Shelby Co. TFA meeting: Let's beat up on the OC guy!

[Guest crotalus01]

TGO David,I appreciate the devils advocate stuff, and anything can happen, but be real (as in realistic). Scenario 3 is cured by having decent situational awareness (might happen to Barney Fife) and Scenaro 4 is cured by situational awareness and using a retention holster (Uncle Mikes Sidekick need not apply).

I am NOT saying the situations you describe are out of the question, or even unlikely to happen, but the fact is they have not ever been documented as happening in real life (to my knowledge) to a HCP holder (this does not include LEO, MIL, security guards et al).

99% of criminals are cowards, and if you happen to run into the 1% that is a hardcore badass killer then Murphy just pulled your card and all the OC/CC in the world isnt going to help unless you just get lucky.

[Guest TN_Mike]

TGO David,I appreciate the devils advocate stuff, and anything can happen, but be real (as in realistic). Scenario 3 is cured by having decent situational awareness (might happen to Barney Fife) and Scenaro 4 is cured by situational awareness and using a retention holster (Uncle Mikes Sidekick need not apply).

I am NOT saying the situations you describe are out of the question, or even unlikely to happen, but the fact is they have not ever been documented as happening in real life (to my knowledge) to a HCP holder (this does not include LEO, MIL, security guards et al).

99% of criminals are cowards, and if you happen to run into the 1% that is a hardcore badass killer then Murphy just pulled your card and all the OC/CC in the world isnt going to help unless you just get lucky.

Amen Crotalus01, and for the record, I carry in a level II holster. A Blackhawk serpa to be exact.

And this just in! (always wanted to say that) I emailed Massad Ayoob Friday night about this experience and explained what happened and what was said in the speech by the good "Professor" and I just got an email back from Massad himself. Below is the text of the email. It's short but I think it validates my concerns.

From: massadayoob@aol.com <massadayoob@aol.com>

Re: Speaker

Wow, Mike...that guy doesn't seem to have any experience at all in this sort of case.

I don't recall any one articleof mine that touched all those bases, but I can tell you that you seem to recall my positions on these issues correctly.

Cordially,

Mas

massadayoob@aol.com

That's good enough for me.

[Guest canynracer]

TGO David,I appreciate the devils advocate stuff, and anything can happen, but be real (as in realistic).

OK LETS!!!

Scenario 3 is cured by having decent situational awareness (might happen to Barney Fife) .

Umm, so is scenario one

and Scenaro 4 is cured by situational awareness and using a retention holster (Uncle Mikes Sidekick need not apply).

and again in scenario two. My point is two fold.

1> Lets not turn this to OC vs CC...

2> ANY situtaion whether OC or CC situational awareness plays a HUGE role. In the first scenario, the BG walked up and saw the gun...From the way it was written, all of that happened while the "victim" just kept putting groceries in the car...

I am NOT saying the situations you describe are out of the question, or even unlikely to happen, but the fact is they have not ever been documented as happening in real life (to my knowledge) to a HCP holder (this does not include LEO, MIL, security guards et al).

99% of criminals are cowards, and if you happen to run into the 1% that is a hardcore badass killer then Murphy just pulled your card and all the OC/CC in the world isnt going to help unless you just get lucky.

true Edited August 25, 2009 by canynracer

[Guest canynracer]

I would like to point out that these two scenarios sound much like the "if we allow guns with alcohol, everyone will go crazy shooting" and "guns in our parks will have people shooting refs/coaches/parents at every game!" arguments.

same could be said about scenario one, or two

I have yet to see any news reports from across the country where either one of these scenarios have happened.

show me a news report that OC saved the day.

I have see people talking about how they feel a crime wasn't committed because the would be criminal saw the gun and thought twice.

I have seen when a responsible carrier (OC or CC) has had the where-with-all to deter the crime just cause they were paying attention to their surroundings...The ones we read about in the news are more likely CC'ers, cause according to you, OC is a deterrant...

I'm not saying that might not happen, but it seems that most criminals are not only stupid, but tend to avoid people who can defend themselves as they don't want a fair fight.

Matthew

true dat

[G27]

99% of criminals are cowards, and if you happen to run into the 1% that is a hardcore badass killer then Murphy just pulled your card and all the OC/CC in the world isnt going to help unless you just get lucky.

That's sig-file worthy...

[TGO David]

Let me take my Admin / Moderator hat off for a second so that I don't get any nasty replies accusing me of representing the "fold" poorly...

[...Just Regular David Speaking...]

I honestly believe that there are very few cases (as in 1%) where open carry is going to be more advantageous than concealed carry, and even then I would argue that the advantages are purely ergonomic rather than tactical.

I further believe that a large percentage of people who open carry do so as a form of passive activism. They do it because "it's my God given right" or because "if we don't exercise our rights, what good are they" etc, ad nauseum.

First of all, your holster isn't the place to be an activist. Your firearm is a tool for self defense. It's not a ballot box and it's not a picket sign. If you want to be an activist, there are better ways to do it that don't involve your means of self defense being displayed for shock value.

Second, you can exercise your 2nd Amendment rights by (a.) voting, (b.) buying a firearm, (c.) obtaining a HCP and (d.) by carrying regularly. You don't have to carry openly, just frickin carry the damn thing.

Third, there are significant advantages to be had in blending in with the scenery and you aren't going to do that while open carrying unless you're in the middle of a pack of police officers and you're in uniform yourself.

The military spends an obscene amount of time, energy, resources and money on perfecting camouflage for a reason. Hunters do the same. Because blending in makes sense, both from an offensive and defensive perspective. There simply is no reason to walk around showing your hand, so to speak, when you can play those cards close to the vest and have the element of surprise on your side.

The 1% of people who cannot carry concealed due to physical limitations or ergonomic concerns (i.e. the guy who can't wear an IWB holster because he has too many Burger King deserts crammed into his belt line) get a free pass on this... and grudgingly even then. I know people who are in wheel chairs who still manage to conceal their sidearms. Plus, I'm a fatty myself but somehow I manage to use an IWB holster and some pretty big-ass guns inside them to boot.

I realize this will fly all over the "It's my God Given Right as an American!" contingent and I respect that. But I also think they are well meaning but a little misguided in this instance. Yes, it's your Right... and no one is questioning that. Some of us just question whether or not you're getting the most out of your Right from a practical perspective.

[...Admin/ Moderator Hat Back On...]

Edited August 25, 2009 by TGO David

[Guest db99wj]

IMO, all the scenarios have a some validity to them and some way out there worst case scenario in them. With that said, IMO, we should take what is written in these scenarios, and at least think about the pros and cons of each, the possibilities of each and the potential results of each and use that to form an all around "carry position" that we or a better word would be "you" are comfortable with. You can would of, could of, should of and you should do this, that and the other, but each situation will be different, and there is no way to be 100% prepared for every situation or scenario out there, because each bad guy will do different things, and won't do the same thing twice due to situation changing.

In other words, too many variables to say what will or will not happen, you just have to be prepared and aware of the pro's and con's of what and how you carry.

I prefer to conceal, I don't want to stand out, I don't want to make a statement for the most part. I treasure the fact that we can open carry in Tennessee and I have done so on occasion. I have to conceal and conceal well with a tucked in shirt. Is this ideal? No, due to an added step of pulling my shirt tail out, before I can draw. I am aware, I practice, and I am ok with the fact that I will be a little slower than an untucked shirt or open carrying. My life style and my level of anonymity that I desire demands it.

I also believe that the awareness, how you carry you self, and how you act/react to people will help you avoid bad situations more than anything else. If you are the type that looks down, never looks around, hands full, fumbling around, you are an easy target. If you are the opposite, not so much. Because out of all that has been said, one thing IMO that is safe to say is that a bg doesn't want a "hard" target, they would much rather have an easier target and will seek those people out and avoid the other.

[Tim Nunan]

I suggest taking this up with John Harris and voicing your discontent. While the TFA doesn't control what their members (or guests) say, that chapter should have done a little better job vetting this speaker before putting him front and center to ramble off a stream of patently false information.

Our chapter has had sitting legislators mistate the law as speakers as well as several LEO's, e.g., most don't think we can carry in a bank (they believe federal law precludes it). Having opposing views presented at a meeting can serve as a teaching opportunity for the attendees as well as the speaker.

[Smith]

Senario 3: Bad guy comes up behind you while you're bent over in your car and grabs your gun out of it's holster (since you're open carrying) and then proceeds to really ruin your day.

Senario 4: Bad guy comes up behind you while you're bent over in your car and sees that you're open carrying. He decides to just pump a few rounds into you and steal your wallet, car, etc. rather than risk confronting you on equal footing.

For those who say they want to see some proof of this happening: What about the numerous times it has happened to LE, correctional officers, etc. Weapon retention is a big thing taught to these professionals for a very good reason.

[TGO David]

Our chapter has had sitting legislators mistate the law as speakers as well as several LEO's, e.g., most don't think we can carry in a bank (they believe federal law precludes it). Having opposing views presented at a meeting can serve as a teaching opportunity for the attendees as well as the speaker.

Isn't the point of these meetings, and the organization itself, to educate the members? I understand what you're saying, but if you have misinformation coming from the pulpit... I'd try to screen it a little better. But that's just me.

You can't control what the guest speakers say, but you can definitely control who the guest speakers are and whether they get a repeat appearance if they turn out to be tools.

[memphismason]

OC vs CC

I carry concealed, because of the surprise factor. However I had seen a shady individual in a parking lot before and pulled my shirt behind my gun, and he changed direction. However I have also seen another shady charcter in a parking lot and remained concealed due to keeping the element of surprise.

First shady guy was a drunk bumb.

Second shady guy was a thug.

I used common sense, and what I figured to be best suited for the situation.

I carry concealed only because I like to. and I am thankfully that I am not required to.

Edited August 25, 2009 by memphismason
added more thought provoking statements, due to my awesomeness

[TGO David]

Oh, I'm completely thankful that we do not have to be concealed in Tennessee. I also firmly believe that the reason we don't have a concealed requirement is because some forward thinking individuals knew that occasionally feces would occur and we'd end up exposing our firearm while bending down to tie our shoe, or reaching up to get that last box of Tactical Froot Loops off the top shelf at Kroger.

In states where concealment is mandatory, accidentally exposing your firearm can actually lead to charges being filed against you. So yeah, I'm really glad we don't have that asinine requirement here.

[Tim Nunan]

Originally Posted by Tim Nunan

Our chapter has had sitting legislators mistate the law as speakers as well as several LEO's, e.g., most don't think we can carry in a bank (they believe federal law precludes it). Having opposing views presented at a meeting can serve as a teaching opportunity for the attendees as well as the speaker.

Isn't the point of these meetings, and the organization itself, to educate the members? I understand what you're saying, but if you have misinformation coming from the pulpit... I'd try to screen it a little better. But that's just me.

You can't control what the guest speakers say, but you can definitely control who the guest speakers are and whether they get a repeat appearance if they turn out to be tools.

Certainly one of the goals of the meetings is certainly to educate the attendees (not a requirement to be a TFA member to attend the meetings).

When a speaker is in error they get corrected just as TN_Mike did. As for prescreening how's that working out here on TGO when some posters get it wrong? They get corrected with a resource. And yes... if a speaker turns "out to be tools" they don't invited back.

Surely posters here aren't kicked out just for having an opposing view?

[TGO David]

Surely posters here aren't kicked out just for having an opposing view?

Nah Tim... you know better than that. We still have plenty of TFA members here.

[Guest TN_Mike]

TGO David, I understand your position on open vs. concealed carry. I have had this debate with people for years. I am not saying that I open carry 100% of the time. I conceal some too.

But, you may not agree with the statement aspect of open carry but I assure you it works. I have had countless conversations with individuals who started out anti gun as hell and by the time we were done speaking (the conversation always starts because they notice my gun) they are at the least open minded to the possibility that we gun owners and carriers are good people and not blood thirsty nuts. I have invited several to the range and I can point to 3 people that are now friends, started out anti gun and are not gun owners and HCP holders! it works.

And I do believe that the more sheep out there who see someone responsible with a gun on, who isn't a LEO, the better it is for all of us. You may not agree, and that is your right. We will just have to live with the fact that we do not agree on this.

I have open carried since moving to Tennessee from Alabama in 2005. I have had not one single bad reaction, no cross words, not instances where the police were called because of me, not a single bad interaction with police in any way. I have been told by several Shelby County deputies that they like seeing citizens openly carrying.

[TGO David]

Just to be clear, I don't begrudge you the right to carry openly. It's just not for me, for the reasons expressed earlier. If it's working for you then that's all that matters.

[Guest trigem]

Well, here we are again, Conceal vs Open carry

Sunday _ Friday Concealed carry

:chill:Saturday - Dress up nice, shave, comb hair open carry all day

People get exposed to good people carrying guns, no panic, slowly conditioning every one around me I'm a good guy with a gun

Lets every one do that one day a week, soon it will be a normal thing:koolaid:

I was raised in Vermont, We has kids carried open with big six shooters ( Ruger 357's) on our hip, we would go into stores,banks what ever, never have a problem

[Guest crotalus01]

In all fairness to this debate, I think there is a HUGE difference between OC in, say Memfrica where the crime rate is astronomical, and OC in someplace like BFE where people routinely leave their houses unlocked.

OC in Memphis is an advantage (bums go the other way, criminals too) where OC in BFE may get the average Joe Citizen to call 911 about a MWAG.

OC here in Memphis is common enough that people really dont seem to notice, or at leat they dont freak out and call the Police....

[Guest TN_Mike]

In all fairness to this debate, I think there is a HUGE difference between OC in, say Memfrica where the crime rate is astronomical, and OC in someplace like BFE where people routinely leave their houses unlocked.

OC in Memphis is an advantage (bums go the other way, criminals too) where OC in BFE may get the average Joe Citizen to call 911 about a MWAG.

OC here in Memphis is common enough that people really dont seem to notice, or at leat they dont freak out and call the Police....

Glad to see someone else from the area who really understands this. Thanks crotalus01.

[ZenDog]

Hey TGO David/Tungsten--- What about those Tactical Fruit Loops? Are they any good?

[Guest 3pugguy]

Senario 3: Bad guy comes up behind you while you're bent over in your car and grabs your gun out of it's holster (since you're open carrying) and then proceeds to really ruin your day.

Senario 4: Bad guy comes up behind you while you're bent over in your car and sees that you're open carrying. He decides to just pump a few rounds into you and steal your wallet, car, etc. rather than risk confronting you on equal footing.

Scenario Five: maintain good situational awareness to make scenarios 1 thru 4 moot.

And stay away from that Memphis area Piggly Wiggly mentioned in another post

[Guest TN_Mike]

I will say this, I believe that my situational awareness is much, much better than 99% of the concealed carriers out there specifically because I open carry. I have seen guys walking around in stores with their cover garment hiked up over their gun or tucked behind it and they are completely unaware of that fact and going about their business with exactly zero situational awareness.

Just because your gun is carried concealed does not mean that other people are not aware that it is there.

[Guest Tn.Mitch]

TGO David, I understand your position on open vs. concealed carry. I have had this debate with people for years. I am not saying that I open carry 100% of the time. I conceal some too.

But, you may not agree with the statement aspect of open carry but I assure you it works. I have had countless conversations with individuals who started out anti gun as hell and by the time we were done speaking (the conversation always starts because they notice my gun) they are at the least open minded to the possibility that we gun owners and carriers are good people and not blood thirsty nuts. I have invited several to the range and I can point to 3 people that are now friends, started out anti gun and are not gun owners and HCP holders! it works.

And I do believe that the more sheep out there who see someone responsible with a gun on, who isn't a LEO, the better it is for all of us. You may not agree, and that is your right. We will just have to live with the fact that we do not agree on this.

I have open carried since moving to Tennessee from Alabama in 2005. I have had not one single bad reaction, no cross words, not instances where the police were called because of me, not a single bad interaction with police in any way. I have been told by several Shelby County deputies that they like seeing citizens openly carrying.

You know me Mike,and I tend to agree with you,I have to keep my Glock 27,and my M&P 40 fs coverd most of the time,because my coustermers,might not like the idea,that im working on their property,carring a firearm.but as soon as I leave,my shirt gooes back in my cargo shorts,I get alot of sweat running down my side everday,right down into my holsterr,and onto my gun,which gets a salt build up under the mag release,I really have to clean and oil it really good on my day off,I rotate between 3 fiferent holsters,for each gun,all bought used on ebay,just to work in,so they can get a chance to dry out from the sweat.They are my work guns and holsters.But when im off work,thats a different story,I have thousands of dollars of holsters,including a dozen Milt sparks,and other top holster makers,and thousands of dollars of 1911's,with custom finish wood grips.I wore some faded Geans,nice pull-overshirt,short sleave,tucked in,with a Cordovan Milt Sparks belt,with a Cordovan Milt Sparks Axiom Holster for 5 inch 1911's,With Black shark skin trim,witha stainless steel dual tone Taurus PT 1911,with $100 Buck-eye Burl Grips on it made by Sarges Grips,with my snake skin cowboy boots,I guess some of you call this a Barbcue holster and gun...But I believe I have the right To buy,and show my nice rig off while Im out taking care of Bussiness.I went into Bush's Juelery store in Hendersonville,The tracktor supply store,the Bank of Hendersonville,Value Vision Glases in Rivergate,Guns and Leather in Grreenbair,and Philips,

Gun store in Goodletsville,And of course Walmart and Sams in Rivergate,all today.with no problems.I carry concealed most of the time,but I think it does the sheeple good to see some of us open carring sometimes,and seing that we are just like them and not out to murder them and there children,that we have familys and childrern too and grand children for some of us .. of yeah,a couple of stop and rob stores too (Markets) for some bottled water.Most of my holsters are IWB,when open carring,i feel safer, being most of the gun is inside my pants and closer to my body,with my belt tightly drawn across it,than when I open carry with a OWB belt hoster,im allways more aware whos close to me and I keep my arm over it,as much as possible to protect it....just a couple of night s ago I was comming out of Walmat in Hendersonville,with my S&W M&P 40fs straped on my hip,in a Desantis Thumb Break holster OWB,wearing my workclothes,Cargo shorts,tank top,work boots,and as I walked out the door there on a police horse sat a Hendersonville Cop,With a Married couple with there children petting the horse,He noticed my gun as son as I walked out the door,I walked over to check out the horse,and we had a nice conversation about Glock,and M&P handguns for Police and Cilviain carry after the other people had walked off and we were alone,a very nice officer.I have had only 1 negitive experence when open carring,and I refused to let that stop me from my right to do so.If im right there are BOUT 40 OPEN CARRY states,some states,like New Hamshire,I think you can open carry with out a permit,if you want to conceal carry you have to get a permit,it makes it seam to me that they think its skeaky to carry concealed,thats why you have to get a permit to do so..If you open carry,your not trying to be sneaky or hide anything.Believe me ive been a member of this fourm long enough to know that people are either on one side or the other when it comes to conceal carry,or open carry,its like your either the anti gun crouwd or the NRA, Day or night.I believe a person should carry how ever they feel comftrable doing.I believe theres a time and place for both everyday,oh yeah I allmost forgot,I ate supper at the Texas Roadhouse in Hendersonville,and yess open carring...I think if you dress nice,(not like a thug,with your pants falling off your buttocks)and act like a adult with good sence,you will have no problems,I believe that people with Carry permits are the most law abbiding people that are on the streets,and I would trust them anytime over JoeQ. Public,When I left the restraunt I was sober 100%, what about all the Joe Q. Public's that had 5 or 6 drinks with there food??how many did they have on the way there, but its ok for them to leave in a 3000 pound deadly weapon( a car),and mabe kill me or you on the way home...Mike I have a Black hawk Serpra holster for my G27 and my M&P,I dont use the paddle,I run my belt through them,I They are some of my work holsters.I just think IMO that the conceal carry only group,should lighten up on thiose of us who chose to open carry sometimes..because just between you and me,I believe its because they dont have the stones to do it themeselves, so they dont want anyone else to do it.The guys who carry these light weight alium 3 inch 1911's,that worry about printing in a open carry state,and wine about it being uncontroble,and heavy,(the holster rubs my side,or my leg)Its not for everyone.I believe a real man shouildnt have any problem carrying a full sizs 5 inch 1911 with atleast 1 full spare mag,flashlight,knife,I carry 12 pounds of stuff everyday,a Berretta Tomcat 32 cal in my right front pocket as a backup,in a Don Hume leather pocket holster.While carrying all this proudly,I do manual labour in the hot sun.Im the guy you see running up and down the road pulling a trailer,carring comercial 0 turn Mowers,with 2 or 3 weed eaters,gas containers,push mowers, blowers.A small bisuniess, but my own,I work hard for my money,and I dont mind spending my money on nice guns,and leather.Before you all take me out and find find a tree to hang me in,first of all, I love all you guys and gals,and have the utmost respect for all of you, I have learned alot from all of you since I started comming here back at the first of the year and am gratefull to all of you for your addvice and help,im not knocking anyone,just saying that in general that we are all different and should be able to be different without being hasseled or looked down on,on how we choose to carry,im sorry for being all over the place in this post..If I didnt live so far from you Mike Id go out to eat open carring with you anywere,and that goes to anyone in Hendersonville,or the Nashville area,Id be glad to get a open carry group to eat at different restaurants around town,that support open carry to show the public,what we are all about,if interested,just send me a priviate message....Keep open carrying Mike and stay safe,because I will also. As usaul Im sorrry for my spelling,or lack of,I did finish High school,but I never cared for spelling,...wish I had now :(Thanks for letting me ramble..

Edited August 26, 2009 by Tn.Mitch

[Guest Phantom6]

....and if you happen to run into the 1% that is a hardcore badass killer then Murphy just pulled your card and all the OC/CC in the world isnt going to help unless you just get lucky.

I strongly disagree. If you are relying on luck to survive then the ods are you will not. When it comes to a man's life or death, I much rather bet on skill than on luck. If you run into that hardcore, badass killer you had better be able to rise beyond the level of the hardcore badassness of your assailent if you plan to see your family again.

Granted, a little luck never hurt anything but it will take training to survive an armed, violent encounter. According to the resulting investigation, the business owner that called 911 down in McMinn County (I believe) saying he had a subject at gunpoint in his store only to have the LEOs arrive to find him laying lifeless on the floor of his business obviously was not well trained and probably was relying on a little luck to get him through like other's who's stories have appeared in the Armed Citizen section of the NRA mags. Andrew Patti survived a near miss with a pair of cold blooded killers not because he was lucky but because he had trained for a violent encounter and how to react. Luck may play a very small part in your survival but I would submit that you would be far better off with relying on good, solid training to create your own luck.

[TGO David]

Hey TGO David/Tungsten--- What about those Tactical Fruit Loops? Are they any good?

They kick the **** out of your breakfast and turn your milk FDE. Heck yeah!