No HCP on personal property?

[saintsfanbrian]

And again, part of having a permit you have stated that you agree to the fact that in the official course of his duties if an LEO asks you for it you WILL present it.

P.S. I wasn't leo bashing.

[tntnixon]

Easy guys we all no LEOs never do anything wrong. Enough of this cop bashing. TGO david might close this thread.

I'm actually not cop bashing. I know that most cops are good people trying to do their jobs in a responsible manner. I do, however, have a difficulty with the amount of crontrol and power that we have reliquished to them. In many ways we have become a police state. The second ammendment was intended to keep the government and the people on equal footing, to prevent just the sort of thing described in my scenario. It wasn't necessarily intended for us to protect ourselves against each other. It was intended for us to protect ourselves against the government and it's entities. Our founding fathers would have assumed that our rights to protect our lives and properties would not have to be spelled out. They were concerned about government. Oh, how the times have changed.

[guyandarifle]

We really don't. See above post.

See above post.

Not sure I actually saw an "answer" to my query. If you are carrying in a place and fashion that doesn't require ANYONE to have a permit why would I (or indeed anyone) even bother feeling the need to have their permit with them? (much less have an officer ask to produce one if you did)

[TNTitan]

Not sure I actually saw an "answer" to my query. If you are carrying in a place and fashion that doesn't require ANYONE to have a permit why would I (or indeed anyone) even bother feeling the need to have their permit with them? (much less have an officer ask to produce one if you did)

Why would you bother? Because TN code says you should. Once you get a HCP the law states you must carry it with you at all times while packing. Whether others would need one or not.

[Guest jth_3s]

I'm actually not cop bashing. I know that most cops are good people trying to do their jobs in a responsible manner. I do, however, have a difficulty with the amount of crontrol and power that we have reliquished to them. In many ways we have become a police state. The second ammendment was intended to keep the government and the people on equal footing, to prevent just the sort of thing described in my scenario. It wasn't necessarily intended for us to protect ourselves against each other. It was intended for us to protect ourselves against the government and it's entities. Our founding fathers would have assumed that our rights to protect our lives and properties would not have to be spelled out. They were concerned about government. Oh, how the times have changed.

I agree with you 100% I was warning you he seems to think anytime you talk about bad police officers you are a cop basher. I posted a Link from News Channel 5 about a few bad police officers and didnt even post any comments in the thread. David called it cop bashing and closed it.

[Fallguy]

Not sure I actually saw an "answer" to my query. If you are carrying in a place and fashion that doesn't require ANYONE to have a permit why would I (or indeed anyone) even bother feeling the need to have their permit with them? (much less have an officer ask to produce one if you did)

You don't have to produce a HCP if you are carrying in a situation that doesn't require one.

My point was that you may have to prove you are in a situation where your carry of a firearm is legal, since the carry of fiream is generally illegal.

You may have to prove you are on your property or that you are hunting or any of the other defenses in 39-17-1308.

[guyandarifle]

You don't have to produce a HCP if you are carrying in a situation that doesn't require one.

My point was that you may have to prove you are in a situation where your carry of a firearm is legal, since the carry of fiream is generally illegal.

You may have to prove you are on your property or that you are hunting or any of the other defenses in 39-17-1308.

Appreciate the clarification.

[Guest Ravendove]

I agree with you 100% I was warning you he seems to think anytime you talk about bad police officers you are a cop basher. I posted a Link from News Channel 5 about a few bad police officers and didnt even post any comments in the thread. David called it cop bashing and closed it.

I remember that. I almost stopped coming here entirely because of it. I don't think we should ignore problems caused by some people just to avoid offending others. The point was never that the entire group was bad, just that one guy and a handful of others.

Back to the subject of the thread, I can see where you're coming from with not wanting to produce papers every five minutes, JustMe, and I agree with you on that. I don't think that's the issue being discussed, though. It would get aggravating if I got stopped and questioned every time I left my house. But, once in a while, I think it's ok just to ensure the safety of the general public.

That said, the guy walking around with a firearm secure in a holster, going about his business, and not bothering anyone is not who I feel anyone, least of all police, should really be concerned about. It just seems sensible to assume that he's not up to no good and there's no reason to interrupt his day.

[JayC]

Well depending on the handgun you're carrying while hunting on your own land, yes you would be required to have your HCP with you and present it if requested.

Yes, the way the current law is worded, it's a silly loophole, and we should work to remove it in the next session, since it places a burden on HCP holders which is not placed on everybody else exercising the same right under the law.

Unless I missed it I'm not sure if this was addressed specifically.

If you are carrying where a permit is NOT required to carry why would you even need to have, much less be required to present, your permit? For instance, if I'm sitting in my deer stand (let's make it on my property as well) during legal hours in season I'm not one jot more than thousands of other hunters waiting on a deer. But the argument seems to be that not only would I be required to have my carry permit with me but be required to produce it.

If that's actually the case the word "stupid" seems woefully inadequate.

[JayC]

We really don't. See above post.

I disagree Fallguy, we have to carry and provide a HCP on request... While everybody else just has to prove in anyway they are on their own property...

While a non-permit holder could show a drivers license, or just make the statement that this is their house... If you have a permit you must provide it upon request even if a HCP is not required for carry in that location.

It's not a HUGE deal, but the law is poorly worded... and I agree, instead of having both home/business carry and HCP carry listed as defenses we should work to have them made exceptions to the law. And that is the right way to get this changed imho.

[Fallguy]

I disagree Fallguy, we have to carry and provide a HCP on request... While everybody else just has to prove in anyway they are on their own property...

While a non-permit holder could show a drivers license, or just make the statement that this is their house... If you have a permit you must provide it upon request even if a HCP is not required for carry in that location.

It's not a HUGE deal, but the law is poorly worded... and I agree, instead of having both home/business carry and HCP carry listed as defenses we should work to have them made exceptions to the law. And that is the right way to get this changed imho.

Agree.

Just meant that even though we do have to show our HCP, even those without a HCP may have to show something to prove they are legal.

As far as the laws go, if you look a large part of the Weapons laws (Title 39, Chapter 17, part 13) were created by public chapter 591 in 1989. It almost appears a near complete redoing was done shortly after the HCP law went into effect. I agree a lot has changed over the last 20 years and it is about time for another reworking.

Would like to have known what the weapons laws were prior to that....

[Guest justme]

Again, why should we have to prove we are on our property? The police cannot simply come onto your property and demand anything. They have to have a lawful reason to be on your property to begin with...otherwise they are breaking the law.

As I understand it--a person does not have to "prove" anything to the police--the burden of proof lies with the state to prove that we are not on our property...

this is why you simply don't talk to the police, or if you do--what you say is measured and reserved.

[Fallguy]

Again, why should we have to prove we are on our property? The police cannot simply come onto your property and demand anything. They have to have a lawful reason to be on your property to begin with...otherwise they are breaking the law.

As I understand it--a person does not have to "prove" anything to the police--the burden of proof lies with the state to prove that we are not on our property...

this is why you simply don't talk to the police, or if you do--what you say is measured and reserved.

You aren't so much proving you are on your property as you are providing a defense to the illegal carry of firearm.

If you are just sitting in your yard watching the traffic go by, I agree a LEO has no business on your property and/or asking you to prove it is your property.

But just like with the LEO and the Harvard professor, if he has reason to believe a crime may be being committed (in this case the illegal carry of a weapon) he can investigate that matter.

...and you may be right about not having to prove it to the LEO, but if you don't or can't you will probably be proving it to the judge at a later date.

[Guest jth_3s]

You aren't so much proving you are on your property as you are providing a defense to the illegal carry of firearm.

Is there anything Illegal about carrying a firearm on private property not owned by a government or opened to the public? I thought PRIVATE property was exempt from state law restricting carry.

[Guest justme]

You aren't so much proving you are on your property as you are providing a defense to the illegal carry of firearm.

If you are just sitting in your yard watching the traffic go by, I agree a LEO has no business on your property and/or asking you to prove it is your property.

But just like with the LEO and the Harvard professor, if he has reason to believe a crime may be being committed (in this case the illegal carry of a weapon) he can investigate that matter.

...and you may be right about not having to prove it to the LEO, but if you don't or can't you will probably be proving it to the judge at a later date.

then let us quit any semblance of a "free" country and demand the Stars and stripes be pulled down and replaced with the flag of the USSR and let's just get on with the "your papers please" and checkpoints and everything else...

if they come onto your property without a legal, justifiable reason they are trespassing. If they come on with you mowing your yard and point a gun at you, harass you, assault you--they can be arrested. Trespassing applies just as much LE as it does to anyone else, as does assault.

The law does not require us to prove we own our property when we are on it. If they arrest you because you refuse to cooperate--sue. you are under no obligation to answer any questions. Anyone can always use the extra money that would come from a false arrest lawsuit...not to mention the extra, negative attention the audio and video would garner on youtube for the LE involved....

As for the professor--I would just love to see him sue the city police.

[Guest justme]

Is there anything Illegal about carrying a firearm on private property not owned by a government or opened to the public? I thought PRIVATE property was exempt from state law restricting carry.

this is why everyone should put up NO TRESPASSING signs on their property...

[Guest justme]

I disagree Fallguy, we have to carry and provide a HCP on request... While everybody else just has to prove in anyway they are on their own property...

While a non-permit holder could show a drivers license, or just make the statement that this is their house... If you have a permit you must provide it upon request even if a HCP is not required for carry in that location.

It's not a HUGE deal, but the law is poorly worded... and I agree, instead of having both home/business carry and HCP carry listed as defenses we should work to have them made exceptions to the law. And that is the right way to get this changed imho.

We should be working to have possession of firearms decriminalized period--just like Alaska and Arizona...Alaska for OC and CC, Arizona for carry of the EBRs...

[Punisher84]

Easy guys we all no LEOs never do anything wrong. Enough of this cop bashing. TGO david might close this thread.

I remember that. I almost stopped coming here entirely because of it. I don't think we should ignore problems caused by some people just to avoid offending others. The point was never that the entire group was bad, just that one guy and a handful of others.

You know if you don't like it here there is a "civil society" you could go visit. I'm sure that assclown would love to have you both.

This isn't a free country on this site, like it or not, David can do what he wants and I agree with him, this **** gets old. This thread had very little to do with cops, but you guys always manage to turn it into a cop bashing party.

I'd personally love to see ya both get beat to oblivion with the ban hammer.

[Fallguy]

You aren't so much proving you are on your property as you are providing a defense to the illegal carry of firearm.

Is there anything Illegal about carrying a firearm on private property not owned by a government or opened to the public? I thought PRIVATE property was exempt from state law restricting carry.

No, state laws still apply on private property.

Carrying a firearm on private property is a defense to an illegal activity, not legal by itself.

[JayC]

You aren't so much proving you are on your property as you are providing a defense to the illegal carry of firearm.

Is there anything Illegal about carrying a firearm on private property not owned by a government or opened to the public? I thought PRIVATE property was exempt from state law restricting carry.

Carrying of a firearm with the intent to go armed is illegal in all cases in TN, BUT state law allows a number of 'defenses' to said carry, one being for hunting, another being on your property or business, and a third example being the HCP.

All of these defenses have their own set of requirements....

So, is it illegal, technically YES, but you have a legal defense to the violation if you're on your property.

A number of us comment a lot that instead of these carry being defenses, they should be exceptions to the violation. Which would mean that the burden would be placed on the state not on us to prove said defense. (To a police officer or judge)

[JayC]

We should be working to have possession of firearms decriminalized period--just like Alaska and Arizona...Alaska for OC and CC, Arizona for carry of the EBRs...

You won't hear me disagree that passing a law that states if you can legally own it you can legally carry it anywhere.

But, I seriously doubt we can get that passed in this state anytime soon.

[Guest jth_3s]

You know if you don't like it here there is a "civil society" you could go visit. I'm sure that assclown would love to have you both.

This isn't a free country on this site, like it or not, David can do what he wants and I agree with him, this **** gets old. This thread had very little to do with cops, but you guys always manage to turn it into a cop bashing party.

I'd personally love to see ya both get beat to oblivion with the ban hammer.

I never said anything bad about LEO and I wasnt making this a cop bashing I was just warning him of a past experience I had on this site so he wouldnt make the same mistake. Nobody has to ban me I can see this site doesnt welcome my idealogy. Im off to find a more liberty minded site concerned about the 2nd amendment as well as the other 9 amendments in the bill of rights.

[Fallguy]

Carrying of a firearm with the intent to go armed is illegal in all cases in TN, BUT state law allows a number of 'defenses' to said carry, one being for hunting, another being on your property or business, and a third example being the HCP.

All of these defenses have their own set of requirements....

So, is it illegal, technically YES, but you have a legal defense to the violation if you're on your property.

A number of us comment a lot that instead of these carry being defenses, they should be exceptions to the violation. Which would mean that the burden would be placed on the state not on us to prove said defense. (To a police officer or judge)

I agree.

I also acknowledge that LEOs are generally confronting everyone they see armed on private property and demanding they poduce a HCP and/or proof of it being their residence.

But as you said, I just don't think the law should say simply possesing a firearm is a violation of the law and that you have to prove that you fall into one of the defense to the law situations.

[DaveTN]

I never said anything bad about LEO and I wasnt making this a cop bashing I was just warning him of a past experience I had on this site so he wouldnt make the same mistake. Nobody has to ban me I can see this site doesnt welcome my idealogy. Im off to find a more liberty minded site concerned about the 2nd amendment as well as the other 9 amendments in the bill of rights.

I love a good legal discussion. Whether it be gun laws, search and seizure, vehicle stops, probable cause, DUI… whatever.

Your ideology is as welcome here as anyone else’s.

But some people get all emotional on the hot topics and the bizarre statements, outright lies, and name calling comes into play.

In law, we discuss the way things are; not the way they should be. We don’t have a justice system, we have a legal system. Cops make mistakes just like everyone else. And when they do there is always recourse. Knowledge is key and there are plenty of people here that have real life experience that may help some of those that want to know what to do or what the laws are in a certain situation.

If you are just looking for a pat on the back when you say you have 2nd amendment rights there are plenty of websites for that. You will find many here that will do that for you. On the other hand there are many that are in check with reality and will disagree.

No point in leaving if you can carry on a normal discussion without attacking the other person or reducing the discussion to name calling. Which it seems is always the way the threads involving what cops can and can’t do end.

[Guest Ravendove]

It seems my statement was taken out of context and my position misunderstood. I'm not planning on furthering a discussion belittling or insulting anyone. I'm certainly not claiming anyone here isn't human and therefor not subject to the same flaws as the rest of us. I'm also not here to start trouble, name call, or get praise. I'm here for information and that's all. And as you may have seen, I said my peace and returned to the subject this thread is about.

And since this isn't the thread for this discussion, I won't be saying anymore about it, regardless of whether anyone wants to respond to these statements. If you want to discuss this further, I don't mind having a conversation through PM. Otherwise, I'll be staying on topic from here on out.