270 Weatherby Magnum. Quarter MOA only with factory loads, never could duplicate that accuracy with handloads and I tried and tried all kinds of permutations.

It was an expensive habit so I got an FFL to try and offset the costs of components plus treat friends with good deals ...

Things I found out:

1. A FFL cannot compete with Walmart, Kmart and any other large retail giant when their firearms are on sale. They sell it for cheaper than I could buy as a dealer.

2. I could get more variety and specific models.

3. The best buys out there were new military surplus for new and used military surplus for used but the latter was a crapshoot, you could never count on what you were going to get.

4. If you look at TCO, Total Cost of Ownership; the best bang for the buck was always something that used a military round. Pistol calibers were 9mm and .45 ACP. Rifle calibers were .308, 30-06, 303 British, .223/5.56 or 7.62 AK round among the many.

If you like to shoot, get something in a military caliber. They are inexpensive because the ammunition factories load millions of rounds per batch, also known as economies of scale. There were times in the early '90's I could buy quality 5.56 thousand round lots for a little above the cost of .22LR at Kmart prices.

That has since dried up but like any other market condition, it will swing the other way eventually.

Moral of the story?

Lots of practice makes a good marksman ... not the firearm.

Military calibers typically have cheaper prices on ball ammo.

(Buy thousand round lots at a time)

Choose your caliber first and then look at the firearm.

(You can purchase hunting type ammo for hunting and practice with ball ammo)

Go shoot and shoot and shoot and make lots of noise.

I think you missed the question?

Mugster's post was excellent! The way it was explained to me was that the bolt is inherently more accurate due to simplicity. Because of the simplicity, it can be manufactured and tuned to a finer detail without as many compromises.

That being said, I don't think there are many of us that can out shoot our guns yet.

[memphismason]

Excellent post Mugster that is what I was looking for.

Hey smith, isn't funny how some of the simplest questions get lost in a story?

[Guest 70below]

Simplicity, tighter tolerances, better ergonomics (generally speaking), trigger tuning, and barrel harmonics tend to make a bolt gun more accurate. Not to say those things can't be found in a semi, but as been mentioned, they're going to cost more generally speaking.

[leroy]

I think you missed the question?

Mugster's post was excellent! The way it was explained to me was that the bolt is inherently more accurate due to simplicity. Because of the simplicity, it can be manufactured and tuned to a finer detail without as many compromises.

That being said, I don't think there are many of us that can out shoot our guns yet.

Amen brother!! Excellent observation. Mugster's post was, indeed, a thorough and accurate answer to the question. As for Smith's quip:

Right on target.

Again to both opiners; a most excellent reply. Worthy of taking to heart, because they are both full of wisdom and truth -- indeed, a rare commidity now days!!!

Keep up the good work!

Kind regards,

LEROY

[Currently]

I thought the Mugster and Froggy both answered the question much better than what I would have. Points made were lucid and comprehensive. Why should I repeat what they said using different words?

That is why I prefaced my post with "a totally different point of view".

Is one type of rifle more accurate than the other?

The real answer is how much money you want to spend.

A match quality semi auto will be slightly more expensive than a match quality bolt action.

Some calibers lend themselves better to semi auto than others.

Hence a caliber should be chosen first and then focus on the firearm.

What do you want to shoot? 1500 yards? First choice here would be Browning .50 cal

Why? Economies of scale.

500 to a thousand yards? .308 or similar ... why? Ammo is available in all grades and qualities.

That is the point I wanted to make.

It was a hard lesson for me to learn. When you buy a tool, don't look at the price of the tool, look at the TCO ... how much do the consumables cost you and are they readily accessible.

A "pretty rifle" in a gun case is a jewel ... good for show and bragging rights.

A well used rifle in the hands of a competent shooter is a tool.

Am I wrong and totally off base for sharing my experience and wisdom?

Or did I just say too much and now considered a fool for doing so?

Enlighten me please.

(I do have an open mind and can take criticism ... it is an acquired skill that takes work to maintain.)

Edited September 4, 2009 by Currently