Properly Posted or Not?

[Guest GoldenBoy]

I have been reading this site for about 6 months now. I have had my HCP for about a month now. I have noticed that members will post on here what restaurants posts, which is a good thing. The thing i have a question about is why does it matter if it is properly posted or not? If they post, to me that means they don't want me and my gun in there so my money wont be in there either. I just feel like if they are posted period, we should not go in there and give them our money at all.

[Daniel]

Some of us do not feel the same.

[BigPoppa]

I have been reading this site for about 6 months now. I have had my HCP for about a month now. I have noticed that members will post on here what restaurants posts, which is a good thing. The thing i have a question about is why does it matter if it is properly posted or not? If they post, to me that means they don't want me and my gun in there so my money wont be in there either. I just feel like if they are posted period, we should not go in there and give them our money at all.

I see your reasoning, that if an establishment is posted with legal verbiage or not, that they are not supportive of the 2A and you won't financially support them.

OTOH, the posting must be specific and legal to be enforeceable, and some HCP carriers feel inclined to carry there anyway when the joint is not legally posted.

[Mariner]

I agree that if it has any posting saying no guns, then do not go in. The media is not going to report that the HCP holder had a right to be there because the signage was not worded properly. They are only going to report that an HCP holder viloated the sign saying guns are prohibited. And even if they do report that the wording was not correct, and the person had a right to enter. They are still going to make it look like the person was just causing trouble and looking for a fight, which makes all look bad.

[guyandarifle]

I agree that if it has any posting saying no guns, then do not go in. The media is not going to report that the HCP holder had a right to be there because the signage was not worded properly. They are only going to report that an HCP holder viloated the sign saying guns are prohibited. And even if they do report that the wording was not correct, and the person had a right to enter. They are still going to make it look like the person was just causing trouble and looking for a fight, which makes all look bad.

As much as I DETEST having to say it I think your portrayal of how the media would handle the issue is dead on. To each his own and I won't preach but yeah, anything (and I mean ANYTHING) that happens in a "posted" establishment (correctly or not) will be set forth negatively against that gun owner in particular and to the best of the media's ability the HCP community as a whole.

[Daniel]

Don't **** up and you won't have to worry about it.

[memphismason]

The way I see it is:

If an owner/manager is smart enough to run their own restaurant, then they are definitely smart enough to know how to research the proper way to post their establishment against HCP holder carrying a firearm into their business. Any posting that is not correct, says to me that the owner/manager understand the sheeple's concerns and the HCP holder's rights, and by displaying an incorrect sign, will set the "soccer mom's" mind at ease, and at the same time legally allow a HCP to continue to carry and spend their money.

Keep concealed, don't drink, and keep on rockin in the free world.

No bubbles, No troubles.

[Daniel]

agreed.

[dralarms]

The way I see it is:

If an owner/manager is smart enough to run their own restaurant, then they are definitely smart enough to know how to research the proper way to post their establishment against HCP holder carrying a firearm into their business. Any posting that is not correct, says to me that the owner/manager understand the sheeple's concerns and the HCP holder's rights, and by displaying an incorrect sign, will set the "soccer mom's" mind at ease, and at the same time legally allow a HCP to continue to carry and spend their money.

Keep concealed, don't drink, and keep on rockin in the free world.

No bubbles, No troubles.

Agreed, and that's why I keep on eating at outbacks. Their sign is not legal and you have to stand inthe foyer (good luck doing that with those good looking ladies holding the door open so you can enter) just to find it.

[JayC]

The way I see it is:

If an owner/manager is smart enough to run their own restaurant, then they are definitely smart enough to know how to research the proper way to post their establishment against HCP holder carrying a firearm into their business. Any posting that is not correct, says to me that the owner/manager understand the sheeple's concerns and the HCP holder's rights, and by displaying an incorrect sign, will set the "soccer mom's" mind at ease, and at the same time legally allow a HCP to continue to carry and spend their money.

Keep concealed, don't drink, and keep on rockin in the free world.

No bubbles, No troubles.

You CLEARLY don't know many people in the restaurant business... Chain restaurants sometimes have somebody on staff to focus on legal requirements... but small businesses which are family owned, generally have no clue about which signs are and aren't required or whether they have to be a special size or what wording is on them.

I can tell you from personal experience, unless some inspector comes by and complains most businesses don't have a clue what is or isn't required.

If your local restaurant is posted, it means 9 times out of 10 (or more often) they don't want you in there with a gun and they just don't even know to check the law to see if the sign they posted is legal or not.

This whole it's business owners being smart, keep the sheeple happy but still allow gun owners to carry is a fairy tale we are telling ourselves... The facts are it's just not the case the vast majority of the time, the business owner thinks the gun and slash sign will prevent everybody from carrying, that is their intent.

Look at it this way, think of how many HCP holders don't even know the law that well? How many times do we hear an instructor for a HCP giving out bad information? And these people paid to sit through 4-6 hours or trainings (or in the case of instructors are being paid for 4-6 hours of training) on hand gun laws in TN, and then are TESTED on the material that was covered.

I'd bet more than 50% of HCP holders could not tell a legally enforceable sign from a sign which isn't... I'd bet 25% of HCP instructors couldn't tell the difference.... And somehow you think a business owner who has little to no interest in HCP bothers to do enough research to come up with a scheme to make his sheeple customers happy but still allow carry in his business? Give me a break... If you really believe that is why most of these businesses are improperly posted, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you cheap.

Now, I'm not saying don't use their ignorance to your advantage and carry in those locations since it's still legal... I'm just saying don't kid yourself that they want you or any other HCP holder carrying a gun in their business and this is their clever way to allow you to do it.

Edited August 28, 2009 by JayC

[Daniel]

Regardless they are not legally posted and I am not legally obligated to oblige them.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

There isn't a word-for-word verbage required for posting. If they say no guns, and you're a mature adult that makes good choices, you'll spend your money elsewhere.

[Daniel]

There is a significantly similiar verbage required.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/firearms-law-faq/21580-tca-39-17-1359-tennessee-prohibition-carry-notice.html

In addition to the sign, notice may also include the international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle. The sign shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, premises or property and shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

PURSUANT TO § 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500).

Edited August 29, 2009 by Daniel

[Daniel]

This isnt it.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Daniel

[memphismason]

You CLEARLY don't know many people in the restaurant business... Chain restaurants sometimes have somebody on staff to focus on legal requirements... but small businesses which are family owned, generally have no clue about which signs are and aren't required or whether they have to be a special size or what wording is on them.

I can tell you from personal experience, unless some inspector comes by and complains most businesses don't have a clue what is or isn't required.

If your local restaurant is posted, it means 9 times out of 10 (or more often) they don't want you in there with a gun and they just don't even know to check the law to see if the sign they posted is legal or not.

This whole it's business owners being smart, keep the sheeple happy but still allow gun owners to carry is a fairy tale we are telling ourselves... The facts are it's just not the case the vast majority of the time, the business owner thinks the gun and slash sign will prevent everybody from carrying, that is their intent.

Look at it this way, think of how many HCP holders don't even know the law that well? How many times do we hear an instructor for a HCP giving out bad information? And these people paid to sit through 4-6 hours or trainings (or in the case of instructors are being paid for 4-6 hours of training) on hand gun laws in TN, and then are TESTED on the material that was covered.

I'd bet more than 50% of HCP holders could not tell a legally enforceable sign from a sign which isn't... I'd bet 25% of HCP instructors couldn't tell the difference.... And somehow you think a business owner who has little to no interest in HCP bothers to do enough research to come up with a scheme to make his sheeple customers happy but still allow carry in his business? Give me a break... If you really believe that is why most of these businesses are improperly posted, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you cheap.

Now, I'm not saying don't use their ignorance to your advantage and carry in those locations since it's still legal... I'm just saying don't kid yourself that they want you or any other HCP holder carrying a gun in their business and this is their clever way to allow you to do it.

My response is full of sarcasm. Learn to read between the lines. But since you can't let me dumb it down for you.

If the onwer/operator makes the choice to remain ignorant to the laws that affect his business, then so mote it be.

If it aint legally posted, then I am carrying.

There isn't a word-for-word verbage required for posting. If they say no guns, and you're a mature adult that makes good choices, you'll spend your money elsewhere.

Uh yes it is.

39-17-1359. Prohibition at certain meetings — Posting notice. —

(a) An individual, corporation, business entity or local, state or federal government entity or agent thereof is authorized to prohibit the possession of weapons by any person otherwise authorized by §§ 39-17-1351 — 39-17-1360, at meetings conducted by, or on property owned, operated, or managed or under the control of the individual, corporation, business entity or government entity. Notice of the prohibition shall be posted. Posted notices shall be displayed in prominent locations, including all entrances primarily used by persons entering the building, portion of the building or buildings where weapon possession is prohibited. If the possession of weapons is also prohibited on the premises of the property as well as within the confines of a building located on the property, the notice shall be posted at all entrances to the premises that are primarily used by persons entering the property. The notice shall be in English but a notice may also be posted in any language used by patrons, customers or persons who frequent the place where weapon possession is prohibited. In addition to the sign, notice may also include the international circle and slash symbolizing the prohibition of the item within the circle. The sign shall be of a size that is plainly visible to the average person entering the building, premises or property and shall contain language substantially similar to the following:

PURSUANT TO § 39-17-1359, THE OWNER/OPERATOR OF THIS PROPERTY HAS BANNED WEAPONS ON THIS PROPERTY, OR WITHIN THIS BUILDING OR THIS PORTION OF THIS BUILDING. FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THIS PROHIBITION IS PUNISHABLE AS A CRIMINAL ACT UNDER STATE LAW AND MAY SUBJECT THE VIOLATOR TO A FINE OF NOT MORE THAN FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($500).

( Nothing in this section shall be construed to alter, reduce or eliminate any civil or criminal liability that a property owner or manager may have for injuries arising on their property.

© Any posted notice being used by a local, state or federal governmental entity on July 1, 2000, that is in substantial compliance with the provisions of subsection (a) of this section may continue to be used by the governmental entity.

(d) The provisions of this section shall not apply to title 70 regarding wildlife laws, rules and regulations.

[Acts 1996, ch. 905, § 11; 2000, ch. 929, § 1.]

Edited August 28, 2009 by memphismason

[Guest PapaB]

Having been the assistant manager of a family restaurant (in another state) for 1.5 years followed by 2.5 years as the general manager I have to agree with JayC's comments.

from memphismason:

"If the onwer/operator makes the choice to remain ignorant to the laws that affect his business, then so mote it be."

Why do you assume they have any knowledge of the fact that there's specific signage to follow? They'll be told they can post a sign if they don't want guns. Many may wrongly believe that the signs available for sale are all legal. Why sell signs that aren't? Proof of point is the illegal signs given to restaurants by the Restaurant association around Nashville. When the association fighting the law is ignorant of the signage issue I wouldn't expect its members to know.

[Fallguy]

I have to agree in that I have never really thought an improper sign was to appease the sheeple but still allow legal carry.

That being said, what I judge as a sign not complying with 39-17-1359 will not stop me from entering a place if need/want to.

As why I may enter a restaurant or other business with an improper sign, there are many reasons. There may not be an alternative choice for what you want or need to do. You may be with others that have made the choice of the location and don't want to disrupt the plans. You may really enjoy the food there and want to eat there regardless of what their views on carry rights are.

[memphismason]

Having been the assistant manager of a family restaurant (in another state) for 1.5 years followed by 2.5 years as the general manager I have to agree with JayC's comments.

from memphismason:

"If the onwer/operator makes the choice to remain ignorant to the laws that affect his business, then so mote it be."

Why do you assume they have any knowledge of the fact that there's specific signage to follow? They'll be told they can post a sign if they don't want guns. Many may wrongly believe that the signs available for sale are all legal. Why sell signs that aren't? Proof of point is the illegal signs given to restaurants by the Restaurant association around Nashville. When the association fighting the law is ignorant of the signage issue I wouldn't expect its members to know.

"Why do you assume they have any knowledge of the fact that there's specific signage to follow?"

Why would they not know?

Many may wrongly believe that the signs available for sale are all legal.

Their ignorance is my gain.

[Guest clownsdd]

Short and simple.

The decision to carry into an establishment not properly posted, as well as the decision not to patronize a business with any "no guns" sign, legal or not is a personal decision, just as the debate about open vs concealed carry.

We, being the freedom loving Volunteers we are, tend to be a little hard headed in our opinions. Not a bad thing. You can debate and post and cite law all you want. It seems the majority on here (myself included) have their minds made up based on their principles, as long as it's lawful.

That is not a bad thing, at least we know where each other stands, respect their views, and are willing to fight for their right to have an opposite opinion.

We just don't need to debate this every time the question arises. Put your opinion and let it go, cause you ain't gonna change an "old timers" mind.

Sorry for the rant.

[Guest PapaB]

""Why do you assume they have any knowledge of the fact that there's specific signage to follow?"

Why would they not know?"

As stated in my next line: "They'll be told they can post a sign if they don't want guns."

They aren't neccesarily told more than that.

As JayC said, "Look at it this way, think of how many HCP holders don't even know the law that well? How many times do we hear an instructor for a HCP giving out bad information?"

Many may wrongly believe that the signs available for sale are all legal.

Their ignorance is my gain.

I agree. I don't argue that each of us should or shouldn't make a particular choice, I'll support each person whichever choice is right for them on this subject. I do, however, reserve the right to add my when I have an opinion and I appreciate that you add yours as well. I think we all benefit from a good discourse.

[memphismason]

""Why do you assume they have any knowledge of the fact that there's specific signage to follow?"

Why would they not know?"

As stated in my next line: "They'll be told they can post a sign if they don't want guns."

They aren't neccesarily told more than that.

As JayC said, "Look at it this way, think of how many HCP holders don't even know the law that well? How many times do we hear an instructor for a HCP giving out bad information?"

Many may wrongly believe that the signs available for sale are all legal.

Their ignorance is my gain.

I agree. I don't argue that each of us should or shouldn't make a particular choice, I'll support each person whichever choice is right for them on this subject. I do, however, reserve the right to add my when I have an opinion and I appreciate that you add yours as well. I think we all benefit from a good discourse.

Yes sir, I think we all benefit from a good debate.

I think there is a lot of bad information going around, and shame on everyone (restaurant owners and HCP holders) for not learning the correct laws.

I will add that if I ever get "made" carrying at one of these restaurants that has not properly posted, I will comply with their request, inform them that the reason I carried was that they were improperly posted, and I will never visit the establishment again. If they ask "Well what is proper posting", I will say "Its in the TN Code".

I am on their property and I will give them the utmost respect. I will offer to them that I am willing to go out to my vehicle, disarm, return finish my meal, pay the tab, and never return, and encourage all my HCP friends to never frequent their establishment, and that their restaurant's name and location will be entered into a database on line for all to see which restaurants ban legal carrying of firearms.

I will not inform them of the law, nor tell them how to find it, that is up to them, not me.

However, I am very cautious and aware when I carry and don't think this will ever happen.

But to each his own.

[Guest Bill Lumberg]

Correct cosmos. If carrying illegally or pretending not to undersrtand signage is your plan A, you'll need a good plan B.

There isn't a word-for-word verbage required for posting. If they say no guns, and you're a mature adult that makes good choices, you'll spend your money elsewhere.

[Guest beefcakeb0]

people kill me.... ignorance is not an excuse for the law, everybody should know that..... IGNORANCE IS NOT AN EXCUSE!!! you cant tell a judge "i didnt know there waas a speed limit" it is nobodys responsibillity to inform you of the law, even if you are a dip**** business owner/ operator. if somebody tells you that you can put up a sign, you just going to trust em and put a sign up without looking the law that says so? if you do then you have less sense than an aardvark! if they post a noncompliant sign, you decide whether you patronize them or not, there is a song that this reminds me of....... Dumb all over, Frank Zappa

personally, i will more than likely not oblige their stupidity, because i am usually with a group, that in the emergency case i would definately want to defend, but if i am alone, and drive by and see the signage proper, i will keep on going to the next best thing.

Edited August 28, 2009 by beefcakeb0

[memphismason]

Correct cosmos. If carrying illegally or pretending not to undersrtand signage is your plan A, you'll need a good plan B.

So I should just do what every sign say, just because?

Edited August 28, 2009 by memphismason

[Guest beefcakeb0]

hahaha +1 if there was rep u would get 1 from me