Knoxville PD apologizes for open carry incident in Wal-Mart

[molonlabetn]

One of the popular arguments for Open-Carry is very similar to having an ADT sign, or a "Beware of Dog" sign in your front yard. It may be just as effective to let either of those things be a rude surprise to someone trying to break into the house... but has certainly proven to deter many before they even attempt it. And in the cases of a determined criminal, the mode of carry will matter zilch. I'd much rather be able to get to it quickly.

Tactical disadvantage? Pure speculation in the absence of evidence.

[The Rabbi]

One of the popular arguments for Open-Carry is very similar to having an ADT sign, or a "Beware of Dog" sign in your front yard. It may be just as effective to let either of those things be a rude surprise to someone trying to break into the house... but has certainly proven to deter many before they even attempt it. And in the cases of a determined criminal, the mode of carry will matter zilch. I'd much rather be able to get to it quickly.

Tactical disadvantage? Pure speculation in the absence of evidence.

Actually they're not similar in any way shape or form.

And pretty much all of it is speculation because none of this happens all that often.

[molonlabetn]

Actually they're not similar in any way shape or form.

And pretty much all of it is speculation because none of this happens all that often.

How is either one anything other than the visible existence of a legal form of protection which could cause harm to someone who disregarded it? Or is it 'tactically superior' to conceal the fact that you have a guard dog, to let the dog get the drop on them ?

Do "Beware of Dog" signs cause more dog-nappings? Uhhhh... no.

[The Rabbi]

They are in no way similar. Not at all.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

No probably not more dognappings, but the sign gives intel and prior warning that otherwise the BGs would not so easily have. A little anti freeze marinated hamburger meat and the dog is no longer a problem. Or a can of mace for Spot. Neither of which would the BG be likely to bring had you not been advertising the fact that he would need them.

[DaveTN]

Tactical disadvantage? Pure speculation in the absence of evidence.

I haven’t filled out a Police report in a long time, but I would be willing to bet that there is not a box to check if either party had a carry permit and if it was concealed or open.

<O:p</O:p

Common sense and training will tell you if open carry puts you at a tactical disadvantage. Would it be more than pure speculation if every firearms trainer you knew said it’s bad tactically? Do you know a single firearms trainer that advocates open carry at the mall?

</O:p

[Mike.357]

OC vs. CC

There is a time and a place for everything, rarely is everyplace where you should do something all the time.

[Schadenfreude]

For all of you who claim to open carry all or most of the time, do you know what to do if someone grabs your gun from behind or in any other way?

Do you carry some sort of retention holster?

Do you train for this scenario?

[DaveTN]

Invoking the deity is the surest way to lose the argument.

As for the other, that comes from the Declaration of Independence, which is not binding law here. It also invokes the idea of "natural rights" which are unproven.

Tell that to the next POTUS.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2318

[Marswolf]

Hey, just on a side note. I know this guy, and he is credible. I bought one of my guns from him. On a side note, he open carries all the time. One day I was in there and he was talking about other instances when he was harassed for OC. Before I read the article, and when I read the thread, this was the first guy I thought of because I know how much he OC's

Interesting note. Sounds like he goes out of his way to get "harassed".

I don't know him. Might have to come down and go shopping to meet him. I did hear one report about him from a Knoxville LE friend on another board. Basically he said he knew the "kid" and that he is a "prick." One of the reasons this officer doesn't go to Coal Creek very often. He said the Coal Creek guy was the kind of person who shoves his rights in your face just cause he can. Says he isn't surprised the guy would pull this crap.

Puts a bit of a different slant on the story. Any of the rest of you know him?

[The Rabbi]

Tell that to the next POTUS.

http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2318

What does Hillary care about rights or the Declaration of Independence?

[towerclimber37]

Tower, that link won't work

try it now..

www.thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com

[Guest jackdog]

tower I just fell off my chair lmao.

Thanks man

[Marswolf]

I'll have to share that, Tower.

A bit more on the guy at CC who got "harassed." Word around KPD is that the gun was only part of the problem. The guy copped a real attitude, which seems to be consistent with what I am hearing about him here. If you are a cop who has someone with an attitude and a gun, you have a problem.

Truth tends to come out in the interplay of facts. My conclusion is that the cop was wrong to have stopped the guy for open carry. But the guy carrying is a twerp who doesn't carry for protection but for false machismo. Exactly the kind of person who should not carry, either open or concealed.

[molonlabetn]

I haven’t filled out a Police report in a long time, but I would be willing to bet that there is not a box to check if either party had a carry permit and if it was concealed or open.

<O:p</O:p

Common sense and training will tell you if open carry puts you at a tactical disadvantage. Would it be more than pure speculation if every firearms trainer you knew said it’s bad tactically? Do you know a single firearms trainer that advocates open carry at the mall?

</O:p

I've run into a couple who have done it.

It's just as much speculation as a driver safety instructor telling their student's not to drive a sports-car because they might get a ticket by drawing more attention simply due to appearance.

OC vs. CC

There is a time and a place for everything, rarely is everyplace where you should do something all the time.

Yes, exactly!

[molonlabetn]

I'll have to share that, Tower.

A bit more on the guy at CC who got "harassed." Word around KPD is that the gun was only part of the problem. The guy copped a real attitude, which seems to be consistent with what I am hearing about him here. If you are a cop who has someone with an attitude and a gun, you have a problem.

Truth tends to come out in the interplay of facts. My conclusion is that the cop was wrong to have stopped the guy for open carry. But the guy carrying is a twerp who doesn't carry for protection but for false machismo. Exactly the kind of person who should not carry, either open or concealed.

I'll buy that he may have an attitude problem, and I agree that is not a good combination to have when carrying a gun. But, is it proper police procedure to provoke and escalate a situation with a person who is doing nothing illegal, regardless of their fondness for police 'authoritai'? Methinks that it would take a LEO with a power complex of his own to bring that situation to this conclusion.

[TGO David]

I'll buy that he may have an attitude problem, and I agree that is not a good combination to have when carrying a gun. But, is it proper police procedure to provoke and escalate a situation with a person who is doing nothing illegal, regardless of their fondness for police 'authoritai'? Methinks that it would take a LEO with a power complex of his own to bring that situation to this conclusion.

Devil's Advocate: Is it possible that these reports from the KPD (about the kid having a serious attitude with the cop in question) are being proliferated by the KPD to do some damage control?

I don't know the kid. Never met him, probably never will. All I know is that he seems to have gotten rough handling from an overzealous LEO who apparently DID have an attitude about open carry, who threatened to find a reason to file charges against a legally armed citizen, and then who subsequently tried to side-step the issue by claiming that his former state of residence and employment didn't allow open carry -- a claim that we've also proven is untrue because that state DOES allow open carry.

If I were the KPD public relations machine, I'd be telling my officers to talk up how much the citizen (kid) was an arrogant ass too. It makes you look a little less bad.

[creeky]

It would be interesting to see Wal-Mart's footage form their cameras as well as statements from people standing around.

[Marswolf]

Devil's Advocate: Is it possible that these reports from the KPD (about the kid having a serious attitude with the cop in question) are being proliferated by the KPD to do some damage control?

Nope. As far as I know it's just internal talk.

I think what we have is a cop who didn't know the law and a subject who likes to exasperate a situation to make him think he has balls.

[TGO David]

Nope. As far as I know it's just internal talk.

I think what we have is a cop who didn't know the law and a subject who likes to exasperate a situation to make him think he has balls.

I like it. It's a middle of the road theory that probably most closely approximates the truth of the thing. You should get into politics.

[saintsfanbrian]

He is in politics, he just can't talk about it. Sometimes it's better that we don't know what Mars is up to.

[Mike.357]

Who are you Mars? The mayor or something

[saintsfanbrian]

I wish he were the mayor in this F.I.N.E. city I live in.

[The Rabbi]

Who are you Mars? The mayor or something

I might as well out him.

Mars is actually Ned Ray McWhorter.

Sorry, Mars.

[Marswolf]

You should get into politics.

NOW YOU'VE DONE IT!!!

I'd like to be King of the Forest and dictate how things should be done. I'm still up for taking over a Caribbean island country if anyone wants to help.

I've done a bit more thinking about the initial newspaper report of this incident. Officer Greene knew Ohio has open carry even without a permit. I'm betting he knew Tennessee has it with a permit. He lied about why he stopped the CC guy. He got caught and he lied. (And Internal Affairs let him get away with it)

I'm betting that his jerk radar went off and he made a bad decision to talk to the subject - which was fine to determine if the packer had a permit. Perfectly proper under Tennessee Code. Perfectly proper under police procedure. Jerk + gun = problem. Subject decided to be a smart-ass and pissed off the cop who escalated the matter.

In short, it looks to me like we actually have two jerks in this situation. One is an officer and the other is an idiot member of the public who thinks he's being cool by OCing.