Knoxville PD apologizes for open carry incident in Wal-Mart

[The Rabbi]

So what do you guys think…. Should I get a .45ACP or a 9MM?

Fortunately Gd is merciful and you can buy revolvers in both calibers.

[Marswolf]

You know one of the reasons that Glocks became so popular as LE weapons? The cocked and locked 1911s that a lot of departments used scared the public with that cocked hammer. No one questioned whether the cops should have guns, but they did get squeamish about those hammers. So, when something reliable and accurate came along at a reasonable price that got rid of the hammer, departments started switching. The gun they ended up with wasn't more safe than the cocked and unlocked 1911, it was just without a hammer.

Sooner or later some soccer moms are going to become afraid of "cowboys" wearing guns in Wal-Mart and start pressuring their state representatives to do something about it. And that state will do something about it. Even my wife, who has a LE background and sees me OC all the time as part of my job thinks that people who do so without good reason are cowboys. As some people have pointed out, it isn't a "right" if you have to get a permit to exercise it, regardless of whether all the constitutions on earth say it is a right.

The Tennessee law was changed from CC to OC to prevent some cop, on instructions from his anti-carry boss, from arresting us for inadvertently exposing our concealed handgun. But you guys just keep exercising your "right" to open carry until it is taken away from you.

[The Rabbi]

Which departments regularly issued 1911s??

AFAIK, (and it was the case here in MNPD) the progression was: Smith Model 10/19/64/66 to Smith 9mm to Glock 9mm to Glock 22. Obviously there was some variation but I am not aware of any depts that commonly issued 1911s, even though a few might have allowed them for personal duty weapons.

The issue, afaik, is that a single action gun tends to go off under stress when you don't want it.

[waynesan]

So what do you guys think…. Should I get a .45ACP or a 9MM?

I would get a .45ACP for OC

I would get a 9MM for CC

[Guest Hyaloid]

You know one of the reasons that Glocks became so popular as LE weapons? The cocked and locked 1911s that a lot of departments used scared the public with that cocked hammer. No one questioned whether the cops should have guns, but they did get squeamish about those hammers. So, when something reliable and accurate came along at a reasonable price that got rid of the hammer, departments started switching. The gun they ended up with wasn't more safe than the cocked and unlocked 1911, it was just without a hammer.

Sooner or later some soccer moms are going to become afraid of "cowboys" wearing guns in Wal-Mart and start pressuring their state representatives to do something about it. And that state will do something about it. Even my wife, who has a LE background and sees me OC all the time as part of my job thinks that people who do so without good reason are cowboys. As some people have pointed out, it isn't a "right" if you have to get a permit to exercise it, regardless of whether all the constitutions on earth say it is a right.

The Tennessee law was changed from CC to OC to prevent some cop, on instructions from his anti-carry boss, from arresting us for inadvertently exposing our concealed handgun. But you guys just keep exercising your "right" to open carry until it is taken away from you.

See.. now THAT is an argument against OC in Tennessee. No attacks, no stereotyping or schoolyard antics.

I may disagree with some of what Marswolf wrote, but I can respect and understand the validity of this particular argument against OC in the state of Tennessee.

[TGO David]

I submit to you luke that perhaps out of all that training you do, you spend some time in a class room where the subject is tact and courtesy.

I'm not taking sides here because I like to think that we're all friends at some basic level... but I have to say this: I didn't see anything in Cruel Hand's posts that was seriously lacking in tact. It read like a no B.S., no punches pulled assessment of one man's feelings on the issues.

I like it when I don't have to read between the lines with people and I didn't have to read between the lines with anything he said. While some of his points may not set well with all readers, I found the candor to be refreshing.

Perhaps the reason you think he lacked tact and courtesy is because you didn't agree with him. Not because he was rude.

[The Rabbi]

Attributing base motives to people and belittling them is pretty rude.

That said,

I think the issue here is actually a very deep one, which might account for the rancour.

People who CC feel that they can best hold on to their rights by CC-ing, going below the radar.

People who OC feel they can best hold on to their rights by OC-ing, making normative something that currently is looked on as outside the mainstream.

Both groups believe they are furthering the gun rights agenda. Both groups care passionately about gun rights.

But little is accomplished by bashing each other. Laying out reasonable arguments is one thing. Characterizing people as "cowboys" and "defeatists" is another.

[Guest Hyaloid]

I'm not taking sides here because I like to think that we're all friends at some basic level... but I have to say this: I didn't see anything in Cruel Hand's posts that was seriously lacking in tact. It read like a no B.S., no punches pulled assessment of one man's feelings on the issues.

I like it when I don't have to read between the lines with people and I didn't have to read between the lines with anything he said. While some of his points may not set well with all readers, I found the candor to be refreshing.

Perhaps the reason you think he lacked tact and courtesy is because you didn't agree with him. Not because he was rude.

He equated those who would OC to "cowboys", "kids", "show-offs" among others and went off on a rant when someone dared to disagree with him.

I found it a bit... rude. I suppose is the word I am looking for.

But, hey, that's just me. It's easy to come across poorly in a forum format, God knows I do many times.

I am all for discussing and debating, but in re-reading everything, I stand behind my original assessment. I would much rather debate the issues, rather than cast wide stereotypical emotionally based arguments, let's leave that to the Presidential debates.

If I were to post that anyone who wanted to carry a gun, in ANY manner, was nothing more than a cop wannabe who wanted nothing more than to be a 'cowboy' and shoot someone over a traffic altercation, I would be railroaded off of the forum. Oh, and don't forget the golden oldie, anyone who would carry a weapon is obviously compensating for a small penis. That's always a crowd favorite.

It's the same type of argument, no facts, no logic, just assumptions and application of stereotypes.

I don't mean any of this as an attack on Mr. Luke at all, just on the type of argument presented. I am glad we have motivated people like him on our side, sincerely.

I will concede the point that there are OCers who probably do act in those stereotypical ways. I can also see where it can be a liability to OC irresponsibly or wrecklessly, and without very careful planning or thoughtfulness behind it, how it can hurt the 'right' to bear arms in Tennessee. But, we have to likewise be carreful not to roll over and acquiesce to unreasonable demands of the ignorant masses, and sometimes that spirit of 'it's my right I'll do it no matter what' is a good thing to have on our side too.

I don't have all the answers. But, I would hope we can discuss without 'eating our own', and if necessary, just agree to disagree.

<-- He's new too!

[TGO David]

I see your and the Rabbi's points on that. I guess I needed to go back and re-read the posts a little more closely.

Oh, and may get replaced with a different graphic. I found one that's a little better.

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Thanks Tungsten.

Apparently if I had put up the rant sign it would have been more palatable.

I was not the one who questioned someone's love of liberty or suggested that they would limit 1st 2nd or 4th ammendment rights. That is what set off my rant.But I also qualified in my post that if those stereotypes did not apply to any individuals here, then they should not take it to mean them.

It just gets old when people who DO NOT know you question how committed you are to the cause because you don't open carry or hint that you don't gaurd the other liberties just as closely because you don't wear the "I will not be subjugated" badge of a gun openly carried on your hip. From my experience most folks who make that argument don't even know where their local voting precinct is...........

If someone wants to open carry ...fine. BUt then again they don't answer to me anyways. Do what you want. Live long and prosper. But please be aware that you WILL be reacted to differently in public by most members of society -unless you live in a rural area. But deep down (JUST MY OPINION) I think they know that and like it on some level. And again if that does NOT apply to you then there is no reason to get upset. Just posting my HONEST opinion that was not formulated overnight.

I have carried with a permit for 10 years. I have taught for almost that long. I've worked in the shooting industry for 8 years. So I spend most of my time in the company of gun carriers of one stripe or another. And there ARE certain "patterns " or "characteristics" that are noticeable. But one last time. If those do not apply to folks here then .....GREAT! But I can only go by my experience.

Have a wonderful day!

[Guest Hyaloid]

Hey, about this for an interesting example. It's kinda like OCing

My wife breastfeeds. She still sequesters herself in a restroom or in our vehicle when we are in public, despite the fact that she has a right to feed our baby in public. Why? Partially because when she was little, if HER mom saw someone breastfeeding in public, she would tell my wife that they were only doing that to 'show off' or so that everyone would look at them. So, now my wife is afraid to feed our child in public (even though NOTHING shows), because she is afraid someone will be offended, and she doesn't want to come across as 'looking for attention', introvert that she is.

100 years ago, no one would have batted an eye. It was how we were made to feed our infants!

What is the parallel? Both OCing and BFing used to be socially acceptable. Public opinion changed and both became 'taboo', and stereotypes are perpetuated by an uninformed public, despite the legality of each.

[The Rabbi]

Breastfeeding was never acceptable, esp not 100 years ago. My grandmother (born 1892) would have been shocked to see someone do that on the street.

As for "natural", defecating is natural too, but I dont think people ought to do that out in public.

I don't see any parallels between the two.

[Guest Hyaloid]

Breastfeeding was never acceptable, esp not 100 years ago. My grandmother (born 1892) would have been shocked to see someone do that on the street.

As for "natural", defecating is natural too, but I dont think people ought to do that out in public.

I don't see any parallels between the two.

--edited to add--

I'll doubt there was a point in time in which it wasn't acceptable... we haven't had store bought formula forever. But, please dear God, let's not turn this into a debate of OCing boobies.

--edit--

The parallel is a stretch, I'll agree, and was mostly intended to be tongue in cheek. Comparing breastfeeding to defecation is a nice touch though... I'm sure my wife'll LOVE that!

Plus, it diverts the discussion from OCing.. I thought you'd appreciate the diversion!

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Neither was open carry. By the 1860s and 70s there were laws on the books against open carry in towns pretty much EVERYWHERE. Only in frontier towns was it even remotely acceptable to open carry-unless you were a cop. You cannot get a true view of history by watching western movies. Sure folks open carried out on the range. But in towns they covered 'em up or surrendered 'em or paid a fine and went to jail!

[Guest Hyaloid]

Have a wonderful day!

You to!

[The Rabbi]

--edited to add--

I'll doubt there was a point in time in which it wasn't acceptable... we haven't had store bought formula forever. But, please dear God, let's not turn this into a debate of OCing boobies.

--edit--

The parallel is a stretch, I'll agree, and was mostly intended to be tongue in cheek. Comparing breastfeeding to defecation is a nice touch though... I'm sure my wife'll LOVE that!

Plus, it diverts the discussion from OCing.. I thought you'd appreciate the diversion!

I will go on record as being in favor of OC'ing boobs.

No, wait, that didnt sound right....

[saintsfanbrian]

I am all for OC'ing boobs too, as long as they aren't man boobs.

[molonlabetn]

There will always be those who choose to flash their breasts in public... and there will always be those who choose to be visibly armed. All of the temporary regulations this government can put on paper will not change thousands of years of human nature.

[Guest CrazyLincoln]

We totally need a rally with a bunch of obviously armed topless women IMHO.

[towerclimber37]

Thanks Tungsten.

Apparently if I had put up the rant sign it would have been more palatable.

I was not the one who questioned someone's love of liberty or suggested that they would limit 1st 2nd or 4th ammendment rights. That is what set off my rant.

I guess I could have worded mine with a more general descriptive, like "someone" instead of "you". I will pay more attention to that in the future. If I offended, I apologize.

I stated that I carry CC where I deem it necessary..and make no mistake! my 2nd favorite birthday present is an IWB holster (don hume).

I DO live in a rural environment/small town. I don't really have an ego where that sort of thing is concerned..I'm not out to frighten anyone, nor am I here to please them either.

were I living in a socialist country like New Jersey I would absolutely toe the line for fear of a beatdown by the law enforcemend droids.

as it is, I live in a free state, where, because of southern morals and social standards, we require our Police officers to be courteous to citizens who are not breaking the law and comport themselves with a modicum of responsibility towards their job. We also enforce that responsibility! When one of those droids moves down here and attempts the behavior that is an acceptable social norm "up north" we have a situation like the one that generated this thread. I have a feeling his superiors don't like him very much right now and won't for the foreseeable future. If we don't insist on our rights, like this man did by making a complaint, how long do you think it would take for people to make carrying a firearm with a permit illegal?

I believe that we cannot affect change without challenging the societal norms. Not in a flashy way..but in a respectful manner, using the venues provided. I also believe that if I'm minding my own business, not breaking any laws, there's no reason for anyone to bother me. Reality is what we make it.

In a less than weird world, G.Britain would have won the war if independance...but since we used our (weak argument) natural right to beg succor from our God we won, making a percieved moral outrage (to Britain) the norm.

I love a debate and sometimes I get called on it. I don't mind learning at all..as a matter of fact I learned something new the other day and publicly stated that I was incorrect...and amended both my way of thinking AND my actions. I'm grown and can take my lumps.

[molonlabetn]

We totally need a rally with a bunch of obviously armed topless women IMHO.

Now the question should be... What will people notice first, that they are topless, or they are armed?

[Cruel Hand Luke]

Towerclimber,

We agree MUCH more than we disagree. I thought the cop should have been suspended for a couple of days. If you are going to enforce the law then you might need to know the law..... And you DO NOT threaten citizens with falsifying probable cause to "keep them in line". That is a disservice to good cops everywhere.

And while I do not often carry openly I DO, HAVE and WILL continue to fight for the right to do so if one chooses to carry that way.

But from a purely practical standpoint just untucking his shirt so that the gun was covered would likely have kept this from happening......

[towerclimber37]

true! but thats why the OC law was put in place..just for this sort of occurrence. The young fella said he forgot to untuck it.

I've met that fella. had a nice conversation with him one day. he was very courteous quite knowledgable and struck me as a fella that wasn't a peacock who insisted on a parade. he was quiet, thoughtful and knowledgeable.

I believe him...and you're right about the disservice to officers everywhere.

check this out...

www.blogspot.thelawdogfiles.com

scroll down to the second post down.

[Guest GregRN]

I am all for OC'ing boobs too, as long as they aren't man boobs.

I guess that leaves me out.

[dralarms]

Tower, that link won't work