Knoxville PD apologizes for open carry incident in Wal-Mart

[Mark@Sea]

http://www.copswritingcops.com/dotm/oct2006/index.html

Mars, I try, I really do, but it is getting a little harder every day.

[Mike.357]

Mark, what is that link supposed to be for?

I read several of the postings and to me it seemed that they were all crying that they got a speeding ticket or whatever and were nto let off the hook because they were associated with cops or being cops themselves.

Should they get special consideration?

Am I missing something here?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

I took it to mean he is tired of the police officers who think they are above the law. But that is just my guess. I may be COMPLETELY wrong. Just my guess with the limited amount of info posted.

[molonlabetn]

http://www.copswritingcops.com/dotm/oct2006/index.html

Mars, I try, I really do, but it is getting a little harder every day.

Awww... da' po' widdol poweece awfissus feewings ah huwt!

[saintsfanbrian]

That site is incredible. I am curious as to why an off duty police officer or the family members of police officers deserve SPECIAL treatment when it comes to breaking the law. Even one as trivial as speeding. If you cannot uphold the laws you swear to defend then you shouldn't be defending them. I am not a police officer, but I would like to think that if I were I would not ABUSE my POWER by expecting and giving special treatment under the law.

It is this exact mentality that creates an us versus them situation between "regular" citizens and the police officers that are there to "serve and protect."

Okay - I read some more and I am really perturbed that Police officers feel this way when they receive a citation for doing something that they likely have written a hundred citations for. Why should you be any different? Why should I expect less from you than I do from an average citizen. This actually makes me want to become a police officer just so I can express this to my fellow officers.

As J.C. Watts said "Character is doing the right thing when nobody is looking." Well guess what officers, when it comes to you and the law EVERYONE is ALWAYS looking. You should NOT get special treatment. Is your job dangerous? Sure, then again, you chose it.

[Mark@Sea]

Yeah, Luke. Kind of hard to maintain any semblence of respect for cops who effectively are 'above the law' most of the time - and apparently regard it as some sort of job perk.

The idea that the permit holder that this thread began about is some sort of cowboy or punk just falls too neatly into the 'if you can't beat the facts, attack the accuser' category. It sounds, in fact, exactly like the kind of noise coming out of St. George - the kid is an attention whore, is 'setting up' cops to look bad, yada yada yada.

Sorry to burst the bubble, but these days, cops don't need any outside help, they're doing quite well making themselves look bad, and it extends far beyond traffic violations. Law enforcement has a systemic problem, and they aren't nearly aggressive enough in policing themselves. LEO's can't afford even the perception that 'cops get a free pass' without severely undermining the public trust. LEO's really can't afford an 'Us and Them' mentality, yet they foster it themselves!

Increasingly, 'Them' isn't criminals, or drug dealers, it is John and Suzy Public. An 80 year old lady in Atlanta. A teenage kid in Missouri. A young female bartender in Chicago.

A law-abiding permit holder in Knoxville.

The excuses are getting pretty thin.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Hard to argue with a website ostensibly devoted to "horror stories" about cops getting tickets from other cops. How tragic....

BUT....We don't make the situation any better when we (as armed citizens) get confrontational when we encounter police. The point I was making earlier about OC was that IN MY EXPERIENCE most who open carry seem to have an "It's my right and you can't do anything about it" chip on their shoulder.

***** AND AGAIN...If that does not apply to those reading this then this is not directed at those reading.*****

If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard someone at a gunshow or a gunshop or on the phone at work go on and on about how they would "put the cop in their place" and how the" cops work for them " and how "no jack booted thug would disarm them", I'd have A LOT more dollars than I have now....

These guys who open carry to draw attention and then argue with the cop DO NOT help us. Be respectful, be courteous and then call Internal Affairs and file a complaint if that is warranted or call an attorney. Don't tell the guy he doesn't know what he is talking about and exacerbate the situation....But in MY EXPERIENCE if no one sees it to begin with there is no issue to be dealt with. I carry 365 days a year. I carry to protect my family, me, loved ones and MAYBE depending on circumstances third parties who are in imminent danger. I don't carry to make a political statement. I don't carry to "be cool". I don't carry to make people think I'm a bad ass. In fact I don't want ANYONE to even give me a second look.

When I am out in public I look like just your average big guy (6' 240) who probably used to wrestle or play football and who probably still lifts weights.I'm usually dressed kinda preppy (untucked polo shirt and jeans or cargo shorts) no "insured by Smith and Wesson" or "Glock Perfection" clothing. No visible gun. No visible spare mag. No visible second gun. No visible knife. No visible Fox labs pepper spray. No visible blow out kit. All that stuff is covered up and I look like everyone else.

And you know something? Cops don't come single me out to talk to. I've been pulled over 5 times ever. Only 2 of those asked if I had a gun in the car. I just don't fit the profile, I'm courteous and I don't start arguments. I know my lawyer will do a lot more damage than my arguing with the officer will. It is knowing WHEN and HOW to get your point across.

So back to our original post in this thread. What do you HONESTLY think the bystanders who saw this thought? Did they think "Hmm that cop is a dumbass and the guy is right" or did they think "what is that guy's problem with the gun on his hip. I hope he's not a danger to us. I hope the cop gets this under control."

I'm NOT against the right to open carry. I am against open carry WITH AN ATTITUDE and against open carry without using common sense. And I may be wrong but I have a hard time swallowing the "he forgot to untuck his shirt". I can't remember ever being out in public and NOT knowing whether I was carrying openly or not.........I just pay attention like that....

[Guest Hyaloid]

Hard to argue with a website ostensibly devoted to "horror stories" about cops getting tickets from other cops. How tragic....

BUT....We don't make the situation any better when we (as armed citizens) get confrontational when we encounter police. The point I was making earlier about OC was that IN MY EXPERIENCE most who open carry seem to have an "It's my right and you can't do anything about it" chip on their shoulder.

***** AND AGAIN...If that does not apply to those reading this then this is not directed at those reading.*****

If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard someone at a gunshow or a gunshop or on the phone at work go on and on about how they would "put the cop in their place" and how the" cops work for them " and how "no jack booted thug would disarm them", I'd have A LOT more dollars than I have now....

These guys who open carry to draw attention and then argue with the cop DO NOT help us. Be respectful, be courteous and then call Internal Affairs and file a complaint if that is warranted or call an attorney. Don't tell the guy he doesn't know what he is talking about and exacerbate the situation....But in MY EXPERIENCE if no one sees it to begin with there is no issue to be dealt with. I carry 365 days a year. I carry to protect my family, me, loved ones and MAYBE depending on circumstances third parties who are in imminent danger. I don't carry to make a political statement. I don't carry to "be cool". I don't carry to make people think I'm a bad ass. In fact I don't want ANYONE to even give me a second look.

When I am out in public I look like just your average big guy (6' 240) who probably used to wrestle or play football and robably still lifts weights.I'm usually dressed kinda preppy (untucked polo shirt and jeans or cargo shorts) no "insured by Smith and Wesson or Glock Perfection clothing. No visible gun. No visible spare mag. No visible second gun. No visible knife. No visible Fox labs pepper spray. No visible blow out kit. All that stuff is covered up and I look like everyone else.

And you know something? Cops don't come single me out to talk to. I've been puled over 5 times ever. Only 2 of those asked if I had a gun in the car. I just don't fit the profile, I'm courteous and I don't start arguments. I know my lawyer will do a lot morre damage than my arguing with the officer will. It is knowing WHEN and HOW to get your point across.

So back to our original post. What do you HONESTLY think the bystanders who saw this thought? Did they think "Hmm that cop is a dumbass and the guy is right" or did they think "what is that guy's problem with the gun on his hip. I hope he's not a danger to us. I hope the cop gets this under control."

I'm NOT against the right to open carry. I am against open carry WITH AN ATTITUDE and against open carry without using common sense. And I may be wrong but I have a hard time swallowing the "he forgot to untuck his shirt". I can't remember ever being out in public and NOT knowing whether I was carrying openly or not.........I just pay attention like that....

I knew we agreed more than we disagreed. Nice post. I think unless we were there, it is truly hard to know who was being an arse, and Marswolf is probably right, and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

BUT, even though I definitely would not advocate it, even if the 'victim' was being a jerk, that doesn't give the LEO any right to return in kind or threaten the power of the police to make up charges.

That old saying, 'You catch more flies with honey....' , and being professional, sincere, and nonconfrontational is the way to go. But, that is a two way street, and abuse of power is inexcusable.

[TGO David]

BUT, even though I definitely would not advocate it, even if the 'victim' was being a jerk, that doesn't give the LEO any right to return in kind or threaten the power of the police to make up charges.

That old saying, 'You catch more flies with honey....' , and being professional, sincere, and nonconfrontational is the way to go. But, that is a two way street, and abuse of power is inexcusable.

If this ColtCCO kid was being an a-hole to the cop, then the cop may have succumbed to human nature and gotten irritated by it ... which lead to those comments being made. I can't even fathom the amount of B.S. that the police probably have to put up with in a given day and I'd probably have a hard time keeping that professional edge 24/7 myself under the right (wrong) circumstances.

The kid is probably very lucky that he didn't get the Maglite to the head.

[saintsfanbrian]

Wow, this thread sure is shifting. From an original outcry of police brutality to the kid is lucky he didn't get worse. Remember, it is the officers RESPONSIBILITY to maintain professionalism at all times regardless of what is said to him. As long as the kid wasn't assaulting him physically, there was no real reason to use such force to subdue him. I don't care if he called the cops mother a transvestite wildabeast from planet 9. If coltCCO placed his hands on the officer, then all bets are off. As long as he was complying with "lawful orders" everything else is trivial.

If police officer J told me to keep my hands in plain site and I did and then he asked me to get something out of my pocket, and I did, and he then started grabbing me and forcing me up against a wall, you bet I would be pissed. Then again, while we do not have a mandatory concealed clause on our carry permit, I have rethought my stance on open carrying and think it is best if the only people that know I am armed are the ones that need to know. Me and my wife. Hell half the time she doesn't even know.

[Marswolf]

I'd love to see the videos of this incident.

And I'm not surprised about the whining site that you referenced, Mark. Unfortunately, there are a lot of cops who speed and do other stuff, "just because I can." That's why I keep hammering home the idea of LEOs acting professionally. Behavior like that displayed on that page is not in keeping with the idea of professionalism. LE is supposed to be a position of service, not special privilege.

But I couldn't be a cop. Eventually someone would put together that all of the ****-bags who disappeared were on my shift and that I know how to hide bodies so that even cadaver dogs can't find them.

[TGO David]

Wow, this thread sure is shifting. From an original outcry of police brutality to the kid is lucky he didn't get worse. Remember, it is the officers RESPONSIBILITY to maintain professionalism at all times regardless of what is said to him.

I was joking. I think if it were my JOB to maintain professionalism in spite of assclownery, I could pull it off. I might go home and kick the cat at the end of my shift, but I'd pull it off.

Since I'm not in that situation it's easier to just say that I have heard from reputable sources that a 6-cell Maglite makes an excellent persuasive device.

"Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

[saintsfanbrian]

I'd love to see the videos of this incident.

I know how to hide bodies so that even cadaver dogs can't find them.

That's because you grind them up and turn them in to dog food for cadaver dogs.

[saintsfanbrian]

I was joking. I think if it were my JOB to maintain

"Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!"

I knew you were, but the general sentiment has changed some what on this thread.

[Mark@Sea]

Mars, I wish it were otherwise, but 'bad cop' stuff is so common these days that even in situations such as the Florida jacka.... err, student who was tazed, the immediate supposition is that the cops went overboard.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing the video either. Meanwhile, I'd be very careful about accepting character references from KPD. As the offending officer was the only one there at the start, where do you suppose they are getting their information?

[Marswolf]

The basic facts don't seem to be in dispute. And I'm sure that much of the brotherhood will close ranks around the officer - at least officially. But cops really don't care much for ****-heads in their ranks. I'll bet he's gone from KPD within a year. He'll probably be teaching at some gun school in...well, never mind.

[towerclimber37]

The basic facts don't seem to be in dispute. And I'm sure that much of the brotherhood will close ranks around the officer - at least officially. But cops really don't care much for ****-heads in their ranks. I'll bet he's gone from KPD within a year. He'll probably be teaching at some gun school in...well, never mind.

ahahahahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

ROFLMAO

[saintsfanbrian]

Wrongedy Wrong Wrong, Mars.

[DaveTN]

http://www.copswritingcops.com/dotm/oct2006/index.html

Mars, I try, I really do, but it is getting a little harder every day.

A Cops writing Cops website…. Give me a break; you guys can’t be falling for those stories…can you? It sure does happen but those guys writing those stories aren’t cops. They are cop haters getting exactly the reaction they want.

<O:p</O:p

I read the first story and I can say that if a cop called me to ask why I wrote his wife a ticket I would surely tell him. But if he told me he expected a break because he was a cop; he would have been embarrassed and had his feelings hurt, especially if anyone was around to hear it.

<O:p</O:p

But it works both ways… I gave citizens breaks all the time…. everyday. I’ll be dammed though if someone was going to tell me I’m required to write a ticket to someone because they are a cop or they are related to a cop.

<O:p</O:p

A real cop would also know that it wouldn’t do any good to talk to his PBA rep; they have noting to do with stuff like that.

<O:p</O:p

[Mike.357]

He'll probably be teaching at some gun school in...well, never mind.

Thats funny for sure, lol

As for cops giving each other a break isn't that the premise of all the people with FOP stickers on their cars or them little badge things adhered to their license plates?<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[saintsfanbrian]

Dave,

I am not saying that you are REQUIRED to write a ticket to a cop or their family. All I am saying is that as a cop you shouldn't EXPECT to NOT get a ticket.

Perk or not, Police officers should be held to the SAME or HIGHER standard as regular citizen. Preferably just the SAME standard and if you as a police officer write me a ticket for going 20 over the limit and one of your police officer friends does the exact same thing, you should write him a ticket too.

[Guest looneeetunes]

Hard to argue with a website ostensibly devoted to "horror stories" about cops getting tickets from other cops. How tragic....

BUT....We don't make the situation any better when we (as armed citizens) get confrontational when we encounter police. The point I was making earlier about OC was that IN MY EXPERIENCE most who open carry seem to have an "It's my right and you can't do anything about it" chip on their shoulder.

***** AND AGAIN...If that does not apply to those reading this then this is not directed at those reading.*****

If I had a dollar for everytime I've heard someone at a gunshow or a gunshop or on the phone at work go on and on about how they would "put the cop in their place" and how the" cops work for them " and how "no jack booted thug would disarm them", I'd have A LOT more dollars than I have now....

These guys who open carry to draw attention and then argue with the cop DO NOT help us. Be respectful, be courteous and then call Internal Affairs and file a complaint if that is warranted or call an attorney. Don't tell the guy he doesn't know what he is talking about and exacerbate the situation....But in MY EXPERIENCE if no one sees it to begin with there is no issue to be dealt with. I carry 365 days a year. I carry to protect my family, me, loved ones and MAYBE depending on circumstances third parties who are in imminent danger. I don't carry to make a political statement. I don't carry to "be cool". I don't carry to make people think I'm a bad ass. In fact I don't want ANYONE to even give me a second look.

When I am out in public I look like just your average big guy (6' 240) who probably used to wrestle or play football and who probably still lifts weights.I'm usually dressed kinda preppy (untucked polo shirt and jeans or cargo shorts) no "insured by Smith and Wesson" or "Glock Perfection" clothing. No visible gun. No visible spare mag. No visible second gun. No visible knife. No visible Fox labs pepper spray. No visible blow out kit. All that stuff is covered up and I look like everyone else.

And you know something? Cops don't come single me out to talk to. I've been pulled over 5 times ever. Only 2 of those asked if I had a gun in the car. I just don't fit the profile, I'm courteous and I don't start arguments. I know my lawyer will do a lot more damage than my arguing with the officer will. It is knowing WHEN and HOW to get your point across.

So back to our original post in this thread. What do you HONESTLY think the bystanders who saw this thought? Did they think "Hmm that cop is a dumbass and the guy is right" or did they think "what is that guy's problem with the gun on his hip. I hope he's not a danger to us. I hope the cop gets this under control."

I'm NOT against the right to open carry. I am against open carry WITH AN ATTITUDE and against open carry without using common sense. And I may be wrong but I have a hard time swallowing the "he forgot to untuck his shirt". I can't remember ever being out in public and NOT knowing whether I was carrying openly or not.........I just pay attention like that....

i agree also with you. i live about 20 miles from where this guy works and i have seen him and talked to him several times. i dont think this was his mentality. i also back the right to carry openly, but like yourself i dont do it often. i am kinda a big guy also 6 foot 2 280. i guess i look a little mean, but in reality i am getting to much artheritis and too stove up for a fight anymore:eek:. i have four kids from 24 months to 13 yrs old, they, and my wife, and to protect myself are the sole reason i carry. i have a few s and w shirts and things but i rarely wear them out. i dress with my 45 concealed. you would never know its there. and like yourself i never get this. now whether it is stupidity on the leo's part or just some dainty scared female, i just really dont have time for the hassel. i have on the other hand carried open, do it rarely, but i do on occasion. but when i do i have my permit more easily accessible and know that this could be something i could be faced with. knowing in the end i am right, but i could get the same thing this dude got before it is all settled:blush:. lets face it i know some leo's that really know their stuff and i know some that are really on the other end of that spectrum. we all work with both of these kind of people every day. leo's are no diffrent they are just like us they are supposed to know their stuff, but just like the dude that undercooked your steak, maybe some of them dont know their job as well as they should.

[DaveTN]

Dave,

I am not saying that you are REQUIRED to write a ticket to a cop or their family. All I am saying is that as a cop you shouldn't EXPECT to NOT get a ticket.

Perk or not, Police officers should be held to the SAME or HIGHER standard as regular citizen. Preferably just the SAME standard and if you as a police officer write me a ticket for going 20 over the limit and one of your police officer friends does the exact same thing, you should write him a ticket too.

My Police Officer Friends maneuvered with me in pursuits over 100 <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>MPH</st1:stockticker>, they had my back on family fights, man with a gun calls and traffic stops, their response time could be the deciding factor of whether I lived or died on an Officer needs assistance call. Now… I know this won’t be very popular but would I write one of those guys on a simple speeding charge? Not in this life time.

<O:p</O:p

That didn’t apply to other cops that I didn’t know though.

<O:p</O:p

[BenS]

Huh. I talk to that guy about every time I go into CCA. Small world.

[Marswolf]

For some time I've argued that for traffic offenses, if someone isn't doing something to jeopardize public safety enough to be taken to jail, that they should be ignored. But that would dry up the revenue stream.