Shelby Co. TFA meeting: Let's beat up on the OC guy!

[Guest TN_Mike]

Your trainer wasn't the girl that just shot the recruit was she? If so I guess I'd be skittish too lol

:lol::lol:

[JayC]

If the officer asks you to disarm, you are in violation of the law to withhold your BUG. That could be the end of your carry days.

I'm not sure that is right... The law says you have to show the officer your permit, and allow the officer to disarm you, it does not say you must disclose if you have a weapon or not, or where the weapons are located on your person or in the vehicle.

Fallguy can correct me if I missed a statue that requires you to disclose ahy of this information, but as a HCP holder you're only extra duty is to provide your permit on request.

[Fallguy]

I'm not sure that is right... The law says you have to show the officer your permit, and allow the officer to disarm you, it does not say you must disclose if you have a weapon or not, or where the weapons are located on your person or in the vehicle.

Fallguy can correct me if I missed a statue that requires you to disclose ahy of this information, but as a HCP holder you're only extra duty is to provide your permit on request.

As far as the HCP law I think you are right, it only requires you to show your HCP upon demand and it also allows the LEO to disarm you. Nothing requires you to notify you are armed in the first place, or where or how many.

If he chooses to disarm you by having you remove your weapon, that is his prerogative I would say.

But I would have to say a disarming is not a disarming if your remained armed.......

Also if he ask you where your weapon is, I would take that to mean all of them and anything less than a 100% truthful answer could result in less than favorable consequences.

[Guest db99wj]

As far as the HCP law I think you are right, it only requires you to show your HCP upon demand and it also allows the LEO to disarm you. Nothing requires you to notify you are armed in the first place, or where or how many.

If he chooses to disarm you by having you remove your weapon, that is his prerogative I would say.

But I would have to say a disarming is not a disarming if your remained armed.......

Also if he ask you where your weapon is, I would take that to mean all of them and anything less than a 100% truthful answer could result in less than favorable consequences.

I'm with you. "Technically" you might not have to inform him after the question was ask, or "technically" you answered truthfully about your primary, but If an officer asks you to disarm then I think I would comply with completely disarming and giving full disclosure. I think your day would go bad to worse if you "disarmed" your primary weapon then found out later that you were not 100% truthful. Might be a good way to find your self with your face on the ground, a Hi-tech boot on the back of your neck and some type of police issued firearm pointed at you.

With all that said, I think that disarming a legal HCP holder is not the best course of action.

[Guest Ggun]

During an investigatory stop in progress, the concealment of a handgun with the intent to impair its availability as evidence in the investigation is a class C felony. Not less than 3 nor more than 15 sounds about right. Years, not rounds.

[Fallguy]

During an investigatory stop in progress, the concealment of a handgun with the intent to impair its availability as evidence in the investigation is a class C felony. Not less than 3 nor more than 15 sounds about right. Years, not rounds.

But if the stop has nothing to do with the handgun, how is it evidence in any investigation?

[Guest Ggun]

But if the stop has nothing to do with the handgun, how is it evidence in any investigation?

Once the LEO asks for the HCP and requests that the HCP holder disarm then the validity of the HCP and the validity of the disarming becomes investigatory.

[Fallguy]

Once the LEO asks for the HCP and requests that the HCP holder disarm then the validity of the HCP and the validity of the disarming becomes investigatory.

While I agree you should remove all weapons you have if asked, I'm not sure it is a Class C felony if you don't.

[Guest kirkosaurus]

As far as my job, if you have a weapon on you permit or not it will be taken and locked in my trunk until my dealing with you are done and that is completely legal.

I'm curious as how you would go about doing this when you pull someone over. Do you ask the person to hand you their weapon to put in your trunk (I'm sure you wouldn't do this as you would not want their hand on their weapon) or do you remove them from their car, cuff them, remove their weapon and/or put them in your patrol car while you remove it from their vehicle to put in your trunk?

[Guest Ggun]

While I agree you should remove all weapons you have if asked, I'm not sure it is a Class C felony if you don't.

Well, have you an opinion as to what violation of the law it is?

[Guest 3pugguy]

I will say this, I believe that my situational awareness is much, much better than 99% of the concealed carriers out there specifically because I open carry. I have seen guys walking around in stores with their cover garment hiked up over their gun or tucked behind it and they are completely unaware of that fact and going about their business with exactly zero situational awareness.

Just because your gun is carried concealed does not mean that other people are not aware that it is there.

I wasn't saying your SA was bad nor would I disagree that people might could tell someone is carrying concealed; honestly, though, I would bet many folks don't even notice your sidearm. I was simply offering what I think is important for ALL of us:

be vigilant and stay strong.

In my original reply, I also stated I hoped you would not end your association with the TFA, as you had good points in your post and one butthead should not cause you to avoid the group. Just my two cents Mike!

[Fallguy]

Well, have you an opinion as to what violation of the law it is?

Not really, haven't thought about. Which law do you think it is a violation of?

[Guest Ravendove]

I'm curious as how you would go about doing this when you pull someone over. Do you ask the person to hand you their weapon to put in your trunk (I'm sure you wouldn't do this as you would not want their hand on their weapon) or do you remove them from their car, cuff them, remove their weapon and/or put them in your patrol car while you remove it from their vehicle to put in your trunk?

I had a police officer ask me to disarm at a stop once. I had an out tail light and he wanted me to come look. I decided it would be a good idea to inform him I was carrying and he asked me to take it out, unload it, and hand it to him. I didn't think it was the smartest thing for him to request but I complied. It was at that point that he decided to search my car for "marijuana" and he and his partner separated me and my wife and questioned us.

Now, I didn't smell the marijuana he said he could smell, but if he really did, it could have been because he didn't exactly stop us in the best part of town. We think he just searched us because I was carrying. But that's not really the point of the story.

[Guest crotalus01]

I hope you at least filed a formal complaint against him for violating your civil rights...

[Guest Ravendove]

No, I went home and had dinner. I can't remember what we had but I think we were just glad to be eating, especially since my wife has blood sugar issues and I had been trying to get her home. That's what aggravated me the most.

[Guest Ggun]

Not really, haven't thought about. Which law do you think it is a violation of?

Following the logic (or illogic;)) of earlier, it would be a violation of 39-16-503, which is a class C felony.

[Fallguy]

Following the logic (or illogic;)) of earlier, it would be a violation of 39-16-503, which is a class C felony.

I really think that is a stretch.

How many times does a LEO ask a person "Do you have anything illegal on your person or in your car?" and they say no. Then the LEO finds some dope or a glass pipe or something like that. Do you think they also get charged with 39-16-503 too?

I don't think you have to give testimony or provide evidence against yourself.

For those that may be curious

39-16-503 Tampering with or fabricating evidence.

(a) It is unlawful for any person, knowing that an investigation or official proceeding is pending or in progress, to:

(1)

Alter, destroy, or conceal any record, document or thing with intent to impair its verity, legibility, or availability as evidence in the investigation or official proceeding; or

(2)

Make, present, or use any record, document or thing with knowledge of its falsity and with intent to affect the course or outcome of the investigation or official proceeding.

( A violation of this section is a Class C felony.

....and again I don't think a firearm is evidence in an investigation when being asked to disarm during a traffic stop or other during another incident non-related to the firearm.

But that is just my opinion.

[GLOCKMEISTER]

when future combat is foreseeable only a fool would give up their element of suprise...

[Guest ColdSteel]

when future combat is foreseeable only a fool would give up their element of suprise...

WORD!

[Fallguy]

If one can prevent combat by a show of force prior to any action, isn't that preferable?

[Guest jackdm3]

Or they can take you from your 6 o'clock. Did you guys read the dude's reaction in the infamous "Bubbacoon" story?

[Guest crotalus01]

If one can prevent combat by a show of force prior to any action, isn't that preferable?

THIS is the point of OC. If it fails to be effective, then you are in a really s_hitty situation but at least you still have a gun...

[Guest TN_Mike]

when future combat is foreseeable only a fool would give up their element of suprise...

I have said it before and I will say it again, when I open carry, my situational awareness is much better than ANYONE I know who conceals when they carry. I would bet large sums of money that it is the case with most on this site as well. It is almost human nature to slip into a near condition white when carrying concealed.

If you think the career criminals are not making you, no matter how well you think you are concealing it, you are the fool. They are very good, in fact they are usually much better at spotting a CC'er than most cops are.

If you don't like the way I carry, tough. I don't like the way that most concealed carriers act like the fact that they have a gun on is something to be ashamed of.

[Jonsaiga]

I say good on you for trying to put out the correct info. As far as quitting TFA because of the incident and others prior, I think you should stick with it and try to work to fix the problems. Walking away is sometimes easier but not always best.

In regards to OC vs. CC...... I could care care less how others choose to carry, so long as they do and do so responsibly. For me, it depends on where I'm going, what the weather is like and who I'll be around. The majority of time I do CC.

I have said it before and I will say it again, when I open carry, my situational awareness is much better than ANYONE I know who conceals when they carry. I would bet large sums of money that it is the case with most on this site as well. It is almost human nature to slip into a near condition white when carrying concealed.

It really comes down to the individual and not the choosen mode of carry that dictates the level of awareness. I've seen numerous OC'ers who were completely oblivious to what was going on around them just as I have CC'ers and people who don't carry at all.

If you think the career criminals are not making you, no matter how well you think you are concealing it, you are the fool. They are very good, in fact they are usually much better at spotting a CC'er than most cops are.

With exception of calling/implying anyone is a fool(I'd rather say they are mistaken), I can agree with this statement.

If you don't like the way I carry, tough. I don't like the way that most concealed carriers act like the fact that they have a gun on is something to be ashamed of.

As I said at the begininng of this post, I don't care how one carries just as long as they do. The only thing I don't like is how folks let simple personal opinions/preferences divide us when we should strive work together to protect our rights. Use what works best for you and rock on.

In regards to the LEO who disarms permit holders. I had a LEO aqquaintance I shot IDPA with back in VA that had pretty much the same policy. He worked in a low income, high crime, minority area that was always complaining of police harrassment. His reasoning was to avoid being accused of racial profiling. He said while most people can understand the difference between the potential threat a little old lady with a 38 in her purse posed compared to the more common thuggish gang banger, folks are to sue happy and having a blanket policy was easier. Not saying I aggree, just repeating his view.

[JayC]

I agree give false information very well maybe a criminal violation... Avoiding the question or just not answering it isn't. You're under no duty to answer any questions, but if you do it must be truthfully.

My point is, we're only required to provide the permit, everything else is because we're the good guys and are trying to help - Officers should remember that.

As far as the HCP law I think you are right, it only requires you to show your HCP upon demand and it also allows the LEO to disarm you. Nothing requires you to notify you are armed in the first place, or where or how many.

If he chooses to disarm you by having you remove your weapon, that is his prerogative I would say.

But I would have to say a disarming is not a disarming if your remained armed.......

Also if he ask you where your weapon is, I would take that to mean all of them and anything less than a 100% truthful answer could result in less than favorable consequences.