Properly Posted or Not?

[Fallguy]

As has been discussed several times in other threads, that sign is still required by the liquor laws. ...and it still applies to anyone that doesn't have a HCP that carries in a place where alcohol is served for onsite consumption.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

True. Sounds like a 16 year old friend I had growing up who pretended that there was no speed limit if he felt speed limit signs weren't posted close enough together.

Well put. If you're primary plan is to disregard both the law and the owner's wishes, you aren't a very good planner. Feigning ignorance as an excuse to do as you please is something I'd expect from an adolescent, not a grown permittee.

[Guest louderthebetter]

For me,its simple.I do what I've done for all my adult life and I'm 65 now.I don't ask and I don't tell.I make it my business to make sure I don't flash my gun or carry in a way it shows thru my clothes and if by chance the crap ever hits the fan and I have to use it then I'm sure I'll catch hell for doing it but I'll be ALIVE to catch hell for doing it but,thats just me.

Oh and by the way,do any of you think the bad guys give a flip about the signs they post about "no guns allowed"..I don't think so.

I guess it all boils down to the fact that I'm willing to bet 500.00 bucks that I don't get caught with the means to protect my family when were out somewhere.

If I get busted because I got lax and someone saw I was packin then so be it but if push ever came to shove,500.00 is a cheap price to pay..

Now all you little do-gooders that don't approve, do what works for you and I'll do the same.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

:up:If following the law is being a "do-gooder", count me in.

[Guest mikedwood]

Guys and gals keep this under your hats.

It seems like 80% of the resturants around here that said they wouldn't allow guns in have not posted yet.

[Mariner]

:up:If following the law is being a "do-gooder", count me in.

Same here.

[memphismason]

This is getting ridiculous.

Obeying a law is a completely different thing than deciphering a piss-poor sign. I refuse to try to "figure out" or "interpret" what anyone wants me to do. Either tell me in the proper manner, or move to the side cause I am fat and hungry.

I have trained myself to look for a "proper sign" when I enter a restaurant. If I do not see one I keep on trucking. I don't stop to read every sign they have posted at the entrance. If I did that would take all night long.

On entering a Chili's (Poplar and Perkins) I stopped on the way in, because I noticed a sign with a Tennessee Code printed on it. I read it and it pertained to requesting id to sell a person alcohol. I was relieved, and went on in. The point is, the TN code part caught my eye. Because I am a responsible and informed citizen I know what to look for. If it is not a proper sign, I more than likely won't even notice it.

The sign at buffalo wild wings is so ridiculous, that I passed it on three different occasions without ever seeing it. and I stopped at the door looked all around for a sign (because a friend told me that they had posted) and didn't see one. It wasn't until my fourth trip there that I finally noticed the sign.

here is the Buffalo Wild Wings sign.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

+1 Bill and Mariner. I'd hate to have to articulate in court that I couldn't understand plain English.

Same here.

[memphismason]

+1 Bill and Mariner. I'd hate to have to articulate in court that I couldn't understand plain English.

I would love to articulate in court that the manager can not read laws printed in plain english, instead of leaving my wife and daughter without ahusband or father due to "pookie" coming in and shooting me in a "gun free zone".

now put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

Precisely.

+1 Bill and Mariner. I'd hate to have to articulate in court that I couldn't understand plain English.

[memphismason]

edited, because I am just faning a fire.

[Mariner]

O.K this is my last post for this thread and it is not aimed at anyone. But I keep hearing how crooks will be attracted to places that ban guns because they know that HCP holders can't carry there and so the permit holder will have to carry there to protect themselves. Now I just got my HCP a short time back so I am no expert, but wasn't it illegal to carry in places that served alcohol before the law went into effect. Did the crooks just get smarter and now they see the light. if you carried in these places back then, you were in violation of the law, in which case those people need to stop trying to convince me that the only reason you would go in is because the signage is wrong. if as memphismason said you missed the sign, then you really have done nothing wrong, again IMO. I have to admit that the one he shows in the picture is really not that visable. Of course I may be blind as I have not seen a single place I frequent in Crossville posted.

[macville]

O.K this is my last post for this thread and it is not aimed at anyone. But I keep hearing how crooks will be attracted to places that ban guns because they know that HCP holders can't carry there and so the permit holder will have to carry there to protect themselves. Now I just got my HCP a short time back so I am no expert, but wasn't it illegal to carry in places that served alcohol before the law went into effect. Did the crooks just get smarter and now they see the light.

You are in the mindset that most criminals are smart. That is simply not true. Most really are pretty stupid, at least that's true here in TN. I think for most criminals, it's all about odds. It's been perfectly legal for business owners and employees to carry where booze has been served. However, before the law took place, criminals didn't know if owners would be armed. Now, if they see a no guns sign, I would think that their thinking would be the owners are anti-gun and therefore probably won't be packing.

Of course, nothing really seems to stop criminals except when you are able to pull your own gun.

Matthew

[kellyII]

Well for me, I have to say that if the restaurant is posted legally or not, they will not get any of my hard earned money.

I will go down the road where me and my weapon are welcomed...

[Guest jwb68]

I guess it comes down the what is considered "substantially similar" wording. That is very relative and ultimately its up to the Judge to decide. He may very well say that ALL of these improper postings are "substantially similar" to the recommended verbiage and in that case, this entire thread is moot.

Which the smartest and most likely scenario that has been posted about his thread. Substantially similar is subjective. It is NOT defined in the statute and as a result a judge has much discretion when interpreting it. When your ass gets fined 500.00 for ignoring the sign and you find out it will cost you 10k to appeal it to circuit (where you will most likely lose) and then another 20k to go on to the Court of Appeals well….you do the math.

Of course a country judge will probably let you off! lol

Edited September 11, 2009 by jwb68

[Daniel]

There is a significantly similiar verbage required.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/firearms-law-faq/21580-tca-39-17-1359-tennessee-prohibition-carry-notice.html

In addition to the sign, notice may also include the international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle. The sign shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, premises or property and shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

PURSUANT TO § 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500).

Bump

[Guest jwb68]

The only thing 39-17-1359 really says clearly is that signs are required and an international sign by itself does not comply. What is "plainly visible to the average person?" Is a 2inch by 2inch sign posted in the bottom right corner of the door adequate. What if the 2x2 sign quotes the statute word for word? How big is big enough? What if I want to hang it beside my door? Or on a sign that list other stuff I dont want on my property. Is that plainly visible?

And significantly similar means what exactly? If the purpose of the sign is to give notice that I dont want weapons on my property why does a sign that says No firearms on premises with or without an international slash good enough? Just because I don't tell you what will happen to you if you break the law? I don't have to tell you what will happen to you if you leave my property stealing something that doesnt belong to you in order to have you prosecuted for theft. Why is enforcing my property rights any different? If property ownership is special (and it is according to 200 years of case law) Why do I have to warn someone of the consequences of coming on to my property with a firearm in order to keep firearms off my property? Other than telling you what will happen to you if you bring a weapon on my property, how is "No Firearms on the Premises" with a picture of a gun with a slash through it not substantially similar? I am giving you notice I do not want firearms (No Firearms) and I am telling you where I do not want them (on the premises) For those that can't read English I am painting you a picture. How is that not communicating my intentions?

Edited September 11, 2009 by jwb68

[Daniel]

shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

[Daniel]

(TCA 39-17-1359) Tennessee Prohibition Of Carry Notice

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

39-17-1359. Prohibition at certain meetings — Posting notice. —

(a) An individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by any person otherwise authorized by §§ 39-17-1351 — 39-17-1360, at meetings conducted by, or on property owned, operated, or managed or under the control of the individual, corporation, business entity or government entity. Notice of the prohibition shall be posted. Posted notices shall be displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the building, portion of the building or buildings where weapon possession is prohibited. If the possession of weapons is also prohibited on the premises of the property as well as within the confines of a building located on the property, the notice shall be posted at all entrances to the premises that are primarily used by persons entering the property. The notice shall be in English but a notice may also be posted in any language used by patrons, customers or persons who frequent the place where weapon possession is prohibited. In addition to the sign, notice may also include the international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle. The sign shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, premises or property and shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

PURSUANT TO § 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500).

( Nothing in this section shall be construed to alter, reduce or eliminate any civil or criminal liability that a property owner or manager may have for injuries arising on their property.

© Any posted notice being used by a local, state or federal governmental entity on July 1, 2000, that is in substantial compliance with the provisions of subsection (a) of this section may continue to be used by the governmental entity.

(d) The provisions of this section shall not apply to title 70 regarding wildlife laws, rules and regulations.

[Acts 1996, ch. 905, § 11; 2000, ch. 929, § 1.]

[memphismason]

The only thing 39-17-1359 really says clearly is that signs are required and an international sign by itself does not comply. What is "plainly visible to the average person?" Is a 2inch by 2inch sign posted in the bottom right corner of the door adequate. What if the 2x2 sign quotes the statute word for word? How big is big enough? What if I want to hang it beside my door? Or on a sign that list other stuff I dont want on my property. Is that plainly visible?

And significantly similar means what exactly? If the purpose of the sign is to give notice that I dont want weapons on my property why does a sign that says No firearms on premises with or without an international slash good enough? Just because I don't tell you what will happen to you if you break the law? I don't have to tell you what will happen to you if you leave my property stealing something that doesnt belong to you in order to have you prosecuted for theft. Why is enforcing my property rights any different? If property ownership is special (and it is according to 200 years of case law) Why do I have to warn someone of the consequences of coming on to my property with a firearm in order to keep firearms off my property? Other than telling you what will happen to you if you bring a weapon on my property, how is "No Firearms on the Premises" with a picture of a gun with a slash through it not substantially similar? I am giving you notice I do not want firearms (No Firearms) and I am telling you where I do not want them (on the premises) For those that can't read English I am painting you a picture. How is that not communicating my intentions?

You are comparing apples to roof shingles.

Stealing from your property is a crime.

Bringing a firearm on the property is not...unless a correct sign is posted.

One requires a particular sign and one does not require a sign of any kind.

[Guest jwb68]

You are comparing apples to roof shingles.

Stealing from your property is a crime.

Bringing a firearm on the property is not...unless a correct sign is posted.

One requires a particular sign and one does not require a sign of any kind.

My point is there is no such thing as a "Correct Sign" You think you know what "substantially similar" means. You do not. No one does. Even the AG doesnt know what a "correct sign" is. When he was asked a very specific question asking if specific language was required, he quoted the statute back to the Honorable Matthew Hill, State Representative for the 7th Legislative District and said the statute says "substantially similar".

Webster's dictionary has no authority in this situation. All we have is a statute with undefined terms and no case law to enlighten. Since most of us on here would agree that the judiciary is center left (at best) I think it is safe to assume they will cut you no slack on the issue. I hope I am wrong. I suspect I am not.

[Guest jwb68]

You are comparing apples to roof shingles.

Stealing from your property is a crime.

Bringing a firearm on the property is not...unless a correct sign is posted.

I am going to post a sign on my property that says all may enter except those that wear bluejeans. Come wearing blue jeans. I may not get you convicted but I will most surely get you picked up.

[MudBugjr]

I'll just take mine off at the door:p

[Guest rockytop]

I agree that if it has any posting saying no guns, then do not go in. The media is not going to report that the HCP holder had a right to be there because the signage was not worded properly. They are only going to report that an HCP holder viloated the sign saying guns are prohibited. And even if they do report that the wording was not correct, and the person had a right to enter. They are still going to make it look like the person was just causing trouble and looking for a fight, which makes all look bad.

Exactly correct.

[Guest 270win]

Concealment is important in this state with these signs. 500 bucks isn't a bad fine but it is still five hundred out of your pocket. I think i may have seen one sign thrown way up high where you couldn't read it at a restaurant..but wasn't sure. I conceal and keep on rolling. I don't like to attract attention as some wierdo looking up and around at the door for signs and reading.