Cold bore firing?

[Guest hodgesmp]

So I have been wondering, I watch a lot of hunting shows about hunting. I see a lot of long very accurate shots being made but I never hear them talking about taking a cold bore shot(I work in television so I understand that the boring stuff doesn't make it to the air). Does it really matter? If it does how often do you need to fire a rifle for it not to be cold?

[Cajun]

I doubt they are firing off a warning round.

[Chumney]

A cold bore shot refers to the first shot taken with the rifle, with a clean bore at near the temperature of its surroundings. It is usually referred as the first shot of the day as the bore heats up the point of impact can change.

[Guest GunTroll]

A cold bore shot refers to the first shot taken with the rifle, with a clean bore at near the temperature of its surroundings. It is usually referred as the first shot of the day as the bore heats up the point of impact can change.

This is right on!

[Guest hodgesmp]

So how much does it matter? I have heard that the first shot is much less accurate. Should I fire a round before I head into the woods. That seems to defeat the purpose of a quiet morning in the woods.

[Guest GunTroll]

So how much does it matter? I have heard that the first shot is much less accurate. Should I fire a round before I head into the woods. That seems to defeat the purpose of a quiet morning in the woods.

Wouldn't fire a round if you want to see critters around for the taking. The first shot is always your best. When you zero your scope/sight take a shot or three and then adjust and let your barrel cool. Try again with shooting a few and check impact. Once it doesn't change your good to go. The more rounds you pump out the less accurate your rifle will be. Think heat expand-cool contract. Tighter rifling/bore = better accuracy.

[Guest Jcochran88]

Cold core for hunting is just fine, you are not trying to put it in a 1/2 inch cirle your just trying to put it in the vitals. So unless you are really long range 600 plus or shooting at stuff like prarie dogs, I don't think it really matters.

[gregintenn]

A clean barrel will affect your point of impact much more than temperature. The colder the ambient temeperature, the lower a rifle will shoot, but the effect is negligible; unless you are hunting polar bear or the like. I suggest you fire a fouling shot after scrubbing your bore before hunting.

[Guest 1shot]

When you are at the range checking your zero before your hunt, ( I hope you do this). After you shoot and get everything zeroed like you want. Then clean your bore and dry it and then fire one fouling shot. You will be good to go on your hunt. The first shot out of a clean bore usually strikes about 1" higher and to the left a bit for me. I do have one 308 Win custom rifle that will put a clean bore shot in the exact place as all the other shots. This is a rare thing.

[Guest Mugster]

When you are at the range checking your zero before your hunt, ( I hope you do this). After you shoot and get everything zeroed like you want. Then clean your bore and dry it and then fire one fouling shot. You will be good to go on your hunt. The first shot out of a clean bore usually strikes about 1" higher and to the left a bit for me. I do have one 308 Win custom rifle that will put a clean bore shot in the exact place as all the other shots. This is a rare thing.

+1, I'll get sighted in and happy with my load over several range trips. The last trip I don't clean my rifle. Temp and fouling are the biggies. Once it turns cold you should verify your zero, even on a 50 yard deer rifle.

[Hidalgo]

You guys are hilarious.

Cold, hard facts:

A clean bore is an ACCURATE bore. It don't get "more accurate" after firing a "fouling shot".

I shoot extremely long range very regularly. The first shot out of the rifle is as accurate as the 4th, 6th, etc. The only time accuracy changes is ...

When the barrel heats up (it's not going to do that hunting)

When the barrel starts getting dirty.

Want your rifle to shoot to point-of-aim with a cold bore? Take it to the range...CLEAN. Shoot ONE round. Let it sit 60 seconds as you make scope/sight adjustments. Shoot another round. Repeat. Then clean the bore. Shoot 1 round again with a clean bore. If it shoots to suit you, then you're done. Take it home and clean it. If not, repeat until it shoots where you aim. Always check accuracy with a clean, cold bore. And store it clean. That's the only way you can eliminate the variables (just how dirty is it?)

[gregintenn]

You guys are hilarious.

Cold, hard facts:

A clean bore is an ACCURATE bore. It don't get "more accurate" after firing a "fouling shot".

It has been my experience that the first shot from a clean bore does NOT group with subsequent shots fired without further cleaning. I didn't mean to say that a clean bore wasn't accurate. I'm not anal enough to try it, but I would surmise that a rifle would shoot a very good group if you cleaned the bore between every shot. Try this: Clean the bore of your rifle thoroughly. Fire a three shot group from it. Then, on a clean target, fire another three shot group. Post your results here. The first group from a clean bore will contain a "flyer". That will be the first shot. It usually isn't enough of a difference to matter when hunting deer at reasonable distances, but would be a killer in competition.

[Hidalgo]

It has been my experience that the first shot from a clean bore does NOT group with subsequent shots fired without further cleaning.

Sorry, but your experiences are WAY different from mine. I shoot on average 300-400 rounds per month. Sometimes way more than that. I go to SD twice a year and shoot 1500-2000 rounds at prairie dogs. Any of my rifles will easily put the first, second, and third rounds within 1" of each other. And there is usually no change in accuracy for 50-60 rounds. I have bone-stock Ruger VT's and custom built ARs. They all seem to react the same.

In your defense ... every bore is different and reacts differently to certain powders and their fouling properties. And some people tend to leave more oil or whatever in a bore when they "clean" it. Lubricants can and will make certain changes to POI, especially if the owner gets enthusiastic about oiling the bore. And the stock/barrel relationship can also have a hand in this. Barrels that are not free-floated properly can change POI significantly. Unfortunately, most of the rifles carried by Tennessee deer hunters are of the type and configuration that do not have adequate clearance ... or none at all (barrel band).

BUT.... if we are talking about deer hunting in Tennessee, my response would be: ... "WHO CARES?" If your rifle changes POI enough to miss a deer at the ranges that most shots are taken in this area, then you need another rifle

Edited September 3, 2009 by Hidalgo

[gregintenn]

Lubricants can and will make certain changes to POI, especially if the owner gets enthusiastic about oiling the bore.

I never really considered this. It certainly sounds reasonable. Thanks.

[Guest Mugster]

Sorry, but your experiences are WAY different from mine. I shoot on average 300-400 rounds per month. Sometimes way more than that. I go to SD twice a year and shoot 1500-2000 rounds at prairie dogs. Any of my rifles will easily put the first, second, and third rounds within 1" of each other. And there is usually no change in accuracy for 50-60 rounds. I have bone-stock Ruger VT's and custom built ARs. They all seem to react the same.

In your defense ... every bore is different and reacts differently to certain powders and their fouling properties. And some people tend to leave more oil or whatever in a bore when they "clean" it. Lubricants can and will make certain changes to POI, especially if the owner gets enthusiastic about oiling the bore. And the stock/barrel relationship can also have a hand in this. Barrels that are not free-floated properly can change POI significantly. Unfortunately, most of the rifles carried by Tennessee deer hunters are of the type and configuration that do not have adequate clearance ... or none at all (barrel band).

BUT.... if we are talking about deer hunting in Tennessee, my response would be: ... "WHO CARES?" If your rifle changes POI enough to miss a deer at the ranges that most shots are taken in this area, then you need another rifle

First, we don't hunt with long range 15 pound distance queens. We use practical rifles in the 6.5 to 7.5 pound range. With a medium or lightweight profile barrel, you can clean it all night long, once it gets hot with one shot, your POI is going to shift. A minute is not enough time to cool it.

Second, I do care about the first shot. I usually hunt on the ground and most of my shots with my normal rifles are in the 50-275 yard range, which is basically an MPBR zero with glass mounted up about 2.5". Thats enough that I worry about it a little. I don't really care how many dogs you blast in sodak or holes you punch in paper. None of that is topical to deer hunting where one shot may be all your gonna get. We don't have the luxury of spotting shots, massive spotting scopes, or taking a shooting bench with us to the field.

Third, try a ruger mini-14/30 some time if you want to experience "cold bore" drift on a perfectly clean barrel. An M1A with a service weight barrel is pretty bad too, or at least the one my buddy had was.

And finally, your oil comment is accurate, imo. But then, who would not store a rifle long term without oil in the barrel? The best way to clean it out of there is to shoot it. And in terms of cleaning, thats something I do after the season is done with. With modern smokeless powders, there's no harm in leaving a barrel fouled for a few weeks during the season.

So I still see no compelling argument not to sight in or shoot one round after cleaning as the last thing you do before you head out to hunt.

[Guest GunTroll]

This is some anal hunting info here! I have never even thought of any of this stuff when I'm in the deer woods. Usually thinking of the wind, my smell, the real world I just escaped from for a bit, deer, the rut (hopefully), the ground and not hitting it from a fall, taking a pee/poop, etc. Sight in your gun. CLEAN it and go hunting.

THE END

[memphismason]

Anal or not, it is still a question, and that is the only way people learn.

This is a discussion forum.

Keep thread on topic.

[gregintenn]

This is some anal hunting info here! I have never even thought of any of this stuff when I'm in the deer woods. Usually thinking of the wind, my smell, the real world I just escaped from for a bit, deer, the rut (hopefully), the ground and not hitting it from a fall, taking a pee/poop, etc. Sight in your gun. CLEAN it and go hunting.

THE END

When I put this much effort into hunting deer, I certainly want to be sure I can hit the thing when it walks by. If that's anal, I'm guilty as charged. Besides, you should think of these things BEFORE you are in the deer woods.

[Hidalgo]

First, we don't hunt with long range 15 pound distance queens. We use practical rifles in the 6.5 to 7.5 pound range. With a medium or lightweight profile barrel, you can clean it all night long, once it gets hot with one shot, your POI is going to shift. A minute is not enough time to cool it.

Who said I was referring to "15 pound distance queens" ?!?! That's something that you conjured up in your mind. My hunting rifles are 7-8 pound rifles.

Second, I do care about the first shot. I usually hunt on the ground and most of my shots with my normal rifles are in the 50-275 yard range, which is basically an MPBR zero with glass mounted up about 2.5". That's enough that I worry about it a little.

I would be willing to wager that 98% of the deer taken in Tennessee are taken with shots under 50 yards. Sorry I didn't cover EVERY possible scenario.

I don't really care how many dogs you blast in sodak or holes you punch in paper. None of that is topical to deer hunting where one shot may be all your gonna get. We don't have the luxury of spotting shots, massive spotting scopes, or taking a shooting bench with us to the field.

Yeah ... I understand. I don't carry spotting scopes or shooting benches with me when I coyote hunt. But that's got nothing to do with what I said ......

Third, try a ruger mini-14/30 some time if you want to experience "cold bore" drift on a perfectly clean barrel. An M1A with a service weight barrel is pretty bad too, or at least the one my buddy had was.

The Mini was an inherently inaccurate rifle. Cold or hot, it didn't matter. Ask anyone who owns one.

And finally, your oil comment is accurate, imo. But then, who would not store a rifle long term without oil in the barrel? The best way to clean it out of there is to shoot it. And in terms of cleaning, that's something I do after the season is done with. With modern smokeless powders, there's no harm in leaving a barrel fouled for a few weeks during the season.

Perhaps you didn't understand my statement. I was referring to LOTS of oil in the barrel. And FWIW, none of my rifles are put away without being cleaned. And they're plenty accurate, thank you.

So I still see no compelling argument not to sight in or shoot one round after cleaning as the last thing you do before you head out to hunt.

I see no problems with that either! If that's what makes you feel good then by all means do it. But the fact remains ... a cold bore is going to be what your first shot (which you said was most important) is going to come from. Now ... if you subscribe to your theory of storing a rifle "dirty" (for lack of another term) and you hunt during a rain, are you going to leave all that moisture in your bore? Or are you going to clean it when you get home? And if you DO clean it, then are you going to have to find someplace to fire a shot before you go back into the woods tomorrow? Seems to me that knowing how your rifle shoots when clean would be the best way to avoid any confusion and trips to the range to "fire a fouling shot" before you go hunt.

[Guest GunTroll]

Anal or not, it is still a question, and that is the only way people learn.

This is a discussion forum.

Keep thread on topic.

Who is off topic? Assuming someone was.

[Guest GunTroll]

When I put this much effort into hunting deer, I certainly want to be sure I can hit the thing when it walks by. If that's anal, I'm guilty as charged. Besides, you should think of these things BEFORE you are in the deer woods.

What is the average range you harvest animals? 100 yrds? 200,1000? or under 100?

If you want to be thorough then by all means. I'm guilty as well. I just put thought towards things that are more relevant than a fouling shot.

[memphismason]

Who is off topic? Assuming someone was.

When a question is asked and you respond without an answer to the question, that my friend it not staying on topic. This is a topic about cold bore firing, not what you think is more important to hunting than the accuracy of ones rifle.

It is the same as if someone would ask "Which should I buy a Glock or a Sig?" and someone replies "Save your money and buy a HK". It relates to the topic, but brings nothing to the table on answering the question.

10-4

[Guest GunTroll]

When a question is asked and you respond without an answer to the question, that my friend it not staying on topic. This is a topic about cold bore firing, not what you think is more important to hunting than the accuracy of ones rifle.

It is the same as if someone would ask "Which should I buy a Glock or a Sig?" and someone replies "Save your money and buy a HK". It relates to the topic, but brings nothing to the table on answering the question.

10-4

Ah ha. Got it. So to stay "on topic" Clean barrel. Shoot straight. Eat animal with the satisfaction of knpwing a clean/dirty,cold barrel sealed the deal.

[gregintenn]

What is the average range you harvest animals? 100 yrds? 200,1000? or under 100?

If you want to be thorough then by all means. I'm guilty as well. I just put thought towards things that are more relevant than a fouling shot.

The average distance I kill deer is well within 100 yards. I have killed a deer at an honest 400 yards. My line of thinking is that since a human is involved in the process of harvesting game, there is going to be some error. I like to remove all error I can control to make more room for the error I can't control. I like to know that if I do my part, my trusty Winchester will do it's part as well.

[Guest Mugster]

Who said I was referring to "15 pound distance queens" ?!?! That's something that you conjured up in your mind. My hunting rifles are 7-8 pound rifles.

I would be willing to wager that 98% of the deer taken in Tennessee are taken with shots under 50 yards. Sorry I didn't cover EVERY possible scenario.

Yeah ... I understand. I don't carry spotting scopes or shooting benches with me when I coyote hunt. But that's got nothing to do with what I said ......

The Mini was an inherently inaccurate rifle. Cold or hot, it didn't matter. Ask anyone who owns one.

Perhaps you didn't understand my statement. I was referring to LOTS of oil in the barrel. And FWIW, none of my rifles are put away without being cleaned. And they're plenty accurate, thank you.

I see no problems with that either! If that's what makes you feel good then by all means do it. But the fact remains ... a cold bore is going to be what your first shot (which you said was most important) is going to come from. Now ... if you subscribe to your theory of storing a rifle "dirty" (for lack of another term) and you hunt during a rain, are you going to leave all that moisture in your bore? Or are you going to clean it when you get home? And if you DO clean it, then are you going to have to find someplace to fire a shot before you go back into the woods tomorrow? Seems to me that knowing how your rifle shoots when clean would be the best way to avoid any confusion and trips to the range to "fire a fouling shot" before you go hunt.

In terms of rain I put a plastic bag with rubber bands over my bore. Or a condom works. You should do this regardless on those steamy mornings when the frost goes into the air. I do this for optics also on really nasty days.

In terms of sighting in and then hunting as the last thing you do, I don't see that as being complex. The fact of the matter is, its pretty simple. I also don't see how its difficult to pace off 50/100 yards or whatever and stick a target up to verify zero, in the unlikely event I drop my rifle in the creek or something...as thats the only way I'd get water in the barrel. And no, you don't need to oil it if you do this. The act of firing will get all the water vapor out of your barrel.

And actually, I know exactly where most of my rifles shoot when cold, and with most of them depending on the round, its 1-2" high at 200 yards. I guess I could methodically compensate, I just don't see the need. Most rifles will do this. My sendero does not do this btw, its pretty consistent clean or dirty. My mini (i own one btw) throws the first shot 5-6" to the 11 o'clock when clean and mostly oil-free. Almost all mini's will do that too, FYI.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. If your happy with what your rifles are doing in the field, I guess thats it. Those of us that field hunt for both coyote and big bucks, probably need to be able to hit out to as far as reasonably possible. As it allows you to cover that extra fence crossing, treeline, acorn patch, turnip patch, or what have you without moving.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Mugster
cleaned it up