Knoxville PD apologizes for open carry incident in Wal-Mart

[molonlabetn]

My Police Officer Friends maneuvered with me in pursuits over 100 <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>MPH</st1:stockticker>, they had my back on family fights, man with a gun calls and traffic stops, their response time could be the deciding factor of whether I lived or died on an Officer needs assistance call. Now… I know this won’t be very popular but would I write one of those guys on a simple speeding charge? Not in this life time.

<O:p</O:p

That didn’t apply to other cops that I didn’t know though.

<O:p</O:p

I understand that reasoning/mentality, though I do not agree with its principle. Because, by that reasoning, noone should ever hold a LEO accountable for their actions if they ever want to receive quality service from them.

LEOs are people too, regular civilians with a high-risk job dealing with troublemakers and screw-ups... But that doesn't mean that they have earned the right to a free pass above the law, themselves. It is simply evidence of the poor mentality fostered within the ranks when some do and say things like what we are discussing. I don't want the job of law-enforcement made more difficult, I simply want it done correctly. If it is difficult to do correctly, then we need different people in management or in the boots on the ground.

[Marswolf]

This gets back to that professionalism thing I've talked about. I know a lot of LEOs who speed and do other stuff specifically because they know they will get away with it if caught. That's not professional, and should not be accepted as the norm by other LEOs. Everyone should be treated equally.

While a lot (most) LEOs think it's pretty neat to get away with stuff like this, I still claim that it degrades the profession in the eyes of the public and good officers, causes resentment and disrespect for LEOs, and leads to lower pay in the field because behavior like this causes a perception that it is not a professional position.

I am a strong supporter of professional law enforcement. I'm just not willing to ignore the yahoos who are in the profession and fail to live up to professional standards. Letting your buddies get away with doing things the public would be ticketed for is not acting professionally. Sorry.

[molonlabetn]

I couldn't get away with acting less than professional/responsible, and maintain my job or my carry permit... And I don't stand for it from anyone else.

[saintsfanbrian]

So, should a loan manager give one of his buddies a better rate on a mortgage even if his credit isn't up to snuff?

This all goes to being professional and having character. If you truly have character, you will not ACCEPT the lack of a ticket from a fellow police officer. If you have character, you will not have to worry about bad things catching up with you because there won't be any.

Is it legal / within guidelines for police officers to accept free meals from restaurants or free donuts? I could be wrong, but I don't think it is. This is along the same lines as NOT giving a fellow officer (or their family member) a ticket when you catch them doing something wrong. If you give or accept the free ride, you are doing something wrong unless you never write ANYONE a ticket.

[Mike.357]

I know this won’t be very popular but would I write one of those guys on a simple speeding charge? Not in this life time.

I do not think a reasonable person would argue with you for that line of thought.

<O:p</O:p

That didn’t apply to other cops that I didn’t know though.

Proving you are a reasonable person too!

A also agree that not everyone on that cop website is in the business.

if someone isn't doing something to jeopardize public safety enough to be taken to jail, that they should be ignored.

And that might assume that common sense is common. It is to simple and definitely cuts of the flow of income. Bottom line is always about money.

Also as far as this story goes, the only side we have heard in person is from Colt. I would be interested in the cops side of the story, though going into it to be honest, I would be skeptical. The truth is the simplest story to believe.

I think a better parallel than loans or donuts would be doctors seeing each other professionally at no charge. Or club golf pros getting to play at other country clubs for free.

Keep in mind I am agreeing with Dave's manner of dealing this out. Not a free pass to do what ever the heck you want to do.

Dave, in your estimation how often does a LEO get away with something more serious than speeding because of his badge? How prevelent would even the free pass on speeding be?

Somewhere around here I have a "get out of Jail " free card I got from some connected guy when I lived near Chicago. It had the CPD logo on it and supposedly was real. I never had the oppurtunity to need it. But I was told that it would be useful in not getting a traffic ticket or maybe getting a ride home instead of a DUI. I have no reason to think it was not real, as idiotic as that sounds.<O:p</O:p<!-- / message -->

[jgrauman]

While a lot (most) LEOs think it's pretty neat to get away with stuff like this, I still claim that it degrades the profession in the eyes of the public and good officers, causes resentment and disrespect for LEOs, and leads to lower pay in the field because behavior like this causes a perception that it is not a professional position.

I have many friends in law enforcement and one who is a friend of a friend. he in particular absolutely lowers my respect for them. He's a big drinker and when i've gone out with him he loves to get in to trouble just so he can pull out his badge and say "it's okay, i'm a cop." it drives me crazy. another who is actually a friend of mine only goes to bars that hook him up with drinks and has let off our friends on things that anyone else would have gone to jail for. So since we've been talking about statistics, that's two of six that i know personally. So 1 in 3 cops abuse their position

[DaveTN]

I do not think a reasonable person would argue with you for that line of thought.

look at the posts above. Just for the record I wouldn't write my Mom a ticket either.

[DaveTN]

I couldn't get away with acting less than professional/responsible, and maintain my job or my carry permit... And I don't stand for it from anyone else.

What is your job?

[jgrauman]

look at the posts above. Just for the record I wouldn't write my Mom a ticket either.

im not arguing that line of thought either dave. if my friend has had my back then damn right i'm going to have his. but breaking the law, be it speeding or anything else, is breaking the law. you want to write them a warning or give them a verbal one on the record then so be it, as long as you do that for everyone else in the same situations. your job does not grant you the right to break the law.

I couldn't get away with acting less than professional/responsible, and maintain my job or my carry permit... And I don't stand for it from anyone else.

What is your job?

i run my own company as an electrician. if i don't act professionally i don't get business. if i employ people that don't act professionally or do their jobs correctly, if i let them slide on following the rules, houses burn down, people get hurt. last october my best friends dad was driving home the weekend before her wedding and was t boned by a trooper doing 90, not on a call, the guy had to be wheeled down the aisle to give his daughter away. I'm just saying, those rules are for all of us, your JOB does not entitle you to break them.

[Guest Hyaloid]

/snip

I think a better parallel than loans or donuts would be doctors seeing each other professionally at no charge. Or club golf pros getting to play at other country clubs for free.

/snip

<!-- / message -->

That's called exchange of services and is perfectly acceptable. No professional is giving the other a pass on breaking the law.

The doctor's essentially recognize that it would be silly to exchange cash in each other's practice, and cut out the middle man. At no point would either of the doctors be breaking the law. I think it is a horrible parallel, and that LEOs should be held to the same standard as the common citizen.

[dariks]

<!-- / message --> I think a better parallel than loans or donuts would be doctors seeing each other professionally at no charge. Or club golf pros getting to play at other country clubs for free.

Doctors and golf pros are not in positions of authority over the citizenry, so that's not a very valid comparison.

[molonlabetn]

What is your job?

I'm a dod contractor.

(means I have no life)

[Marswolf]

I'm operations and advisory staff for my favorite uncle.

What difference does it make? Is there an implication that you have to be licensed to kill to have a reasonable grasp of this issue?

[DaveTN]

What difference does it make? Is there an implication that you have to be licensed to kill to have a reasonable grasp of this issue?

Nope, didn’t imply that at all. I just wondered if some of those that are so critical of law enforcement were in any kind of occupation where they may have to make those types of decisions.

<O:p</O:p

What I’m saying openly is that if you were a Police Officer and you stopped an Officer that you work with on a simple speeding violation; they is no way on God’s green earth you would write him a ticket. I’m not saying cops are above the law (has nothing to do with it) and I guess my professional standards are seriously lacking but to suggest that you would write a cop you work with for a minor infraction is ridiculous.

<O:p</O:p

Your running radar and your Mom blows through at 15 over. You going write her also? GMAFB.

<O:p</O:p

[Mark@Sea]

Dave, I'm just a simple sailor... but first time a shipmate is intentionally screwing around in a manner that endangers others, he gets a reaming. Second time, he's on the beach looking for a job. Too many ways to get hurt, or get someone else hurt out here.

A minor infraction is a burned out tail-light. Speeds well over the limit, running red lights and stop signs, etc. - those I'd consider to be endangering the public. Why do LEO's make a habit of it? Because they count on getting away with it.

Hey, if they are immune to traffic violations, then whats' wrong with violating a civil right here and there - only a little bit, of course, and 'in the course of duty'. Its' okay, they won't get in trouble for it. After all, they're cops - if they can't bend the law, who can, right?

Had a bad day, took it out on a 'suspect'? Well, hell, he's guilty or he wouldn't be a suspect. Besides, it was just this once, not like its' a real big deal.

I'd guess most criminals don't start out with big crimes. They start out small.... to be precise, they start out by lying to themselves to excuse their own actions.

But as I said, I'm just a sailor. What would I know about professional standards for LEO's - and I am so in favor of giving someone who sees nothing wrong in a little lie here and there a job with huge potential for abuse of fellow citizens.

[Marswolf]

A appreciate the honest answer, Dave. The reason cops look the other way when cops break the law is just because that's the way it's done. But if someone changed the unofficial rules to where cops didn't look the other way, I think LEOs would be respected more by the public and the city and county commissions that determine their salary. I think there is a price paid for looking the other way.

[Mike.357]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by Mike.357

<!-- / message -->I think a better parallel than loans or donuts would be doctors seeing each other professionally at no charge. Or club golf pros getting to play at other country clubs for free.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Doctors and golf pros are not in positions of authority over the citizenry, so that's not a very valid comparison.

Speaking of professional courtesy it certainly is. And doctors and golf pros do hold positions of authority. How many doctors hold the key to healing someone where a bad diagnosis could hurt more, and have you ever tried to get a tee time before? Golf pros hold the keys

[DaveTN]

I'd guess most criminals don't start out with big crimes. They start out small.... to be precise, they start out by lying to themselves to excuse their own actions.

Okay… you are probly right. Using the discretion given to you under state law will probably lead to violating peoples rights and then on to murder. (See how ridiculous than sounds when you read it?)

<O:p</O:p

I don’t think I can be accused of lying to myself or anyone else. I'm being bluntly honest; the fact that you don’t agree doesn’t make it a lie.

<O:p</O:p

Hey... don’t think I’m getting pizzed off and don’t get pizzed off at me. This forum is seriously lacking in LEO’s. I have not seen anyone other than me that has posted that they are or were a full time Police Officer that works the streets. Maybe I missed them or maybe they just don’t want to voice an opinion. How interesting would these threads be if all the cop haters just posted their BS stories without someone to calling ….

And Mark I'm not saying you are a cop hater; but there are plenty here that are more than willing to slam the cops after hearing one side of a story or just not having a clue of what they are talking about.

[dariks]

This forum is seriously lacking in LEO’s. I have not seen anyone other than me that has posted that they are or were a full time Police Officer that works the streets. Maybe I missed them or maybe they just don’t want to voice an opinion. How interesting would these threads be if all the cop haters just posted their BS stories without someone to calling ….

I don't know how one would go about spreading word of this site to LEO's other than word of mouth or posting on a LEO forum. So spread the word.

[dariks]

Speaking of professional courtesy it certainly is. And doctors and golf pros do hold positions of authority. How many doctors hold the key to healing someone where a bad diagnosis could hurt more, and have you ever tried to get a tee time before? Golf pros hold the keys

From a professional courtesy viewpoint you are correct. But cops giving other cops a free ride is a whole other ballgame. If a doctor waives his fee as a professional courtesy to another doctor, no laws are broken. If a cop decides not to arrest another cop or decides to waive a ticket, a law has still been broken.

[jgrauman]

How interesting would these threads be if all the cop haters just posted their BS stories without someone to calling …. [/size][/font]

And Mark I'm not saying you are a cop hater; but there are plenty here that are more than willing to slam the cops after hearing one side of a story or just not having a clue of what they are talking about.[/size][/size]

"BS stories" and "cop haters" hmmm "not having a clue of what they are talking about" so since we aren't cops we don't have a clue? this is about character and integrity, not being a cop. you have a tough job dave, but it's a job. you are an employee that has rules he should abide by, unfortunetly it's a high profile job that is under a lot of scrutiny due to the lack of integrity that some cops show, a lot of the time, in the open. i'm not a cop hater, as i said, i have 5 friends that i grew up with who are cops and i don't hate them nor do i hate their profession. but because of situations that have been mentioned, and your honest statements of letting your fellow officer friends off, your profession will continue to be under scrutiny for such actions and will never gain the respect of us "ordinary citizens."

[Mark@Sea]

Dave,

I don't think of myself as a 'cop hater'. Nor do I think of myself as a cop respector. Cops are in no wise special except for the fact that they can arbitrarily impose anything from a hard time to huge fines and fees, to death on fellow citizens, and get away with it. This would imply a certain level of responsibility to go with the authority, don't you think? Other career fields face similiar hazards, without the benefits of being able to shoot back, and having qualified immunity when they do so.

I'm guessing your oath said nothing about impartially upholding the law, so extending special privilege to fellow officers and Mom were okay. We're all just happy that cops never cause traffic accidents. Especially accidents involving fatalities among civilians who just happened to get in the way. Because, you know, that wouldn't be merely a tragedy, it would be an outrage.

I'm not angry at all. I was just pointing out some apparent inconsistencies between authority and integrity with some officers. If the manner in which I phrased it upset you, I apologize. The phrasing isn't really meant to be sarcastic, rather it is meant to highlight the difference between your paradigm ("Its' okay to not enforce the law when dealing with another officer") and the reality that the rest of us face. Couldn't think of a better way to draw your attention to the difference.

Just something to think about, is all...

[Mike.357]

If a cop decides not to arrest another cop or decides to waive a ticket, a law has still been broken.

If it is alright or not I think it would depend on the severity of the violation. Simple speeding or a tail light would be ok. Graft, drunkeness, chicken fighting etc is not ok.

I figure then the next comment would be that there ought to be no slack at all for cops.

If a cop pulls you over for simple speeding or a tail light, should he not have the perogative to let you go if he chooses? If he does let you go are you going to demand he ticket you in fairness to others he has ticketed? It only makes sense to me that they have some leeway in how they deal with their kind.

[jgrauman]

If it is alright or not I think it would depend on the severity of the violation. Simple speeding or a tail light would be ok. Graft, drunkeness, chicken fighting etc is not ok.

I figure then the next comment would be that there ought to be no slack at all for cops.

If a cop pulls you over for simple speeding or a tail light, should he not have the perogative to let you go if he chooses? If he does let you go are you going to demand he ticket you in fairness to others he has ticketed? It only makes sense to me that they have some leeway in how they deal with their kind.

they do have leeway. they can give written warnings or verbal warnings, that is up to their discrection. as i stated before

you want to write them a warning or give them a verbal one on the record then so be it, as long as you do that for everyone else in the same situations.

, not just a free pass with the flash of a badge.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

The issue though is the percieved inequality. Some pigs are more eqaul than others I guess. (NO that is not a cop joke....read the book). When citizens feel cops see themselves as above the law then there are problems. This is just simple human nature.

We can't have it both ways. You can't appear to be letting other cops break the law and expect the general public to respect the law...after all, if the cops don't respect it, why should the citizenry at large?

If you have an "us vs. them" mentality then you will get an "us vs them" reaction from the public.You can't logically complain about citizens not respecting cops if cops act in a way that breeds disrespect from the average citizen. Just like a citizen can't complain for being treated like a criminal if he acts like a jackass to the cop.

If cops (or anyone) APPEAR to be taking advantage of their position then they will not be respected and will be reacted to with contempt. If someone appears to be polite and courteous he will usually be reacted to the same -at least by decent citizens. The criminals will still lie to you and try to kill you, but that is just what they do anyways.

So if you let your buddies off for speeding but not the average joe then the average joe will become resentful to you. On the other hand apparently if you write tickets for EVERYONE -including cops and their mothers, then the cops will be resentful toward you.

A no win situation I guess......