Knoxville PD apologizes for open carry incident in Wal-Mart

[Mark@Sea]

Qui potest capere capiat

[DaveTN]

you have a tough job dave,

No I don’t. My job is pretty easy compared to being a cop.

they do have leeway. they can give written warnings or verbal warnings, that is up to their discrection. as i stated before , not just a free pass with the flash of a badge.

My department did not then nor do they now issue warnings tickets; you get a ticket or you get a warning. I did not suggest that a “flash of the badge†would cause me to give someone a break. The people I said that I would not write a ticket on a minor infraction to I would recognize….. Especially my Mom.

</O:p

[dariks]

If it is alright or not I think it would depend on the severity of the violation. Simple speeding or a tail light would be ok. Graft, drunkeness, chicken fighting etc is not ok.

I figure then the next comment would be that there ought to be no slack at all for cops.

If a cop pulls you over for simple speeding or a tail light, should he not have the perogative to let you go if he chooses? If he does let you go are you going to demand he ticket you in fairness to others he has ticketed? It only makes sense to me that they have some leeway in how they deal with their kind.

Pretty much. I believe that those in authority (cops, politicians, etc..) should be held to a higher standard than ordinary citizens. Because their professions can have such large impacts on the rest, through the creation of laws or the enforcement of said laws, they should not be cut any slack.

In fact I would go so far as to say that the punishment for breaking the law should be more severe for these professions. I'm not talking about traffic tickets here, I'm talking about more serious stuff like a DUI for example. Whatever punishment an ordinary citizen would get for this crime should be doubled for those in authority.

[DaveTN]

We can't have it both ways. You can't appear to be letting other cops break the law and expect the general public to respect the law...after all, if the cops don't respect it, why should the citizenry at large?

If you have an "us vs. them" mentality then you will get an "us vs them" reaction from the public.

So if you brother Cool Hand Bob is a cop and I stop you for speeding and say “â€Aren’t you cool Hand Bobs brother Luke?â€, give you your license back and say “slow it down and have a nice day.â€. You going to get out and stomp your feet and demand that I write you a ticket?

If cops (or anyone) APPEAR to be taking advantage of their position then they will not be respected and will be reacted to with contempt. If someone appears to be polite and courteous he will usually be reacted to the same -at least by decent citizens. The criminals will still lie to you and try to kill you, but that is just what they do anyways.

Appear to who? That’s why I called on that website. Cops don’t go around bragging that they got stopped by a fellow Officer; they keep their mouths shut if it happens. They are BS stories man…

So if you let your buddies off for speeding but not the average joe then the average joe will become resentful to you. On the other hand apparently if you write tickets for EVERYONE -including cops and their mothers, then the cops will be resentful toward you. A no win situation I guess......

Cops are arrested everyday for serious offenses; it’s on the news here all the time.

Cops could write cops tickets all day long and nothing would change. Some people are resentful of anyone with any kind of authority whether it be a cop or their boss on the job; that will never change.

[molonlabetn]

I don't think that it's entirely unreasonable to express some 'professional courtesy'... But it does understandably skew the character of law-enforcement, in the mind of the public. Because, if cops let other cops off for minor infractions there is always the suspicion that more serious crimes behind the thin blue line might be minimized to avoid justice, meanwhile regular citizens are forced to bear the full weight of sometimes trump-up charges.

Perhaps to some minor degree what we are discussing is acceptable, but is still irrefutably a double-standard. The whole idea of giving certain people leeway above the law (or even any policy within a company), without some accountability, is never justifiable.

Realistically, I wouldn't even have as much a problem with a regulated system by which each officer was allotted a certain number of recorded 'passes' for minor infractions, to be dispensed at their discretion... at least then there would be some accountability. (I suppose this would be similar to a 'warning ticket'...)

[DaveTN]

In fact I would go so far as to say that the punishment for breaking the law should be more severe for these professions. I'm not talking about traffic tickets here, I'm talking about more serious stuff like a DUI for example. Whatever punishment an ordinary citizen would get for this crime should be doubled for those in authority.

It is worse for them and they are held to a higher standard. A cop at any department that I know of would be fired for DUI. Most employers wouldn’t fire you for DUI and many can’t fire you for DUI; they have to send you to drug and alcohol abuse counseling.

<O:p</O:p

I would have been arrested and fired if I had lied in a Grand Jury hearing. Apparently cops are held to higher standards than even the president.

</O:p

[dralarms]

:chill:

Good grief,

We went from talking about some guy who was treated badly to fighting with each other ON who should get a "free pass".

My goodness people, I'm one of the first to say that cops shouldn't get away with some of the stuff they are "accused" of.

But, I was stopped 64 in a 45, deputy asked me if I knew how fast I was going, nope, sure didn't, told him I was sorry and handed him my DL, HCP, insurance, and registration.

Went back to his patrol car, sat there about 2 or 3 min, came back gave me my stuff back, had me sign a "warning" ticket and told me to have a nice day. Now I was in the wrong and deserved the ticket but didn't get one.

Do I want him to stop the next guy and give him a ticket doing the same thing I was doing just because he is a cop and "shouldn't get away with it" or "held to a higher standard" Bull hockey.

I'm not saying there are not some instances that he should get a ticket BUT we are all created equal and have the same rights and are subject to the same restrictions and laws.

Shoot I used to get mad when I saw a cop barrel through town at 90 with out lights and sirens. Then I got more info (got a scanner and learned about the codes and stuff) and found out that MOST of the time they are responding to a situation that they don't want the bad guys to know they are coming.

Do I want to be a cop. NO!! most of the scumbags I know that are arrested around here would never make it to the cross bar hotel.

Could I qualify to be a cop. Probably. I'm in as good as shape as most of them in these parts and might even be able to out shoot them as long as I didn't have to carry a stupid glock.

No I have a lot of respect for law enforcement in the fact that they HAVE to make sure some scumbag that has just done some terrible act get to the booking station in 1 piece. I do not have that kind of will power. No sir. Especially if a child was involved.

Now I'm gonna sit back and get flamed.

[DaveTN]

I don't think that it's entirely unreasonable to express some 'professional courtesy'... But it does understandably skew the character of law-enforcement, in the mind of the public. Because, if cops let other cops off for minor infractions there is always the suspicion that more serious crimes behind the thin blue line might be minimized to avoid justice, meanwhile regular citizens are forced to bear the full weight of sometimes trump-up charges.

Perhaps to some minor degree what we are discussing is acceptable, but is still irrefutably a double-standard. The whole idea of giving certain people leeway above the law (or even any policy within a company), without some accountability, is never justifiable.

Realistically, I wouldn't even have as much a problem with a regulated system by which each officer was allotted a certain number of recorded 'passes' for minor infractions, to be dispensed at their discretion... at least then there would be some accountability. (I suppose this would be similar to a 'warning ticket'...)

Sure some people are going to get the wrong idea. Some will jump from a minor traffic offense to murder. That’s like saying that because we (the public) all drive with total disregard for the speed limits we would commit Burglary.

<O:p</O:p

There are bad cops, there are very bad cops. Why do you think I have offered my experiences of what to say and do to survive a traffic stop? I know cops that if you get in a pizzing match with them; you will go to jail and it will cost you thousands of dollars. I hope you never have to meet one, and I hope our discussions here will help you to realize what to say and do before it’s too late. It’s not right and it’s not fair; it’s life.

<O:p</O:p

But cops that don’t write minor traffic tickets to the guys they work with are not in that group.

<O:p</O:p

[Cruel Hand Luke]

So if you brother Cool Hand Bob is a cop and I stop you for speeding and say “â€Aren’t you cool Hand Bobs brother Luke?â€, give you your license back and say “slow it down and have a nice day.â€. You going to get out and stomp your feet and demand that I write you a ticket?

Appear to who? That’s why I called on that website. Cops don’t go around bragging that they got stopped by a fellow Officer; they keep their mouths shut if it happens. They are BS stories man…

Cops are arrested everyday for serious offenses; it’s on the news here all the time.

Cops could write cops tickets all day long and nothing would change. Some people are resentful of anyone with any kind of authority whether it be a cop or their boss on the job; that will never change.

No I would not demand a ticket. But I also would not "EXPECT" to get out of it either.

Stories? I was not referring to any website. I was referring to when people out in the public hear about cops avoiding tickets for speeding or avoiding parking tickets or whatever. It DOES happen. I know. My 2 best friends are cops. I majored in criminal justice in college. I know and have been around my fair share of cops and their families. Certain things occasionally get "fixed" or over looked BECAUSE cops look out for each other. But that is NOT unique to the LE profession though......I'm sure gas station attendants, garbage men and circus performers look out for each other too.....The issue though is that with cops it undermines public trust.The public percieves this as " If little stuff gets swept under the rug then does big stuff? I KNEW it! All cops are dirty!" And THAT perception becomes a real problem.

And some folks ARE definetly resentful of authority. In fact I really wondered whether the guy in the original post suffered from that affliction. I still have a hard time imagining that the original post situation was ALL the cop's fault. Almost always those situations are exacerbated by a smart ass who "knows his rights". (THAT DOES NOT MEAN I THINK YOU SHOULD NOT ASSERT YOUR RIGHTS. IT MEANS DON'T BE A SMART ASS ABOUT IT!)

[Marswolf]

And some folks ARE definetly resentful of authority. In fact I really wondered whether the guy in the original post suffered from that affliction.

I'm pretty good at figuring out what happened in situations based on pretty skimpy information. Sometimes it has to stew a while before the light bulb goes on. (How's that for a ****ed-up metaphor? ) I have a very strong feeling that the CC guy needs to do a lot of growing up. I'm betting that we would never be best buddies. I don't have a lot of use for mindless blowhards. That doesn't excuse the cop's lying, but explains how things got out of hand.

[jgrauman]

No I don’t. My job is pretty easy compared to being a cop.

My department did not then nor do they now issue warnings tickets; you get a ticket or you get a warning. I did not suggest that a “flash of the badge†would cause me to give someone a break. The people I said that I would not write a ticket on a minor infraction to I would recognize….. Especially my Mom.

</O:p

if you want to take this personally, then take it personally, i'm arguing a moral concern in law enforcement that obviously many citizens in this nation share. write a ticket, don't write a ticket, that's between you and your character and integrity, just don't respond to valid points on the subject with smart a$$ responses. debate the facts, and the facts are that the law enforecment profession is looked upon with great resentment due to its lack of character and overall stance on integrity for the position it holds in our society. Plane and simple. you can argue the small points of it all you want, be it writting your mother or pulling over a fellow LEO, the reason you feel you're being attacked is not due to the lack of LEO's on this forum or the greater number of "cop haters," it's due to the number of citizens that have a lack of respect for LEO's... the majority. I for one cannot sleep at night when i do a job and go home and think that maybe i should not have done that. and i'm just a lowly electrician.

[DaveTN]

if you want to take this personally, then take it personally, i'm arguing a moral concern in law enforcement that obviously many citizens in this nation share. write a ticket, don't write a ticket, that's between you and your character and integrity, just don't respond to valid points on the subject with smart a$$ responses. debate the facts, and the facts are that the law enforecment profession is looked upon with great resentment due to its lack of character and overall stance on integrity for the position it holds in our society. Plane and simple. you can argue the small points of it all you want, be it writting your mother or pulling over a fellow LEO, the reason you feel you're being attacked is not due to the lack of LEO's on this forum or the greater number of "cop haters," it's due to the number of citizens that have a lack of respect for LEO's... the majority. I for one cannot sleep at night when i do a job and go home and think that maybe i should not have done that. and i'm just a lowly electrician.

Wow…. It’s amazing how you can get that much information about how I feel. I don’t feel that I’m being attacked personally by anyone; how about we keep it that way?

<O:p</O:p

I’ve been having some fun with this thread that’s all. By my remarks being smart azz I’ll assume you mean the remark about ticking my mom? It wasn’t meant to be smart azz it was meant to show how ridiculous it is to say that any infractions involving cops should require a ticket.

<O:p</O:p

This isn’t worth getting upset about. Cops have discretion on writing tickets. The last thing you as a citizen want to see is that discretion taken away.

</O:p

[Marswolf]

Cops have discretion on writing tickets. The last thing you as a citizen want to see is that discretion taken away.

Very true. The public just doesn't want to see officers giving their buddies an automatic break for childish behavior. The term malfeasance comes to mind.

[jgrauman]

Cops have discretion on writing tickets. The last thing you as a citizen want to see is that discretion taken away.

</O:p

:doh:i understand that and wrote it twice in this thread. as long as the same discretion is given for everyone. are you seriously not getting the point here or are you just enjoying the back and forth with everyone?

[The Rabbi]

Cops give other cops a break. Not just on traffic stuff. Yes, they consider it no different than doctors not charging fees to others (a practice long gone btw). No, that is not correct for all the reasons pointed out.

Yes, it does inculcate an "above the law" mentality, and I have seen it expressed often. Head on over to the forum forums.officer.com and read some of what's there.

Yes, the vast majority of cops are hard-working professionals in a tough job. Yes, a very large number consider dirty cops a disgrace. But yes, the whole above the law attitude does breed in some people an ability to ignore more than traffic stops and think they can and should get away with much worse.

And I'll add that part of that "us vs them" mentality vis a vis the average citizen is the opposition on the part of some officers in other states to CCW.

[DaveTN]

:doh:i understand that and wrote it twice in this thread. as long as the same discretion is given for everyone. are you seriously not getting the point here or are you just enjoying the back and forth with everyone?

What do you want to hear man? Have you not read what I have posted? Do you want to hear me say that I would treat someone that is as close to me as my brother the same way I would treat you? Do you want to hear me say that I would stick it to him over a minor traffic ticket? Let me repeat this one more time….. Not in this lifetime.

I thoroughly understand that does not set well with you. If you want to questions my morals or Professional standards, if you think this makes me a criminal or the next logical step for a cop that would do this is manufacturing evidence or lying in court; so be it.

Maybe I’m slow and I’m not getting your point… what is it?

Same discretion for everyone? Fill me in on how that would work.

<O:p</O:p

[Guest Hyaloid]

What do you want to hear man? Have you not read what I have posted? Do you want to hear me say that I would treat someone that is as close to me as my brother the same way I would treat you? Do you want to hear me say that I would stick it to him over a minor traffic ticket? Let me repeat this one more time….. Not in this lifetime.

I thoroughly understand that does not set well with you. If you want to questions my morals or Professional standards, if you think this makes me a criminal or the next logical step for a cop that would do this is manufacturing evidence or lying in court; so be it.

Maybe I’m slow and I’m not getting your point… what is it?

Same discretion for everyone? Fill me in on how that would work.

<o></o>

Fairness under the law... what silliness that is, eh? There is a reason Lady Justice is blindfolded...

Oh, and Rabbi, I have 'professional courtesy' relationships with several other physicians and other professionals. It still exists.

[Marswolf]

Professional courtesy is something someone with professional shills does to barter their services. It has nothing to do with letting others ignore laws. That's not professional courtesy, it's unprofessional behavior. It should be criminal behavior.

As I said over in another forum, I really don't think I can be reasonably accused of being anti-cop. I think of myself as a strong supporter of professional law enforcement. But because of what I do, I know what police can and can not achieve. I can also differentiate between professional behavior and non-professional behavior - something that an awful lot of cops can't seem to fathom. I am as critical of LE as I am the military guys I work with. That's how it should be. I just don't have the authority to properly discipline bad cops. If I had my way, we would fire the yahoos in the departments who do not act professionally and double the salary of the good officers who are left.

And a cop in Kansas City agreed with me.

[DaveTN]

Professional courtesy is something someone with professional shills does to barter their services. It has nothing to do with letting others ignore laws. That's not professional courtesy, it's unprofessional behavior. It should be criminal behavior.

You are correct it is not “professional courtesyâ€.

Criminal behavior?? Keep in mind that we are talking here about a cop not writing another cop on a minor traffic violation. You want to make him a criminal for that but still have the discretion to let you go?

<O:p</O:p

[The Rabbi]

You are correct it is not “professional courtesyâ€.

Criminal behavior?? Keep in mind that we are talking here about a cop not writing another cop on a minor traffic violation. You want to make him a criminal for that but still have the discretion to let you go?

<o></o>

As with most things, it depends.

If the cop would let the law breaker go in other circumstances then it is perfectly OK to let him go on this as well.

But if the law breaker has 3 DUIs and a long history of accidents, is there an officer in the world who would let him get off? So why should it be any different with an LEO?

[saintsfanbrian]

My point is this, if it is okay to let a police officer go on a speeding ticket, or tail light or running a stop sign etc. Then it should be okay to let EVERYONE go on the same infraction. I understand the camaraderie associated with being a police officer. I respect the job that you do and at one time wanted to do it myself. But as I can't express often enough CHARACTER IS DOING THE RIGHT THING WHEN NO ONE IS LOOKING (thank you Mr. Watts.) So think of that the next time you right ANYONE a ticket for speeding. Is this something I would let another police officer or family member get away with. If it is, don't write the ticket. If it isn't write the ticket. Or conversely and this is what I and many other people would prefer. If you stop one of your officer buddies or their family members or your family member, think is this something I would write ANYONE else a ticket for. If the answer is yes, write the ticket.

That would go a long way to proving to the rest of us civilians (I hate the use of that word when it comes to police vs. citizens) that there is no disparity between a law ENFORCEMENT officer and the rest of us ORDINARY folks.

Thanks and have a great day.

[Marswolf]

Criminal behavior?? Keep in mind that we are talking here about a cop not writing another cop on a minor traffic violation. You want to make him a criminal for that but still have the discretion to let you go?

The question is not discretion to let everyone go. The question is giving some people purposeful special leeway because they are in the same profession as the person who caught them. Yes, I think that should be criminal behavior. It's just a matter of treating everyone the same. There is just no public purpose served in letting LEOs get by with a crime you would ticket or arrest someone for who is not a LEO. I think there is a good public purpose in not allowing it.

[Branket]

Man LEO's get all the breaks, why do I have to be an Aries...

[TGO David]

Man LEO's get all the breaks, why do I have to be an Aries...

Subtle humor.

[saintsfanbrian]

Lost on too many people I'm afraid.