Shelby Co. TFA meeting: Let's beat up on the OC guy!

[Guest TN_Mike]

Last Thursday (Aug 20) I went to the Shelby County (TN) TFA meeting (Tennessee Firearms Association). Every third Thursday we have it. It is a good time. We talk about gun laws and events here in West Tennessee.

Well, this meeting was a bit different. We had a speaker that we had not had before. A local law professor, lawyer and speaker. This guy is a piece of work I can tell you. His whole speech was basically telling us we should never subscribe to any gun magazines, don't visit gun related web sites, don't talk about guns and your knowledge of them and ammo. Really, he was telling us that he is a scum bag lawyer and he has represented scum bags who sue permit holders who have had to shoot in defense of self and that he grills the permit holders on their gun magazine reading, their internet activity as it pertains to guns and self defense and all sorts of other things. He even suggests that ranges and training institutions should re-name their courses to sound less scary. Don't call a class "tactical shotgun" but rather "home defense shotgun" to sound less aggressive. (I can see the logic, although small, in this)

Then he said that we here in Tennessee have to carry concealed and I couldn't take it any more. I interrupted his speech and told him he was wrong. Another man in the meeting actually spoke up as well. We explained that the permit is not a concealed carry permit but that open carry is 100% legal and I told him that I do it all the time. He rolled his eyes (I hate that ) and told me that I was foolish for doing so. He told me that he had ridden with the Memphis PD SWAT team and they loved putting what they call "Smart assed open carriers" on the ground for carrying their gun uncovered.

I told him that if that happens, it would be fine and I would surely take legal action after I was released for committing no crime. He again told me I was foolish. I kind of lost it and told him I would think that someone who is supposed to be a law professor and lawyer but does not even know that the TN permit is not a CCW permit shouldn't be calling anyone foolish.

Then the loud mouthed retired cop we have at the meetings decided to speak up and tell me that I would surely be the first one shot if I was in a store that got robbed. Mind you, he said this while wearing a "Shoot-me-first-vest" that had a light spot worn on the side where is fat arm rubs his pistol when he walks!

The end result was, it was a crappy meeting, with a lot of bad info presented by the speaker, info that I have seen refuted by the likes of nationally recognized experts like Massad Ayoob and Clint Smith in many articles and books. To top it off, I get beat up on by a few of the members for carrying openly when any self defense firearms organization such as the TFA should be focused on just getting as many people legally carrying regardless of the mode of carry, and I had a really bad time and am considering never going to another.

I used to have a link to the TFA home page in my signature, but no more. I just can't support them when they will have a speaker like this clown put me down because I choose to not be ashamed that I carry and do so openly!

[Fallguy]

It does seem the anti-OC people among HCP holders are worse than the anti-gun folks in the general public.

Also it does sound like this guy doesn't have all his ducks in a row.

Good for you for trying to clear some mis-information up.

[Guest canynracer]

Nice job Mike. Although I may not agree with the carry methods, (not for ME) I totally support your decision to do so!!!

Just curious, did you let the meeting leader know your feelings?

Edited August 24, 2009 by canynracer

[G27]

Thanks for the info. And while OC isn't my choice, anyone who distorts the law and utilizes this sort of fear mongering isn't a friend of our rights.

If you haven't already, you may want to talk to the TFA about this clown - they may not really know who he is or what he's about...

[Guest Ravendove]

I wouldn't go back either. People like that are why I usually don't seek out firearms groups. Anyone who makes excuses for abusing law abiding citizens when they're following the law is no friend of mine. I've also known a lot of lawyers. So far I haven't been impressed. Most of them seem to think they can make the laws say whatever they want to suit their agendas but five minutes with them will show they have a real deficiency in sense and logic, also intellectual skills.

Personally, I used to open carry all the time. I don't anymore and the reason should be obvious from my first ever posts on this site, but it's not at all because I disagree with the practice. I'll still OC when around the yard or walking the dog but most of the time I keep it under coat or over-shirt. I just deal with less ignorance that way.

[Guest Phantom6]

..... I couldn't take it any more. I interrupted his speech and told him he was wrong...

...it was a crappy meeting, with a lot of bad info presented by the speaker, info that I have seen refuted by the likes of nationally recognized experts like Massad Ayoob and Clint Smith in many articles and books. To top it off, I get beat up on by a few of the members for carrying openly when any self defense firearms organization such as the TFA should be focused on just getting as many people legally carrying regardless of the mode of carry, and I had a really bad time and am considering never going to another.

I used to have a link to the TFA home page in my signature, but no more. I just can't support them when they will have a speaker like this clown put me down because I choose to not be ashamed that I carry and do so openly!

Wow. Sounds like you got your feelings hurt. Too bad you are considering an inability to continue to support an organization like the TFA. But, you can say what you wish and at least in this state, OC if you choose.

First of all, I wasn’t there and don’t know the tone of the meeting but as you described it, my first thought was how interesting it was to get a point of view such as that provided by the “enemy camp†in the form of the type of lawyer that may be leading the charge in prosecuting defensive shooters after a defensive encounter that caused the death or maiming of an attacker. How interesting it would be to know the tactics they would employ in an attempt to severely punish you either criminally or civilly for what you were forced by your assailant to do to protect life and limb. If I know the form of the attack I am better prepared to defend myself against it. It’s kind of like training with my pistols and long guns. The reaction to the assault can be honed to be un-waveringly sure and swift. While I understand the reasoning behind your correction of this “legal eagle’s†incorrect assertion that Tennessee requires concealment it is a real shame that your rude interruption apparently and by your own account, caused the meeting to degenerate away from the valuable information that could be gleaned from such a speaker. Sounds like it turned into a spitting competition between the OC and CC factions of individuals attending that gathering. Too bad for all involved.

Secondly, while the law in our state makes no demand for concealment, I carry concealed about 99% of the time. I don't check my shirt tail every 2-3 seconds to see if I am fully covered and non printing but I am a strong advocate of concealed carry. I do so not because I’m ashamed of carrying a gun as your post might suggest but because it is much more practical in the long run.

• I never have to be asked to leave an establishment because I have alarmed some old, blue haired, yellow dog democrat liberal
  
• I don’t have time consuming encounters with police officers who are unsure about the law
  
• I never get nervous treatment from cashiers or clerks
  
• Etc., etc., etc.
  

All of which has been a source of complaint by OCer’s elsewhere on this board. In short, if I don’t go wondering around with my gun exposed I have a much quieter life and I’m all about quiet. For me personally, if asked how much money I have or if I am carrying a firearm, the answer is the same- "its none of your damned business." I am in firm agreement with President T. Roosevelt when he said “walk softly and carry a big stick.â€

Finally, the TFA is not a “self defense firearms organization†as you call it. While it is an organization that was formed in 1995 by a group of grassroots activists who were interested in addressing problems with Tennessee’s civilian handgun permit law, it’s stated purpose as a not-for-profit corporation is “protecting our right to keep and bear arms.†It’s on the header of their website . Dig out the link you tossed and go there and look at it some time. There are pictures of individuals participating in a variety of firearms activities from hunting to bulls-eye competition, 3 gun matches as well as self defense activities. Go to the blue navigation area on the left side of the page and click on the link that is entitled Shooting Sports and you will see that the TFA workings on programs to help promote youth shooting, scholastic shooting and new firearms owner shooting across all disciplines. They are an organization that is dedicated to the preservation of all of our individual liberties, including the right to keep and bear arms.

I would submit that you're a little off base with your comments and observations but that's just me and that's my

[Guest HexHead]

Secondly, while the law in our state makes no demand for concealment, I carry concealed about 99% of the time. I don't check my shirt tail every 2-3 seconds to see if I am fully covered and non printing but I am a strong advocate of concealed carry. I do so not because I’m ashamed of carrying a gun as your post might suggest but because it is much more practical in the long run.

• I never have to be asked to leave an establishment because I have alarmed some old, blue haired, yellow dog democrat liberal
  
• I don’t have time consuming encounters with police officers who are unsure about the law
  
• I never get nervous treatment from cashiers or clerks
  
• Etc., etc., etc.
  

I am in firm agreement with President T. Roosevelt when he said “walk softly and carry a big stick.”

All good points.

[EMTRN]

He told me that he had ridden with the Memphis PD SWAT team and they loved putting what they call "Smart assed open carriers" on the ground for carrying their gun uncovered.

In my experience working around the MPD Tact Unit, they have much more to worry about than HCP holders. If he called them a "SWAT" team, I can assure you that he has not been around them. They are a "TACT Unit" and will correct you quickly if you mention SWAT.

[Guest PapaB]

TN Mike said:

"Then he said that we here in Tennessee have to carry concealed and I couldn't take it any more. I interrupted his speech and told him he was wrong. Another man in the meeting actually spoke up as well."

and Phantom6 replied:

"... it is a real shame that your rude interruption apparently and by your own account, caused the meeting to degenerate away from the valuable information that could be gleaned from such a speaker."

Really? Do you think incorrect information is valuable? I agree with your concept of hearing what the opposition says to learn their tactics. It's always better to understand the opposition IMHO. In this case, when the speaker started making mis-statements of fact concerning what the law says, I don't blame the OP for speaking up. Innacurate info isn't valuable, it's somewhat dangerous.

[Fallguy]

While I don't fully agree with Phantom6 on that the OP had his feelings hurt or that he was wrong for interupting the speaker, I do agree that I wouldn't hold the TFA wholely or directly responsiable for what the speaker said.

[Punisher84]

While I don't fully agree with Phantom6 on that the OP had his feelings hurt or that he was wrong for interupting the speaker, I do agree that I wouldn't hold the TFA wholely or directly responsiable for what the speaker said.

Agreed and I know Mike and I know the member he is talking about. Mike's good people and I'm pretty sure he didn't just get his feelings hurt.

[Guest jackdm3]

That night was my first with TFA. It went just as Mike is saying. My friend was the other man that spoke in tune with Mike. I wouldn't say that he interrupted the speaker, as the meeting showed there was a lot of discourse. The speaker was brought in to show the prosecutor's point of view, and he did that in spades. He had never heard of Ayoob, but that is understandable since he doesn't read the gun mags. I don't think it was the intention of the moderator to bring in someone who seemed so antagonistic towards us. The speaker appears to enjoy fighting us in court. We now know a little bit about how the other side thinks.

On another note, the "loud mouthed retired cop" certainly wore a hideous vest that screamed "I'm packing" and I would offer to everyone here that we should be more creative in our attire. On two occasions I've seen guys wearing the vests with HUGE Beretta and S & W logos on them. Why bother even covering in that case? I prefer to cover. I don't have a hoster with locking devices, and so I wouldn't want to have it taken from me because I didn't see someone in my blind spot. My friend however will OC every chance he gets and I think that serves a purpose, too. It may be that more people seeing a sleeping weapon may desensitize the public and encourage others to join our ranks. It may not. On the topic of OC's showing up at Town Hall meetings, I've seen a lot of segments on several news networks of a large woman being extremely vocal and being carried out by the arms by FOUR cops as well as many other "dissenters" asked to leave for being black sheep, yet the few OC's were being ... PEACEFUL!

At the back of the room was a member typing in his laptop his notes on the meeting, and the speaker shut the meeting down for two minutes to assert that the speech was "Copywrited" and then proceeded to talk about the man's cell phone having a microrecorder. There was no such information that was copywritable.

He did offer one bit that I could use. He strongly urged us that in the event we're involved in a shooting and it looks like they are going to take us to jail, make it known that you feel bad, like you're having a heart attack. He repeated, "HEART ATTACK." In such a case the cops are to take you to a hospital. The treatment will be better than the jail's physician. If there is one. He said we would think we should be OK after a shooting, but that rarely is the case. I've heard of deafness, disorientation, tunnel vision, etc., as I experienced in a temporarily paralyzing T-bone accident, that would make me believe that you really are not in a state-of-mind to speak about anything to anybody.

Unfortunately, the speaker took away time that I was hoping would be spent on the next guest, Shelby County Sheriff Mark Luttrell. Mark said he would come again to speak at length in the future, and for that alone I do not think TN Mike needs to quit the TFA group. We need a variety of perspectives here. CALL IT RECON!!!

Edited August 24, 2009 by jackdm3
Luttrell mis-spelled

[Tim Nunan]

The TFA like the TGO consists of members with a varity of opinions on gun related issues. Those opposed to open carry at the Shelby county meeting sound like some who have stated the same position on the TGO forum yet those promoting open carry stay here. :: shrugs::

[Guest Ggun]

snipHe did offer one bit that I could use. He strongly urged us that in the event we're involved in a shooting and it looks like they are going to take us to jail, make it known that you feel bad, like you're having a heart attack. He repeated, "HEART ATTACK." In such a case the cops are to take you to a hospital. The treatment will be better than the jail's physician. If there is one. He said we would think we should be OK after a shooting, but that rarely is the case. I've heard of deafness, disorientation, tunnel vision, etc., as I experienced in a temporarily paralyzing T-bone accident, that would make me believe that you really are not in a state-of-mind to speak about anything to anybody.

snip

Wait until they are about to take you to jail and then claim heart attack. Great advice.

[Guest jackdm3]

I'm sorry. All the time they are questioning.

[TGO David]

I suggest taking this up with John Harris and voicing your discontent. While the TFA doesn't control what their members (or guests) say, that chapter should have done a little better job vetting this speaker before putting him front and center to ramble off a stream of patently false information.

[Guest 3pugguy]

Mike,

Maybe the speaker was being a bit of "Provocateur". Or maybe since the main TFA guy is an attorney, he wanted you all to see that even if the opposing guy in a gun case is full of misinformation, if he can elicit emotional responses, he has a chance to win (thinking jurors).

I wasn't there, but would state I don't disagree with your concern on wrong info, but find it very curious such a fella would be at a TFA meeting (and go to my original thought there could be more at work than we realize).

But that stated, I would not hold TFA responsible for the speaker's content, anymore than I would think to hold TGO management at fault for a post that is wrong (regarding issues of law) or with which I disagree. (point of view).

My three cents, since this was longer than I meant it to be when starting to type.

[JayC]

I'm not going to speak for him, but I serious doubt John Harris was involved in scheduling the speaker for the Memphis monthly meeting.

Mike,

Maybe the speaker was being a bit of "Provocateur". Or maybe since the main TFA guy is an attorney, he wanted you all to see that even if the opposing guy in a gun case is full of misinformation, if he can elicit emotional responses, he has a chance to win (thinking jurors).

I wasn't there, but would state I don't disagree with your concern on wrong info, but find it very curious such a fella would be at a TFA meeting (and go to my original thought there could be more at work than we realize).

But that stated, I would not hold TFA responsible for the speaker's content, anymore than I would think to hold TGO management at fault for a post that is wrong (regarding issues of law) or with which I disagree. (point of view).

My three cents, since this was longer than I meant it to be when starting to type.

[Guest TN_Mike]

I'm not going to speak for him, but I serious doubt John Harris was involved in scheduling the speaker for the Memphis monthly meeting.

My understanding, from the Chapter leader, Pat McGarrity, was that this guy, his name is Mike Roberts I believe, knows John and is in touch with him regularly. My understanding from the meeting is that this guy will be some sort of spokes person for the TFA in the future. If this is the case, then I really am not interested in being a part of the organization.

While I don't fully agree with Phantom6 on that the OP had his feelings hurt or that he was wrong for interrupting the speaker, I do agree that I wouldn't hold the TFA wholly or directly responsible for what the speaker said.

My feelings were not hurt. But you must understand, the retired cop takes every chance he can get to deride my choice of carry even though he himself, as I pointed out to everyone, does a halfhearted job of "concealing" his gun with his choice of vest. After going to the meetings for 3 years and nearly every single time being told by the same guy that I am dumb for openly carrying, I am just tired of hearing it. I just don't feel the need to be a part of it any more.

Edited August 25, 2009 by TN_Mike

[Worriedman]

I am the Chapter Leader of the West TN Chapter of the TFA. There is no central control out of Nashville, enough of that coming out of Washington, thank you.

I have received help, assistance and advise in response from John when I have asked for it, but have never been directed as to how to run my local chapter.

Our chapter has decided to have as many candidates for office as speakers as we can, they get to state their positions, and are required to participate in a question and answer session as part of the program.

At our first meeting we had 65 attendees, and it has defiantly garnered some interest from the local pols.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Worriedman

[Guest forklift]

Mike... you are not the only person in TN to open carry. Just thought you should know you have fellow OC'ers out there! You are not alone and you are not crazy!

Scenario 1: Let's say you're putting your groceries in the car... bad guy comes up behind you, but notices you're carrying a gun and has a second thought about trying anything.

Scenario 2: Bad guy comes up behind you while you're bent over in your car (groceries again). you are not open carrying... therefore, he pulls a gun on you. Now WHAT in the WORLD are you going to do? lift your shirt and pull a gun while a gun is in your face or are you just going to hand over your wallet?

[Guest TN_Mike]

Forklift, Brother I know I am not the only open carrier out here. I know of approx 20 other people who carry openly in just my small town of Arlington. It is not uncommon here at all.

Good to hear from another brother OC'er though!

[Guest 3pugguy]

I'm not going to speak for him, but I serious doubt John Harris was involved in scheduling the speaker for the Memphis monthly meeting.

I sure don't know (heck, guessing), but do wonder why they would have someone so out of synch (who knows - only the Shadow).

Anyway, seems like TN Mike held his own and I once again would not hold TFA, regardless of who set up the speaker, responsible for the event speaker's point of view or message; that's throwing baby out with the bath water imho.

Of coures, it could simply be the attorney that was speaking is just dumb as a sack of hammers - cannot avoid the obvious, I reckon.

Edited August 25, 2009 by 3pugguy

[TGO David]

Mike... you are not the only person in TN to open carry. Just thought you should know you have fellow OC'ers out there! You are not alone and you are not crazy!

Scenario 1: Let's say you're putting your groceries in the car... bad guy comes up behind you, but notices you're carrying a gun and has a second thought about trying anything.

Scenario 2: Bad guy comes up behind you while you're bent over in your car (groceries again). you are not open carrying... therefore, he pulls a gun on you. Now WHAT in the WORLD are you going to do? lift your shirt and pull a gun while a gun is in your face or are you just going to hand over your wallet?

Senario 3: Bad guy comes up behind you while you're bent over in your car and grabs your gun out of it's holster (since you're open carrying) and then proceeds to really ruin your day.

Senario 4: Bad guy comes up behind you while you're bent over in your car and sees that you're open carrying. He decides to just pump a few rounds into you and steal your wallet, car, etc. rather than risk confronting you on equal footing.

[macville]

Senario 3: Bad guy comes up behind you while you're bent over in your car and grabs your gun out of it's holster (since you're open carrying) and then proceeds to really ruin your day.

Senario 4: Bad guy comes up behind you while you're bent over in your car and sees that you're open carrying. He decides to just pump a few rounds into you and steal your wallet, car, etc. rather than risk confronting you on equal footing.

I would like to point out that these two scenarios sound much like the "if we allow guns with alcohol, everyone will go crazy shooting" and "guns in our parks will have people shooting refs/coaches/parents at every game!" arguments. I have yet to see any news reports from across the country where either one of these scenarios have happened. I have see people talking about how they feel a crime wasn't committed because the would be criminal saw the gun and thought twice.

I'm not saying that might not happen, but it seems that most criminals are not only stupid, but tend to avoid people who can defend themselves as they don't want a fair fight.

Matthew