No HCP on personal property?

[Guest justme]

Actually, as an HCP holder you ARE required to show it regardless of where you are or if you are carrying it or not if a Law Enforcement Officer asks for it.

That's in the law. so is this

So even if you are inside your home, the officer can disarm you.

The points to be made about this is :(1) the officer cannot simply walk onto your property and disarm you unless they are on a call--that is called trespassing (2) section (t) Any law enforcement officer of this state or of any county or municipality may, within the realm of the officer's lawful jurisdiction and when the officer is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties, disarm a permit holder at any time when the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the permit holder, officer or other individual or individuals

which means--and yet it isn't enforced--that the officer has to have a reasonable belief that disarming you is necessary-which means simply walking up and saying "officer safety" is not what was intended by this provision...now as a society in TN, we are simply accustomed to giving in and letting the disarm happen--but that is not the way the law is written or intended.

[Guest justme]

A "loophole"? For who?

I really don't see it as an issue.

Either you have one or you don't, what's the big deal either way as long as you're carrying legally either way?

- OS

Because it's your property...

[Guest justme]

So one might say the LEO is asking for the HCP as identification to make sure that is your residence.

So we should have to prove that we are in our own business, or on your own property then? Why should we have to prove that we are on our individual property in order to exercise a right guaranteed under both the Constitutions of the state of Tennessee, as well as that of the United States?

How far we have come as a society--we've lost the very root and essence of what it means to be free.

Edited August 28, 2009 by justme

[Guest justme]

I think it is sad that Tennesseans have to purchase their rights. Kind of makes me want to move to Arizona where they dont even require a permit to carry an EBR to the grocery store.

I would love to see the day TN. is like Alaska and Arizona--Alaska requires no permit to even carry concealed, nor do they require one to carry openly. Arizona lets you have those EBRs in public--why can't Tennessee be more civilized.....

[tntnixon]

I've always found it interesting that a LEO can come onto my property(not in my house without a warant) while I'm mowing my lawn. He can have his sidearm drawn and point it at me but I'm not supposed to consider it a threat to my life and have no right to self-defense. In this scenario, I'm supposed to hand him my weapon and my HCP and assume that all is right with the world. The truth is there have been more unjustified homocides commited by LEO's, over the years, than by HCP holders.

[saintsfanbrian]

If you are mowing your lawn and a police officer comes on your property with his gun drawn and pointed at your head then there is likely a reason for it. You did something or someone used your identity and did something or someone matching your description did something and as soon as they verify that "you aren't the droid" they are looking for all WILL be right with the world. If the officer is unprofessional in any way you have the right to file grievances with the department. As long as everyone acts right then no one will get hurt, which, at the end of the day, is what EVERYONE wants.

If you live in an area where police officers frequently come on your property while you are mowing the lawn and point guns at your head then I would suggest moving.

[dariks]

I've always found it interesting that a LEO can come onto my property(not in my house without a warant) while I'm mowing my lawn. He can have his sidearm drawn and point it at me but I'm not supposed to consider it a threat to my life and have no right to self-defense. In this scenario, I'm supposed to hand him my weapon and my HCP and assume that all is right with the world. The truth is there have been more unjustified homocides commited by LEO's, over the years, than by HCP holders.

[saintsfanbrian]

The truth is there have been more unjustified homocides commited by LEO's, over the years, than by HCP holders.

So are we saying that cops are going out and killing homosexuals for no reason?

[tntnixon]

[lbo-talk] Former BART officer charged with murder in New Year's killing

Memphis police officer charged with murder

Woman (Pentagon Police Officer) charged with attempted murder

CITY PC CHARGED WITH BAR MURDER ; Police officer in court accused over dancefloor attack on barrister's clerk | Article from Evening Standard - London | HighBeam Research

Police Officer Charged with Murder of Missing Ohio Woman - Associated Content

Atlanta Police Officer Charged With Murder, Assault - 11Alive.com | WXIA | Atlanta, GA

Obviously you haven't seen any of these. I could have put many, many more on here but I think I proved my point.

I also remember being a teenager walking down the road one afternoon. A LEO pulled over, threw me to the ground, frisked me and took the $20.00 I had in my wallet. That was a little over 20 years ago, but the memory is still fresh. And no, I didn't look like a perp. However, I did look vulnerable (who's going to believe a 16 year old kid). My only crime was walking down the road.

As a "Saints" fan you probably also know that the NOPD has notoriously been a lawless group committing murder after murder.

[tntnixon]

How many more citations do I need to put on here? I can go all day.

[B18hybridhatch]

I actually got into a argument with neighbor about this the other day, I was weedeatin my yard inside our fenced in front yard and had my lcp iwb 5 oclock position. Well I bent over to pick somethin up and apparently my shirt caught on the handle I didnt notice it but he did. He walkes to the edge of his yard and starts yellin at me sayin im not allowed to carry a gun out in the open that I must think im a big man with a gun on my side and to not accidentally shoot his gfs son and all this buddies sittin on the front porch.

I walked over to my fence and simply told him he didnt know he was talkin about that i could legally carry my weapon on my own property open or concealed, and not to worrie that I had no intentions of randomly fireing in there direction or firein it at all unless a situation arose that called for that type of action. He says yea well we'll see what the cops have to say about that cuz i already called them. They get there (including a cop that i know and has already talked to me about carryin in my yard) they came up and asked me and my family what was goin on and i explained the situation while the other 2 talked to some surrounding neighbors and to the guy.

Apparently he called and told them I was waiveing it around in my front yard which they didnt beleive since the other ppl that live around us were out side the entire time and told them what had happened.

So... they gave him a real good chewin about callin in a false police report and told him I could carry my weapon any where on my property or in my neighbors property with their concent and there was nothin he could about it. They even told him he wasnt very smart startin trouble with a man knowing he was carryin a loaded weapon about him carrying his weapon. They said if he gave us anymore trouble or came onto our proplerty to just call them and he would be goin to jail for tresspassing, disorderly conduct, and disturbing the peace.

[LagerHead]

+1 for the cops in McMinville.

[Guest The Highlander]

Thank God that where I live, the only thing the cop would say is "nice Glock, what caliber is it?"

[B18hybridhatch]

lol thats pretty much what happen the first time i was out there, the cop that usually patrols our area drove by and seen my with it so he stopped and just started talkin to me about it. Ive been carryin both my lcp and my P94dc 40cal when Im outside now. They are both really comfortable to carry i just have to carry the P94 obw in my fobus, and my lcp iwb in a uncle mikes. Everytime there outside all i get is dirty looks and him starin at my guns.

[Guest Ravendove]

So we should have to prove that we are in our own business, or on your own property then? Why should we have to prove that we are on our individual property in order to exercise a right guaranteed under both the Constitutions of the state of Tennessee, as well as that of the United States?

How far we have come as a society--we've lost the very root and essence of what it means to be free.

Personally, I'd be happy if a police officer did check to see if I belonged to that property. If someone with a gun was on my property and didn't belong there, I think I would want the police to feel free to remove him. I'm not saying I'd be relying on them to do so, just that if they happened to see it that they wouldn't feel begrudged to do something about it.

I agree with you about wishing TN would follow suit with AZ. So long as I'm not hurting anyone, I think it would be nice to have the option of walking around with a rifle or carbine of some sort. Obviously I wouldn't make it an every day thing, but once in a while it would be fun to get some sun with my long gun.

[Guest justme]

I've always found it interesting that a LEO can come onto my property(not in my house without a warant) while I'm mowing my lawn. He can have his sidearm drawn and point it at me but I'm not supposed to consider it a threat to my life and have no right to self-defense. In this scenario, I'm supposed to hand him my weapon and my HCP and assume that all is right with the world. The truth is there have been more unjustified homocides commited by LEO's, over the years, than by HCP holders.

That is the time you go down to the sheriffs office/highway patrol and file charges of assault against the officer. Be sure you have witnesses--it helps, and if you have one of those simple little security cameras or two on your property that you can attach to your pc and point them at your yard--video is great--video with audio is wonderful.

They cannot simply come onto your property without a legal, justifiable reason and point a gun at you--there is a law against that.

Edited August 28, 2009 by justme

[saintsfanbrian]

Yes, there are bad police officers out there. Just as there are bad doctors, lawyers, computer techs, etc. It's part of human nature. Yes power corrupts.

If a police officer comes on your property and points a gun at you for no reason file charges. Otherwise just go about your business and be situationally aware. I can't think of a time a police officer would come on my property that I wouldn't know about it before I had a gun pointed at my head.

[Guest justme]

Personally, I'd be happy if a police officer did check to see if I belonged to that property. If someone with a gun was on my property and didn't belong there, I think I would want the police to feel free to remove him. I'm not saying I'd be relying on them to do so, just that if they happened to see it that they wouldn't feel begrudged to do something about it.

I agree with you about wishing TN would follow suit with AZ. So long as I'm not hurting anyone, I think it would be nice to have the option of walking around with a rifle or carbine of some sort. Obviously I wouldn't make it an every day thing, but once in a while it would be fun to get some sun with my long gun.

I understand why you would be happy if they checked--but do you want to be asked for your papers every time you turn around? What if you simply were mowing the yard--officer comes up--your papers please, I need you to prove to me you own this property? What if they demanded you prove that you own your gun?

We should not have to prove anything when we are on our property. I do not want a society where my papers are demanded of me just to be in my yard with a gun on my hip--if I wanted my papers demanded, I'd move to China, or North Korea.

This is America--and as a society we are becoming more and more accustomed to having our papers demanded of us, having our Constitution eroded away and our rights abrogated in the name of state security...I wonder what our founding fathers would think of how far we have fallen?

[Guest justme]

Yes, there are bad police officers out there. Just as there are bad doctors, lawyers, computer techs, etc. It's part of human nature. Yes power corrupts.

If a police officer comes on your property and points a gun at you for no reason file charges. Otherwise just go about your business and be situationally aware. I can't think of a time a police officer would come on my property that I wouldn't know about it before I had a gun pointed at my head.

I agree with everything you have said.

[Guest jth_3s]

Easy guys we all no LEOs never do anything wrong. Enough of this cop bashing. TGO david might close this thread.

[JayC]

You know....come to think of it, as you said in another thread, possession of a loaded weapon is illegal in TN, period, actually even on your property. Being on your property is just a defense like having a HCP is a defense.

So one might say the LEO is asking for the HCP as identification to make sure that is your residence.

While that maybe the intent of the officer... It can be accomplished in several other ways. I'll note that for a non-HCP holder they're not required to 'prove' their residence.

I'm all for having to provide the HCP upon request when we're otherwise not allowed to carry under the law. But we shouldn't have any more requirements in our homes and businesses than any other regular citizen.

[guyandarifle]

Unless I missed it I'm not sure if this was addressed specifically.

If you are carrying where a permit is NOT required to carry why would you even need to have, much less be required to present, your permit? For instance, if I'm sitting in my deer stand (let's make it on my property as well) during legal hours in season I'm not one jot more than thousands of other hunters waiting on a deer. But the argument seems to be that not only would I be required to have my carry permit with me but be required to produce it.

If that's actually the case the word "stupid" seems woefully inadequate.

[Fallguy]

So we should have to prove that we are in our own business, or on your own property then? Why should we have to prove that we are on our individual property in order to exercise a right guaranteed under both the Constitutions of the state of Tennessee, as well as that of the United States?

How far we have come as a society--we've lost the very root and essence of what it means to be free.

I don't think it is right myself, I'm just saying it is the way the law is written.

39-17-1307 says "A person commits an offense who carries with the intent to go armed a firearm, a knife with a blade length exceeding four inches (4"), or a club" So it is illegal to carry a firearm, period, in TN. No two ways around it.

There are defenses to the above provided in 39-17-1308, some of which are if the firearm is unloaded, if you have a HCP, if you are at your residence, business or premises. But they are just that, defenses, you are breaking the law, but if you can defend you action by proving one of the defenses in 39-17-1308 apply to you at the time, you are ok. Most of the time it is good enough to prove that to the LEO, but it could also be required to prove it in court.

Now if the being on your property was an exception and not a defense it would be different. A LEO would need some PC to think a law was broken. But as the law is, even on your own property, if you are out in your yard armed or even in your house, as far as the LEO knows, you are breaking the law, unless you can defend yourself by showing you are on your own property.

Do all require "papers" or the showing of ID to determine this? No, of course not, especially if the know you. But again, they could the way the law is written.

So this is the reason why in public (or at home I guess) you must show your HCP (if you have one) to an officer if asked, because again as far as he knows you are breaking the law by being armed and you must prove that you aren't.

Edited August 28, 2009 by Fallguy

[Fallguy]

While that maybe the intent of the officer... It can be accomplished in several other ways. I'll note that for a non-HCP holder they're not required to 'prove' their residence.

I'm all for having to provide the HCP upon request when we're otherwise not allowed to carry under the law. But we shouldn't have any more requirements in our homes and businesses than any other regular citizen.

We really don't. See above post.

Unless I missed it I'm not sure if this was addressed specifically.

If you are carrying where a permit is NOT required to carry why would you even need to have, much less be required to present, your permit? For instance, if I'm sitting in my deer stand (let's make it on my property as well) during legal hours in season I'm not one jot more than thousands of other hunters waiting on a deer. But the argument seems to be that not only would I be required to have my carry permit with me but be required to produce it.

If that's actually the case the word "stupid" seems woefully inadequate.

See above post.

[BigPoppa]

Easy guys we all no LEOs never do anything wrong. Enough of this cop bashing. TGO david might close this thread.

Never mind.

Edited August 28, 2009 by BigPoppa