Man arrested for constructive possesion

[~48_South~]

This is a pretty wild story its crazy some of the laws that are out there that most of us dont seem to know about however I think anyone that has any class 3's or that is planning on getting into class 3's should read this story this guys life is more than likely ruined over a very simple mistake.

Prince Law Offices

[Smith]

Man that's unfortunate!

[Guest Jcochran88]

Yep, unfortunate! But it is our burden to know all the laws before doing something like this.

[Guest redbarron06]

That is why my lower is at home and my upper is at the office seperated by more than 30 miles until I get my form 1 back (going on 4 and a half months now).

[ioerror001]

suprised more aren't busted that way, I saw a tec-9 with a foregrip on it in the pics on gun broker a couple years back, I think they closed the auction but I e-mailed the seller and at the time it was closed no leo action on it. Guess they can't catch them all.

[~48_South~]

suprised more aren't busted that way, I saw a tec-9 with a foregrip on it in the pics on gun broker a couple years back, I think they closed the auction but I e-mailed the seller and at the time it was closed no leo action on it. Guess they can't catch them all.

Yeah you can find a bunch of illegal firearms on the gun auction sites I even warned one guy and he acted like Im crazy and still has the gun listed its a open bolt mac semi auto with a front strap on it.

[Guest eyebedam]

Man that really sucks. I hope it all works out for him. Either way its gonna cost him a ton of time money & headaches.

[TripleDigitRide]

He'll not get out of this one. They have him by the balls. Intentional. or not, he should have known better.

Attempting to sell guns on Craigslist was his first mistake. Although not illegal, it's no secret that it's strictly against their policy to sell firearms. Chances are, his ad was "flagged" more than once before the LE got to him.

[Photoguy67]

I wonder when the American people will stand up and demand these stupid (NFA) laws to be overturned.

[TripleDigitRide]

I wonder when the American people will stand up and demand these stupid (NFA) laws to be overturned.

Not likely to happen anytime soon. It's far easier to bitch about it on the Internet.

[~48_South~]

Not likely to happen anytime soon. It's far easier to bitch about it on the Internet.

Lol very true

[Guest bkelm18]

Lesson learned: Learn the law and don't **** with the ATF.

[Guest SLICKYINC]

So if I have a registered AR pistol lower, but have a forgrip on another one of my AR rifles would that be considered constructive possession?

[Guest crotalus01]

Yeah you can find a bunch of illegal firearms on the gun auction sites I even warned one guy and he acted like Im crazy and still has the gun listed its a open bolt mac semi auto with a front strap on it.

Thats not illegal. The front strap does not meet the definition of a forward grip as it is not rigid. Now if it was a semi with the OEM stock that would be a huge no-no, (I saw one of those on Gunbroker last year, dont know what happened with it). Open or closed bolt has nothing to do with either as they are not illegal or regulated in and of themselves. BATFE strongly discouraged the manufacture of new open bolt guns, but they were never banned or regulated in any way (they likely would have been had the manufacturers chosen to ignore the warning).

[~48_South~]

Thats not illegal. The front strap does not meet the definition of a forward grip as it is not rigid. Now if it was a semi with the OEM stock that would be a huge no-no, (I saw one of those on Gunbroker last year, dont know what happened with it). Open or closed bolt has nothing to do with either as they are not illegal or regulated in and of themselves. BATFE strongly discouraged the manufacture of new open bolt guns, but they were never banned or regulated in any way (they likely would have been had the manufacturers chosen to ignore the warning).

Are you sure it has to be rigid? I have looked everywhere and can not find the ATF's definition of a grip and the guys on uzi talk are about 50/50 on it being legal/illegal. The only mac I own is a m11-9 smg so it doesnt affect me either way. However it would not suprise me to see someone get arrested for having a front strap seeing as how its used as a forward grip.

[~48_South~]

So if I have a registered AR pistol lower, but have a forgrip on another one of my AR rifles would that be considered constructive possession?

No thats legal as long as there is a proper(legal) host weapon for the grip you are good to go just as long as its not attached to the pistol.

[TNTitan]

This is a pretty wild story its crazy some of the laws that are out there that most of us dont seem to know about however I think anyone that has any class 3's or that is planning on getting into class 3's should read this story this guys life is more than likely ruined over a very simple mistake.

Prince Law Offices

so what kind of repercussions is this guy facing?

[~48_South~]

so what kind of repercussions is this guy facing?

Ok I did find out that he got arrested for violating a Florida State law and more than likely the Feds arent gonna pick up the case due to the nature of it even though technically they could I dont think they are interested in wasting tax payer money on something that is such an easy mistake for people to make at the moment. So if he is charged under state law I imagine he will get around 5 years more than likely on probation but he will be a felon from now on.

Florida law states:

790.221 Possession of short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or machine gun; penalty.––

(1) It is unlawful for any person to own or to have in his or her care, custody, possession, or control any short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or machine gun which is, or may readily be made, operable; but this section shall not apply to antique firearms.

The picture he posted and his own comments show that an SBR can be "or may readily be made, operable" in a matter of seconds. Thus he meets the exact definition of the law.

The Fed Definition is not as favorable (for Prosecution) as the FL definition:

(8) The term ``short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or

more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from

a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such

weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six

inches.

However the Federal Case law is much more favorable. Lots of folks have been convicted (and convictions upheld on appeal), for similar situations.

Generally Feds no longer have to prove Constructive Possession anymore, Case Law or changes to the law in recent years, now covers anything they would have to prove.

[Guest 1817ak47]

7 cops and being beaten down and they drive his car around and search it. I hear to many stories of florida police abusing there power. fortunately tn doesn't have too many power hungry officers.

[Guest crotalus01]

48South, I also have not been able to find the definition of a forward grip but have been told by an FFL that the strap is legal. I have also seen semi Macs being sold with the strap many times. Maybe its a grey area, or maybe the ATF is smart enough to realize its a safety issue - you really need somethiing to hold on to, even with the semi autos. I really dont see the difference between the front strap and installing a sling and wrapping it when firing...but then again, I am not an ATF agent.

[~48_South~]

48South, I also have not been able to find the definition of a forward grip but have been told by an FFL that the strap is legal. I have also seen semi Macs being sold with the strap many times. Maybe its a grey area, or maybe the ATF is smart enough to realize its a safety issue - you really need somethiing to hold on to, even with the semi autos. I really dont see the difference between the front strap and installing a sling and wrapping it when firing...but then again, I am not an ATF agent.

Yeah next to calling the ATF and actually asking them I have no clue Ive asked alot of people and most seem to think its legal however there are quite a few that think that the ATF can kinda make up rules as they go and its not worth the risk.

[Guest crotalus01]

Same here. I do recall it was discussed on one forum or another I was on a while back and someone stated that in order for it to be considered a "grip" by the ATF that it had to be "rigid".

I will ask at some other sites and let you know what they say (now I want to know too dammit)...

[Guest crotalus01]

Got the answer from Uzitalk forums. They are legal, or at least they were. A few folks bought semi Macs in the late '90s that came with the strap installed from the factory - I am thinking the manufacturer would know if they were selling an illegal product.

[Guest jimdigriz]

Lesson learned: Learn the law and don't **** with the ATF.

Because, any agency that can kill you with impunity will think nothing of ruining your life over a technicality.

[redfsr]

The straps are 100% legal. This is per the ATF Firearms Technology Branch. If they are rigid fixed handles they are not but the canvas or leather straps are fine. The collapsable stock in crotalus01's avatar is however an issue. You can't have the shoulder stock on there unless it is registered as a SBR.